Incident on Thameslink 25/11/18 - man pouring 'petrol' on himself and train

[Sebastian O]

Not really.

The Mental Capacity Act covers this.

Basically if you lack capacity to act in your best interests you can be detained until you gain capacity, or someone does it for you.

It's to stop people falling between the gaps. S136 covers people in a public place. The MCA covers everywhere.

As long as the person who is detaining you is acting in your best interests at the time then they are covered.

Generally paramedics and police officers aren't trained to diagnose mental health conditions. They can only judge it as they see it. And if in any doubt - detain and let a professional expert decide.

The MCA is only used to assess someone’s capacity for treatment of medical conditions.

The act works to ensure when a patient receives treatment, that it is in their best interests and undertaken in the least restrictive method.

We don’t ‘detain’ people as healthcare professionals, otherwise we would be carting every Tom, Dick and Harry out of care homes. There is no ‘detention’, it’s the most appropriate care to be provided to the patient.

 

[bramling]

Assumed there were some. But if not, the doors are nice and wide, it's not like you're far away from a door wherever you are.

Egress onto the track as never as safe as into another carriage. ISTR a passenger was killed egressing from an HST in the 1990s. There was some sort of fire on board the HST, and the passenger jumped down into the path of another train.

 

[Eccles1983]

The MCA is only used to assess someone’s capacity for treatment of medical conditions.

The act works to ensure when a patient receives treatment, that it is in their best interests and undertaken in the least restrictive method.

We don’t ‘detain’ people as healthcare professionals, otherwise we would be carting every Tom, Dick and Harry out of care homes. There is no ‘detention’, it’s the most appropriate care to be provided to the patient.

Well I have used it to take people to hospital, who were suffering from a mental illness and were deemed to be in need of immediate care, but refused to go.

The MCA covered this, as previously someone threatening self harm in a property could not be taken under s136 as its clearly only for use in a public place.

And it is detention - Once decided on using 136 or MCA then they are detained until deemed fit or removed from said act - As both acts carry a use of force element the premise of using force is for detaining them for removal to a suitable place of safety. Otherwise the act is meaningless.

 

[Tom Quinne]

I would imagine he'd be detained under the Mental Health Act. I seem to recall a similar incident on a London Midland a few years back, though I believe that actually waa petrol.

Petrol yes, unsurprisingly she died as a result of her injuries. Happened as the trains approached Leighton Buzzard, the Guard did a fantastic job evacuating the train which was full of thick black smoke, and did his best for the poor lady concerned.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Why are so many in this thread jumping to the conclusion that walkthrough carriage designs are somehow less safe? Just another opportunity to criticise the 700s?

I am sure a whole lot of effort went in to ensuring they are, safety standards are far more rigorous than they used to be years ago, after all. Old carriages are practically tinderboxes. Not so much with newer stock - it seems like the 700s have practically no flammable materials in their design (I'm sure the seat covers are flame retardant), but there's no wood or carpet.

Perhaps being able to move up and down the train to get clear of the fire more than compensates for there not being doors between carriages? If smoke becomes a real issue through the whole length of the train, surely passengers can open the doors or smash the windows using the emergency hammers? Being able to move to a door that is not engulfed in smoke would be a real advantage in that situation.

Not an excuse to criticise the 700s. Genuine enquiry as to whether the HVAC continues to work if there's no traction current. Then there's the instruction that drivers cut the unit out if the juice goes from underneath them - does the HVAC remain on in that situation?
Surely passengers are far more likely to self evacuate if they see a fire on a train and there's no physical barrier between them and the fire?

 

[jon0844]

I would hope that the chances of a fire on a 700 is very slim (as on any EMU) but it is a valid question that I am not sure anyone could answer. On a DOO train, could the driver get back to close the gangway doors if there's a fire? Maybe there will be other staff on the train who could, but would an RPO (for example) know how to do it? If they were trained, would they remember when it may be years before it's ever needed?

And what will work when the power has been cut is another valid question.

 

[bramling]

I would hope that the chances of a fire on a 700 is very slim (as on any EMU) but it is a valid question that I am not sure anyone could answer. On a DOO train, could the driver get back to close the gangway doors if there's a fire? Maybe there will be other staff on the train who could, but would an RPO (for example) know how to do it? If they were trained, would they remember when it may be years before it's ever needed?

And what will work when the power has been cut is another valid question.

