Incomplete Journey Refund Cannot Be Issued To Oyster Card

[simple simon]

Because none of the Oyster card readers were working at London City Airport on Monday morning 15th October 2018, it proved impossible to 'touch-out' at the end of a journey to the airport on the DLR. This caused travel costs which had been expected to be £1.50 (or possibly a peak fare of £2.40) to become an incomplete journey fee of £8.

Today (the next day) I contacted TfL to seek a refund and was told that it cannot be issued to the Oyster card that was used when travelling.

Note, the helpdesk person agreed that a refund is due, but because a visitor oyster card was being used they either do not or can not refund it directly. Maybe its also because the card is older type (first generation) without the white D in a blue box on its back.

Instead the refund needs to be made directly to a bank account, or some other way. At the time of my phone call I was so shocked with what I was being told that I did not think to ask if they will allow the refund to be made to another (ordinary) Oyster card.

This is a big surprise to me, as last week I faced a refund scenario with a credit card and for that the company was insistent that the refund goes back to the card that made the purchase. I was told that this was to prevent fraud.

 

[MikeWh]

There are some cases where a refund does need to be made direct to the bank. They certainly won't refund to a different Oyster card. I'm slightly surprised that this issue hasn't been handled by auto-completing journeys when they next touched in, or perhaps that can't work if it's the next day.

 

[sprunt]

I'm slightly surprised that this issue hasn't been handled by auto-completing journeys when they next touched in, or perhaps that can't work if it's the next day.

Given that the end point of the journey was City Airport on Monday, I think there's every chance they haven't touched in since.

 

[Haywain]

They certainly won't refund to a different Oyster card.

That isn't what I was told on the helpline last week. It turns out I have been using a Visitor Oystercard since earlier this year, after I had to stop using contactless due to getting a railcard. I have no idea where the Oyster card came from - it's been lying around at home for years. Anyway, I managed to get myself an incomplete journey and on querying it found out that I can't register the card. I was told to get a new card and register it, and then phone back and they would sort out the error and refund the whole balance of the Visitor card to my new Oyster card. I've got a new card but haven't phoned back yet for the refund. Maybe I'll give it a try tomorrow.

 

[MikeWh]

That isn't what I was told on the helpline last week. It turns out I have been using a Visitor Oystercard since earlier this year, after I had to stop using contactless due to getting a railcard. I have no idea where the Oyster card came from - it's been lying around at home for years. Anyway, I managed to get myself an incomplete journey and on querying it found out that I can't register the card. I was told to get a new card and register it, and then phone back and they would sort out the error and refund the whole balance of the Visitor card to my new Oyster card. I've got a new card but haven't phoned back yet for the refund. Maybe I'll give it a try tomorrow.

That's a slightly different thing. A refund of an overcharge has to be made to the card which incurred the charge. You can, however, transfer the whole balance from one card to another, cancelling the first one in the process.

 

[simple simon]

Just to say... I've been so busy the past few days that I have not yet got around to sorting out the refund.

re: the concept of a refund to a different Oyster card or a bank account, surely by saying that it must go 'somewhere else' other than the original card there is a risk of people purposely creating a scenario where a refund is needed so as to to reduce the value of someone else's PAYG e-purse?

Visitor cards offer discounts, admittedly mostly aimed at tourists, but for someone who wanted another Oyster card and has no need to add any sort of prepaid season ticket Travelcard to it so they are functionally the same as all other cards. Oh and the distinctive image on the cards' front might yet have a nostalgia value.

As someone who knows how the system normally works and how and why to avoid incomplete journeys it is now a very long time since I needed a refund on an Oyster card, but of one thing I am certain... when I wanted the refund the card was anonymous / not registered! It might be however that this was in the days before online accounts existed and the system has changed since then. This is the first time I have ever encountered a scenario where it was impossible to touch-out (barring a few occasions where auto-complete had been enabled).

I do not know if some sort of auto-complete had been enabled last Monday for people whose next journeys began at the airport station (once the card readers were working again) but even if this was the case since my return flight was diverted to Southend airport I did not travel again though this station. I have considered going back to the airport just to see if this is the situation, although it will cost me at least £1.50 extra just for trying (£2.40 if the touch-in is at a time when peak hour fares are charged).

