Incompetent Northern Rail Staff at Piccadilly

[Puffing Devil]

Again I've been asked to buy an Anytime ticket on arrival at Manchester because it's "Peak Time". (Arriving 1745 last night from Goostrey).

Discussion ensues and the fare is checked by a colleague, before I'm sold an Off-Peak ticket. (Goostrey is outwith the NR Peak Time boundary).

As I was (initially) denied a Duo ticket by a guard a couple of weeks ago, I'm wondering how many people are getting overcharged by undertrained staff?

There's no real incentive for NR to improve the training, as they would need to pay for the training and cut their revenue.

 

[furlong]

There's no real incentive for NR to improve the training, as they would need to pay for the training and cut their revenue.

So report your concerns to the ORR and ask them to investigate whether there is an ongoing breach of consumer law.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's no real incentive for NR to improve the training, as they would need to pay for the training and cut their revenue.

I've had such a refusal from a proper member of ticket office staff (not just one of these cheapo contractors) on GTR. And it was a flat refusal, too, no willingness to get the book out. He even gave me the refusal in writing, though sadly when I wrote in it was ignored and I was too busy to chase it up.

The training provided is clearly woeful on a national scale.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just as an aside you should make it clear it your post tile that NR stands for Northern Rail - we wouldn't want any Network Rail staff implicated.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Just as an aside you should make it clear it your post tile that NR stands for Northern Rail - we wouldn't want any Network Rail staff implicated.

Done

 

[Merseysider]

Nothing new.

Allegedly, they've been "employed" on the cheap for years now, with many (agency) jobs subcontracted to the cheapest bidder.

Before Carillion, we had G4S.

 

[AY1975]

If you are overcharged, and you write to the train operator concerned and they don't reply or refuse to accept that they are in the wrong, it's worth raising the matter with Transport Focus. See www.transportfocus.org.uk

 

[island]

Transport Focus will do nothing other than write a polite letter to the TOC asking them to look at the case again, and one back to you saying that it has declined to do so.

 

[Moonshot]

Again I've been asked to buy an Anytime ticket on arrival at Manchester because it's "Peak Time". (Arriving 1745 last night from Goostrey).

Discussion ensues and the fare is checked by a colleague, before I'm sold an Off-Peak ticket. (Goostrey is outwith the NR Peak Time boundary).

As I was (initially) denied a Duo ticket by a guard a couple of weeks ago, I'm wondering how many people are getting overcharged by undertrained staff?

There's no real incentive for NR to improve the training, as they would need to pay for the training and cut their revenue.

Why not just buy an M ticket.....save the hassle

 

[pemma]

That train goes in to platform 5. Doesn't that mean the ticket will have been sold by a Virgin RPI, rather than a contracted one on behalf of Northern?

Before the barriers were installed one of the Virgin RPIs tried to stop me boarding a Virgin service on a Manchester to Knutsford Route: Stockport ticket until I explained I needed to catch a train to Stockport as the next Chester train started there.

 

[Puffing Devil]

That train goes in to platform 5. Doesn't that mean the ticket will have been sold by a Virgin RPI, rather than a contracted one on behalf of Northern?

It would have been sold by the Virign RPI, however, he was working at a pace best described as glacial with a large queue and we wanted to get to the cricket. I could see there was no queue for the Northern RPIs over by P10/11, so we legged it up the bridge at the back and presented ourselves at the NR podium.

Incompetence or a long wait. That's the choice.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Why not just buy an M ticket.....save the hassle

I wanted a paper ticket as I didn't know if my phone was going to last the course of the day. I would have been fine if the guard's machine was working and could sell tickets.

 

[pemma]

It would have been sold by the Virign RPI, however, he was working at a pace best described as glacial with a large queue and we wanted to get to the cricket. I could see there was no queue for the Northern RPIs over by P10/11, so we legged it up the bridge at the back and presented ourselves at the NR podium.

Incompetence or a long wait. That's the choice.

If you were going to Old Trafford via Metrolink you can buy a through ticket if you aren't already aware.

 

[Moonshot]

Again I've been asked to buy an Anytime ticket on arrival at Manchester because it's "Peak Time". (Arriving 1745 last night from Goostrey).

Discussion ensues and the fare is checked by a colleague, before I'm sold an Off-Peak ticket. (Goostrey is outwith the NR Peak Time boundary).

