Incident with a fraud prevention officer at Stevenage (Govia Thameslink Railway)

[Lucy Keynes]

I was travelling from Knebworth to Stevenage today (£3.20 return fare) as I do frequently. As I have in the past kept my debit card in the same pocket as keys, the chip has become somewhat scuffed and as a result can be a bit hit and miss with regards to whether it works on the ticket machines at Knebworth or not (90% of the time it's fine, 10% it can be a pain). Usually I will give it two or three goes on each machine and if it still doesn't work, take a video of me attempting to pay for the ticket by both contactless payment and by inserting my card into the machine which show the relevant error messages and then once I board the train, walk up and down looking for a revenue protection inspector, explain the situation, show them the video and buy a ticket using one of their portable card machines to pay (far more reliable from some reason) - or if there isn't an inspector present, buy the relevant ticket at my destination.

The most recent time this happened (a couple of weeks ago) the inspector told me it wasn't necessary to record a video and that I could just explain the situation so stopped.

Today I travelled from Knebworth to Stevenage (no inspector on the train) and came out of the lift at the concourse level where there was a fraud prevention officer waiting who asked to see my ticket, at this point I had my debit card in my hand ready to try to buy a ticket from the machines at Stevenage, and I explained said situation. He said that I had committed a crime and could be prosecuted and took down my details, told me my rights (I didn't have to say anything but anything I did say could be given in evidence) and asked me a few questions. I explained the situation and he asked someone to radio through to Knebworth to see if there was a problem with the ticket machines (again, it's not an issue with the machines at Knebworth per se, more my card on the machines), and asked me if I'd attempted to travel without buying a ticket, I said no, asked if I had the means to pay, I said yes, and a couple of other things.

He said I would get a letter in due course and now I'm concerned I'm going to get prosecuted for a genuine mistake. Admittedly I should have replaced the card ages ago but I haven't because I've finally learned the 16 digit number on the front so don't want to have to start again anew, what do you think is going to happen and what should I do if I am threatened with prosecution? I've not been fined on Great Northern / Thameslink in the three and a half years I've been living in Hertfordshire, this is my first time, but I'm admittedly somewhat scared.

 

[londonboi198o5]

1st off don’t be scared what’s done is done and you can’t change that now.

Normally what happens you will receive a letter asking you for your version of the story. At this point it is best to be honest and tell them exactly what happened.

It could be a a matter of weeks/days before you hear anything so best to write stuff down on a piece of paper even the small details while it is still fresh in your memory so when the time comes to write your return back it is all in front of you.

Best thing to do at the moment is to get the card changed by your bank as soon as you can to avoid any more hassle to be honest. Bank cards only last 3 years before they are re issued anyway and the long number will be different when the time comes for a new card.

 

[richw]

If your card still works in other machines, it does imply even though your card is worn that their machine card reader is likely needing a clean, or does have a fault.

Always take a photo of the error message just because of how the railway work and certain staff mentality is to stitch up the passenger and the passenger is always dishonest!

 

[Haywain]

The aggravating factor in this is your use of the lift at Stevenage. As the lift comes out on the 'wrong' side of the barriers this could easily be seen as avoiding the need to hold a ticket. This isn't to say you wouldn't have been reported if you had used the stairs but your willingness to buy a ticket might have been given greater credibility.

 

[MikeWh]

Please can we keep this thread of relevance to the OPs immediate situation. Discussion about whether 16-digit card numbers change on re-issue really isn't relevant, so the posts have been removed.

 

[AmicableMan]

The use of the lift at Stevenage negates the needs to pass through an ATG or speak to a member of staff before leaving the station. If you'd gone up the stairs and spoken to a member of gateline staff and explained the situation may have been dealt with differently.

The fraud teams that work for Govia, target specific areas or stations where there is a revenue loss. It's likely that the lifts at Stevenage would've been targeted as revenue literally walks out of the door along the bridge and out.

The responsibility as a passenger is to ensure that you have a valid rail ticket at all times, could you have not used another card or cash to purchase a ticket?

You'll likely be sent a letter asking for your version of events and it would be advisable to explain what happened and ask whether the matter could be resolved without court action.

 

[furlong]

Put them on notice to retain any CCTV at your origin station, and ticket machine logs that will show the aborted transactions when your payment fails, to confirm your story. How many times did you try? How many machines are there and did you try them all? Can you identify the staff who gave you the previous advice which you acted upon? (E.g. if they sold you a ticket which you still have, the reference numbers on it should enable the company to find them so they can be interviewed or provide a statement.)

What you may be up against is whether the company believes - at any point in time on this particular journey - your actions were those of someone demonstrating an intention not to pay for the journey. Or in other words, a person intending to pay would have acted differently from you at some point in time.

 

[Haywain]

Put them on notice to retain any CCTV at your origin station, and ticket machine logs that will show the aborted transactions when your payment fails, to confirm your story.

While CCTV might show someone attempting to use a TVM, I doubt very much that it will show why no ticket was obtained. It could be from intentionally using an out of date or otherwise invalid card, or entering an incorrect PIN just as easily as it could be a faulty card.