Whilst it's not necessarily something I'd lose a massive amount of sleep over, it's another thing to add to the list of negative points about these trains.

The prospect of a Potters Bar style high-speed derailment involving vehicles becoming separated from the train formation fills me with horror - perhaps a carriage full of people being tipped out of the end to their likely deaths.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Whilst it's not necessarily something I'd lose a massive amount of sleep over, it's another thing to add to the list of negative points about these trains.

The prospect of a Potters Bar style high-speed derailment involving vehicles becoming separated from the train formation fills me with horror - perhaps a carriage full of people being tipped out of the end to their likely deaths.

That I'd not considered. The lack of carriage ends are probably fine for lower speed London Overground and Underground operations, but 100mph+ is asking for trouble

 

[bramling]

That I'd not considered. The lack of carriage ends are probably fine for lower speed London Overground and Underground operations, but 100mph+ is asking for trouble

It does seem strange to go to so much trouble designing a vehicle body with features like laminated glass to contain people within the bodyshell in the event of an accident, but then to leave it essentially open at both ends. No doubt an exercise in risk management, but let's hope no one dies as a result of that decision.

 

[theironroad]

I would hope that the chances of a fire on a 700 is very slim (as on any EMU) but it is a valid question that I am not sure anyone could answer. On a DOO train, could the driver get back to close the gangway doors if there's a fire? Maybe there will be other staff on the train who could, but would an RPO (for example) know how to do it? If they were trained, would they remember when it may be years before it's ever needed?

And what will work when the power has been cut is another valid question.

What gangway doors? There are no internal doors except the drivers can and a small door into first class.

If there is no power supply to train (ac or DC) then the HVAC will not work. A limited battery supply will provide lighting and some control circuits for the driver including the cab radio and PA. Once battery goes, then there is nothing....

 

[ComUtoR]

What gangway doors? There are no internal doors except the drivers can and a small door into first class.

There are two sets of lockable fire doors. Jon is correct.

 

[theironroad]

There are two sets of lockable fire doors. Jon is correct.

Ok, apologies to Jon. Thought they were open throughout. Must admit ive not walked the length of one...

 

[GW43125]

There are two sets of lockable fire doors. Jon is correct.

Two? The only one I've found is between the two centremost carriages, where's the other?
And how does this help if the train is wedged (ie enough spare space to empty a carriage or two, but not 6)

 

[ComUtoR]

Two? The only one I've found is between the two centremost carriages,

There are 2 on an 8-Car RLU Neither are in the centremost carriage. Is the one you found on a 12-Car FLU ?

 

[GW43125]

There are 2 on an 8-Car RLU Neither are in the centremost carriage. Is the one you found on a 12-Car FLU ?

Most likely. Either way, whereabouts are they if you don't mind me asking?

 

[ComUtoR]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24759744@N02/12209744316

Picture credit to plcd1 (flickr)

From the link you can see the diagram layout of each unit. In both an RLU and FLU you can see 2x "deployable doors" That is where they are located. Neither are in the centremost carriage. What have you seen that you considered to be a gangway door ?

 

[jon0844]

It should be noted the 717s don't have these, but do have the safety curtains to attach to the doors to allow ventilation (by using the egress to open the door) in other circumstances.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Egress onto the track as never as safe as into another carriage. ISTR a passenger was killed egressing from an HST in the 1990s. There was some sort of fire on board the HST, and the passenger jumped down into the path of another train.

You can't really say never as it is all down to situation and circumstance - sometimes it is the only option as per the Bounds Green incident for instance.
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=1167

 

[Surreytraveller]

We don’t ‘detain’ people as healthcare professionals, otherwise we would be carting every Tom, Dick and Harry out of care homes. There is no ‘detention’, it’s the most appropriate care to be provided to the patient.

Surely its a matter of perspective? If a person is free to go, they are not detained. If they are not free to go, then they are detained. There is probably some specific legal definition, but from the patient's perspective, that's it in a nutshell?

 

[bramling]

You can't really say never as it is all down to situation and circumstance - sometimes it is the only option as per the Bounds Green incident for instance.
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=1167

That's a fair point. I'd amend my wording to say it's "normally" safer to remain on the train and go to another carriage, which IIRC pretty much exactly aligns with the safety notices found on trains.

I suspect that, some time or other, there's going to be an incident on a walk-through train where something happens and the walk-through design contributes to the severity of the incident. Let's all hope people don't lose their lives as a result.