As I was (initially) denied a Duo ticket by a guard a couple of weeks ago, I'm wondering how many people are getting overcharged by undertrained staff?

There's no real incentive for NR to improve the training, as they would need to pay for the training and cut their revenue.

How do you know staff are undertrained ? I myself am a guard, and I have on occasions made an error in selling a ticket. It happens.....staff are not robots.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do you know staff are undertrained ? I myself am a guard, and I have on occasions made an error in selling a ticket. It happens.....staff are not robots.

They aren't, but they do need to be willing to get the book out and check if a doubt is raised.

 

[Puffing Devil]

If you were going to Old Trafford via Metrolink you can buy a through ticket if you aren't already aware.

I am - though not with a Family and Friends railcard discount and I was with my son. Cheaper to buy separate tickets.

How do you know staff are undertrained ? I myself am a guard, and I have on occasions made an error in selling a ticket. It happens.....staff are not robots.

They aren't, but they do need to be willing to get the book out and check if a doubt is raised.

Some of the Northern Staff I have encountered are very robotic: Peak Time = Peak Tickets and they are not all aware of where the boundary is.

On a Crewe-Manchester service recently I was denied a Duo ticket as it was Peak Time. The Guard had no idea where the peak fare boundary was and how that worked. I had to show him the NRE fares screen on my phone before he would sell me the ticket, albeit begrudgingly and "on my head be it"

Though I agree, not all staff are like this. I get some great guards on the same service who are very knowledgeable and helpful.

 

[thejuggler]

I've just had something similar today, however it demonstrated gaps in knowledge of some staff.

Ticket bought from on service guard on an off peak service to Gargrave via Leeds. He sold me an off peak ticket, I queried this as my return was to be about 5pm. He advised Gargrave is outside the Northen Peak area so off peak ticket was fine. Happy days.

On return I was catching a service from Skipton and of course the off peak ticket wouldn't let me through the barrier as it was in peak hours. First gate staff member told me as it was peak there was extra to pay. Queried this due to conversation I had had with guard and another member of staff knew the rules and let us through.

However speaking to other members of our group who bought at unstaffed stations in off peak hours they still had to choose off peak or peak tickets for a day return. How can this be right, surely the ticket machine should only offer the off peak ticket as customers can't be expected to know the nuances of the off peak boundary.

 

[gray1404]

I've just had something similar today, however it demonstrated gaps in knowledge of some staff.

Ticket bought from on service guard on an off peak service to Gargrave via Leeds. He sold me an off peak ticket, I queried this as my return was to be about 5pm. He advised Gargrave is outside the Northen Peak area so off peak ticket was fine. Happy days.

On return I was catching a service from Skipton and of course the off peak ticket wouldn't let me through the barrier as it was in peak hours. First gate staff member told me as it was peak there was extra to pay. Queried this due to conversation I had had with guard and another member of staff knew the rules and let us through.

However speaking to other members of our group who bought at unstaffed stations in off peak hours they still had to choose off peak or peak tickets for a day return. How can this be right, surely the ticket machine should only offer the off peak ticket as customers can't be expected to know the nuances of the off peak boundary.

You do understand that what determines peak and off peak is based on the specific ticket held and the restriction code attached to that ticket. There is no such thing as peak or off peak train.

What station where you travelling from? Once we know this we can look up the restrictions.

 

[iknowyeah]

I am - though not with a Family and Friends railcard discount and I was with my son. Cheaper to buy separate tickets.





Some of the Northern Staff I have encountered are very robotic: Peak Time = Peak Tickets and they are not all aware of where the boundary is.

On a Crewe-Manchester service recently I was denied a Duo ticket as it was Peak Time. The Guard had no idea where the peak fare boundary was and how that worked. I had to show him the NRE fares screen on my phone before he would sell me the ticket, albeit begrudgingly and "on my head be it"

Though I agree, not all staff are like this. I get some great guards on the same service who are very knowledgeable and helpful.

Duos aren't valid in the evening peak

 

[thejuggler]

You do understand that what determines peak and off peak is based on the specific ticket held and the restriction code attached to that ticket. There is no such thing as peak or off peak train.

What station where you travelling from? Once we know this we can look up the restrictions.

My ticket had a B1 restriction, no travel before 9.30am. No evening restriction. Friends caught services at various West Yorkshire stations on Airedale line. Apperley Bridge, Bradford FS, Steeton and Silsden.

 

[yorkie]

Duos aren't valid in the evening peak

They are two separate incidents.