 

[furlong]

Usually I will give it two or three goes on each machine

But what will the evidence show on this specific occasion?

 

[richw]

While CCTV might show someone attempting to use a TVM, I doubt very much that it will show why no ticket was obtained. It could be from intentionally using an out of date or otherwise invalid card, or entering an incorrect PIN just as easily as it could be a faulty card.

Or the more common. No funds declined!

 

[gordonthemoron]

Debit/Credit cards which are used frequently often don't work for the full 3 years, especially the contactless bit

 

[Urban Gateline]

The use of the lift at Stevenage negates the needs to pass through an ATG or speak to a member of staff before leaving the station. If you'd gone up the stairs and spoken to a member of gateline staff and explained the situation may have been dealt with differently.

The fraud teams that work for Govia, target specific areas or stations where there is a revenue loss. It's likely that the lifts at Stevenage would've been targeted as revenue literally walks out of the door along the bridge and out.

The responsibility as a passenger is to ensure that you have a valid rail ticket at all times, could you have not used another card or cash to purchase a ticket?

You'll likely be sent a letter asking for your version of events and it would be advisable to explain what happened and ask whether the matter could be resolved without court action.

Indeed, as soon as I read the OP saying they used the lift to exit the platforms at Stevenage I thought the same, it's amazing how many seemingly able-bodied passengers use the lift to access or leave the platforms! Unless the OP had a lot of luggage or was in some way disabled that she couldn't use the stairs then I don't have much sympathy for their plight. The Revenue officer would most likely be thinking would this passenger have paid or just walked off if I wasn't here, unfortunately at Stevenage the latter is very common and I don't blame them for taking a tough stance against people caught out like this.

 

[robbeech]

Why would your keys affect the contactless ability of the card. I can understand scratching the chip, perhaps, but I don’t see why it would affect both methods of use. Does the contactless facility of your card work elsewhere ?

 

[Haywain]

Why would your keys affect the contactless ability of the card. I can understand scratching the chip, perhaps, but I don’t see why it would affect both methods of use. Does the contactless facility of your card work elsewhere ?

I think the OP is just conflating the presence of the chip on the card with the ability to carry out contactless transactions.

 

[LCC106]

Would it help the OP at all if she still had videos of attempting to buy tickets on previous occasions and failing to do so on her phone?

 

[Haywain]

Would it help the OP at all if she still had videos of attempting to buy tickets on previous occasions and failing to do so on her phone?

No, in no way at all. If anything, it could show that the OP was aware that they had a faulty card and could be seen to show that continuing to 'try' and use it was a means of avoiding payment.

I think until the OP returns there is little that can be said to provide more assistance in this matter.

 

[js1000]

The use of the lift at Stevenage negates the needs to pass through an ATG or speak to a member of staff before leaving the station. If you'd gone up the stairs and spoken to a member of gateline staff and explained the situation may have been dealt with differently.

The fraud teams that work for Govia, target specific areas or stations where there is a revenue loss. It's likely that the lifts at Stevenage would've been targeted as revenue literally walks out of the door along the bridge and out.

The responsibility as a passenger is to ensure that you have a valid rail ticket at all times, could you have not used another card or cash to purchase a ticket?

You'll likely be sent a letter asking for your version of events and it would be advisable to explain what happened and ask whether the matter could be resolved without court action.

It would seem logical that some discretion could be applied if the passenger encountered a problem before boarding when attempting to pay and wished to purchase a ticket at the destination. Sadly, they are trained to give a penalty fare or ask for your details - there is little discretion in the system so I never hold it against (honest) passengers who potentially could be wrongly penalised and look to avoid any form of interaction with such staff.

 

[bionic]

Usually I will give it two or three goes on each machine and if it still doesn't work, take a video of me attempting to pay for the ticket by both contactless payment and by inserting my card into the machine which show the relevant error messages and then once I board the train, walk up and down looking for a revenue protection inspector, explain the situation, show them the video and buy a ticket using one of their portable card machines to pay (far more reliable from some reason) - or if there isn't an inspector present, buy the relevant ticket at my destination.

Surely it's got to be less hassle to replace the card or to carry cash than to go through all that hassle every time you travel. You must have to get to the station very early to do all this, and presumably you don't travel in the mornings when the ticket office at Knebworth is staffed. And it's funny how your card works everywhere except ALL THE MACHINES at Knebworth. Then there's that little thing about what side of the barriers the lift at Stevenage takes you out.

I'm not judging you, saying you deliberately dodged your fare, or calling you a liar, but you have to admit that to the casual observer, or indeed an RPI who deals with this kind of thing daily, your actions might be construed as deliberate and premeditated fare evasion.

I like the way people come on here with these kind of tales all the time worrying about being prosecuted. I wonder if there is a forum for habitual shoplifters and burglars where they voice the same concerns after getting nicked for the first time?

 

[baz962]

Surely it's got to be less hassle to replace the card or to carry cash than to go through all that hassle every time you travel. You must have to get to the station very early to do all this, and presumably you don't travel in the mornings when the ticket office at Knebworth is staffed. And it's funny how your card works everywhere except ALL THE MACHINES at Knebworth. Then there's that little thing about what side of the barriers the lift at Stevenage takes you out.