In the most recent incident, he was refused the sale of a CDR, which was valid.

I do not know the detail of the Duo case.

 

[gnolife]

Duos aren't valid in the evening peak

The morning restriction applies to the outbound only. The evening one to the return only. So if someone wanted to buy a duo at Crewe at 1700, it would be fine

(The restriction code is NX, I can't link to it at the moment)

 

[Puffing Devil]

Duos aren't valid in the evening peak

The morning restriction applies to the outbound only. The evening one to the return only. So if someone wanted to buy a duo at Crewe at 1700, it would be fine

(The restriction code is NX, I can't link to it at the moment)

gnolife is correct. The outbound of the Duo is restricted in the morning only, the return is restricted in the evening peak. Which is as intended - couples going into the city for an evening out or a full day out at the weekend (apart from December!)

Link to NX Restriction

 

[pemma]

Which is as intended - couples going into the city for an evening out or a full day out at the weekend (apart from December!)

I thought Duos originally started with the same restrictions as Cheap Day Returns but then extra restrictions started getting added depending on the route. Also no reason why they had to be for a trip to the city, they could be used for a day trip to the Peak District or Delamere Forest even if you weren't starting at a city station.

Evening Returns were intended to get people in the city for the evening and pre-dated Duos. (First introduced to try and get people to go for evenings out in Manchester after the IRA bombing in 1994, while Duos were a First North Western idea.) No point in purchasing a Duo to save 25% when you could purchase an Evening Return and save 50%!

 

[Puffing Devil]

I thought Duos originally started with the same restrictions as Cheap Day Returns but then extra restrictions started getting added depending on the route. Also no reason why they had to be for a trip to the city, they could be used for a day trip to the Peak District or Delamere Forest even if you weren't starting at a city station.

Evening Returns were intended to get people in the city for the evening and pre-dated Duos. (First introduced to try and get people to go for evenings out in Manchester after the IRA bombing in 1994, while Duos were a First North Western idea.) No point in purchasing a Duo to save 25% when you could purchase an Evening Return and save 50%!

There's no reason why they shouldn't be used for other trips.... I think the intention was for couples leisure use, and that's generally into the City.

They are also available where the Evening Return wasn't - outside the TfGM area.

 

[Gareth Marston]

utter confusion all round amongst passengers and staff on ticket validity. The one I come across most is hearing about Virgin Train Managers announcing that Off Peak tickets aren't valid or other operators tickets aren't valid. Where does the average passenger stand who have bought an Off Peak ticket to Euston from the Cambrian off ATW? I've never heard of the Train Manager following up saying except restriction code VJ.......

I've also seen passengers with luggage sat on the seats on the platform after the 0839 train has gone to Birmingham having turned up 20 odd minutes before. "I'm waiting on the off peak" even though they could have gone on any of the 3 eastward departures pre 0900.

 

[Llanigraham]

I was told by a Virgin Train Manager recently, that since I had started my journey west of Shrewsbury (and in Wales) that Off Peak did not apply, and I regularly catch trains back from Euston in "peak time" and have never been stopped or my ticket queried.

And they are always ATW tickets! (often issued by you!!)

 

[roversfan2001]

The whole peak/off-peak situation is a complete mess, but there's no real way to fix it without imposing a blanket 'peak time' (which, as we see time and time again on XC, can be easily circumvented through split-ticketing).

 

[gray1404]

Sadly having a blanket ban on times will discriminate passengers making longer journeys or though with less frequent services and will lead to another complete mess. The current system of looking up restrictions should work. Passengers and staff should and need to look up the codes.

 

[pemma]

Sadly having a blanket ban on times will discriminate passengers making longer journeys or though with less frequent services and will lead to another complete mess. The current system of looking up restrictions should work. Passengers and staff should and need to look up the codes.

It's the long distance fares with connections which cause the issues e.g. TPE putting an after 07:45 restriction on tickets from Cheshire to Yorkshire. That keeps the off-peak passengers off the busier TPE trains but a connecting Northern service calling at station x at 07:43 and station y at 07:46 is unlikely to be quieter departing station y, it's more likely to be busier!

While with shorter journeys a blanket restriction without exceptions annoys passengers when services are re-timed. It's not uncommon for a 09:31 departure to become a 09:28 departure during the leaf fall period. No-one wants to pay extra for a service departing 3 minutes earlier and arriving at the destination station at the same time!