I'm not judging you, saying you deliberately dodged your fare, or calling you a liar, but you have to admit that to the casual observer, or indeed an RPI who deals with this kind of thing daily, your actions might be construed as deliberate and premeditated fare evasion.

I like the way people come on here with these kind of tales all the time worrying about being prosecuted. I wonder if there is a forum for habitual shoplifters and burglars where they voice the same concerns after getting nicked for the first time?

Last paragraph is a bit harsh. Shoplifters and burglar's are committing a straight up crime. The rules and regulations on the railway are quite a mystery to some. I'm a train driver and even I still get stumped. I have a season ticket from my home station to the station nearest my depot. I'm still getting told by that toc's staff on some days I cannot break my journey and on other days and different staff I can .

 

[bionic]

Last paragraph is a bit harsh. Shoplifters and burglar's are committing a straight up crime. The rules and regulations on the railway are quite a mystery to some. I'm a train driver and even I still get stumped. I have a season ticket from my home station to the station nearest my depot. I'm still getting told by that toc's staff on some days I cannot break my journey and on other days and different staff I can .

I hear what you are saying. I'm referring to those people who are clearly bang to rights rather than someone who has been innocently caught out by ticket restrictions etc.

 

[RunawayTrain]

If you knew that your card was not reliable, it is your responsibility to either replace it, or to have a back up means of payment for your ticket.

 

[jon0844]

No, in no way at all. If anything, it could show that the OP was aware that they had a faulty card and could be seen to show that continuing to 'try' and use it was a means of avoiding payment.

Yes, it would seem to some as a brilliant way of only paying when challenged. Not replacing the card as soon as it failed the first time would certainly not look good.

The card would surely have to be very damaged to not work with contactless, as that would be down to an antenna inside the card, separate to the chip?

 

[jon0844]

It would seem logical that some discretion could be applied if the passenger encountered a problem before boarding when attempting to pay and wished to purchase a ticket at the destination. Sadly, they are trained to give a penalty fare or ask for your details - there is little discretion in the system so I never hold it against (honest) passengers who potentially could be wrongly penalised and look to avoid any form of interaction with such staff.

Seemingly able-bodied people going straight for a lift is surely a red flag. While disabilities aren't always visible, I am sure many people who are stopped are found to be without a ticket.

If the card was damaged, how were tickets sold later on? If the card worked on a RPIs handheld machine or any other ticket machine, that would surely set alarm bells ringing too.

The two TVMs at Knebworth are pretty new, and it seems very odd that both would have faulty card readers AND CPC readers - which are located at different positions on each machine.

Sorry if I'm not being helpful to the OP!

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The OP’s story does not ring true, I’m afraid. Any normal person with a card that worked only intermittently would surely get it replaced

 

[martinsh]

The OP’s story does not ring true, I’m afraid. Any normal person with a card that worked only intermittently would surely get it replaced

No they wouldn't ! I have a card that works 99% of the time, but is always rejected by one of the machines at my local station. Is it really worth the hassle of getting a new card just for that ?

 

[Deafdoggie]

The OP’s story does not ring true, I’m afraid. Any normal person with a card that worked only intermittently would surely get it replaced

If it is only one place it fails to work, that implies an issue with the place, not the card. A new card therefore may not even fix it.

 

[jon0844]

It seems unlikely a card would fail to work in TWO machines, including both the card reader AND the contactless reader on TWO machines. It seems particularly unlikely that no other users of said machines would have reported this, or that the train operator wouldn't have noticed a distinct lack of ticket sales.

The card would clearly have to be the issue, and would almost certainly have the same problems elsewhere. It should have been replaced. It would eventually get replaced anyway (by expiring), so keeping it because you have now memorised the card number seems like odd reasoning. It almost sounds like an excuse.

 

[Revilo]

I would also suggest that the OP doesn't keep his card in the same pocket as his keys in future!

 

[RJ]

Last paragraph is a bit harsh. Shoplifters and burglar's are committing a straight up crime. The rules and regulations on the railway are quite a mystery to some. I'm a train driver and even I still get stumped. I have a season ticket from my home station to the station nearest my depot. I'm still getting told by that toc's staff on some days I cannot break my journey and on other days and different staff I can .

The reverse of your season ticket should contain a reference to the National Rail Conditions of Travel. Have a look at them - they explain your break of journey privileges in full and you may find knowing what your ticket entitles you to will save you money.

Carrying out research like this negates the need to rely on other people for an opinion. People who may be talking nonsense, which sounds like the case here.

 

[baz962]

The reverse of your season ticket should contain a reference to the National Rail Conditions of Travel. Have a look at them - they explain your break of journey privileges in full and you may find knowing what your ticket entitles you to will save you money.

Carrying out research like this negates the need to rely on other people for an opinion. People who may be talking nonsense, which sounds like the case here.

Kind of proves my point though. Most people don't need to research , to know not to shoplift excetera. And the people that are telling me I can and then cannot are the staff of the toc , not just people with an opinion.