As an aside, I never expected to still be able to use this visitor card as its a first generation card (without the white D in a blue box on its back) and I had been under the impression that since these use an older / less secure encryption system TfL were going to phase out all the first gen cards several years ago.

Simon

 

[Mojo]

re: the concept of a refund to a different Oyster card or a bank account, surely by saying that it must go 'somewhere else' other than the original card there is a risk of people purposely creating a scenario where a refund is needed so as to to reduce the value of someone else's PAYG e-purse?

What would someone gain by doing that? A customer can obtain a full refund, no questions asked, by contacting TfL.

 

[simple simon]

It was agreed that I can have the refund made to another Oyster card, this time one that is registered in my name. Note however that the remaining balance on the Visitor card is not being transferred anywhere else.

To my surprise I was told that if I waited 30 minutes I could collect the refund almost anywhere, even on a bus. I say this because the last time I needed a refund I had to do this at a nominated station anytime between 'tomorrow' and 'a week from now'. Admittedly this was so many years ago that I no longer remember when - it could easily be a decade, or more!

So far I have tried a DLR and a LU ticket machine, without success, but only by touching the card reader and reviewing recent journeys. The card is still 10p in deficit. I am planning to try it at a ticket gate tomorrow... but it might be that I need to clear the negative value first.

We shall see... and I will be travelling with more than one Oyster card and the means to top-up this card at a ticket machine 'just in case'.

btw, it was explained that when making refunds they have to create an account on the system, but this is not possible with a Visitor card. It is OK however with an unregistered anonymous card - I have these too, as they can be shared with other people (although only one passenger can use them at a time) whereas registered personalised cards are strictly restricted to the named person.

It seems to be pretty poor planning to offer a product to the public which if there is a problem cannot be resolved through the system. Its absolutely diabolical that refunds have to be made to bank accounts, especially as most Visitor card holders are tourists and the financial transaction will see them incur financial losses (bank charges, etc). The more I contemplate this situation the more I feel that its an injustice. Maybe the best outcome would be to stop selling the present type of Visitor card and instead offer fully functioning ordinary cards with a special tourist pictorial image. I accept that these would not then be ready to use immediately (ie: need a monetary value adding to the electronic purse). But it would prevent heartache and financial loss if something went wrong and through no fault of their own the card holder(s) incurred one (or several) maximum fare charges.

 

[simple simon]

Given that the end point of the journey was City Airport on Monday, I think there's every chance they haven't touched in since.

I was unable to try and see if auto-complete had been invoked because my return flight was a catalogue of nuisances* and I ended up at a different airport.

The information system at my departure airport malfunctioned and as a result passengers were not called to the departure gate until it was so close to the correct departure time that it was no longer possible to get us all onboard in time.

Because of this we missed out slot in the airline system for flights arriving in London, and as a result departure was even later.

During the flight the weather in London closed in (too much low cloud) and City Airport declared that it was no longer safe for aircraft to land. Aircraft on the ground were allowed to depart, however.

So... I ended up at Southend Airport, from where I caught a train straight home (which means that I did not return to city airport).

As an aside, Southend Airport's station ticketing system is woefully incapable of handling diverted passengers. There were two queues... one each for the staffed ticket sales window (one person) and the two ticket machines. I was in the latter queue and it took over 20 minutes for me to reach the front of this queue. Flybe said to pay travel costs oneself (over £11 for me!) and then claim a refund and as I type this message I realise that although I did do this I have not heard back from them.

*) I used the word 'nuisances' and not 'horrors' because at no time did I actually feel unsafe... only inconvenienced

 

[Haywain]

So far I have tried a DLR and a LU ticket machine, without success, but only by touching the card reader and reviewing recent journeys. The card is still 10p in deficit. I am planning to try it at a ticket gate tomorrow... but it might be that I need to clear the negative value first.

You cannot collect a refund at a ticket machine, it has to be at a barrier or on a bus. Effectively somewhere you would touch in for a journey.

I have to say that I regard it as ridiculous that you have to spend money to collect money you are owed.

 

[MikeWh]

It was agreed that I can have the refund made to another Oyster card, this time one that is registered in my name. Note however that the remaining balance on the Visitor card is not being transferred anywhere else.

To my surprise I was told that if I waited 30 minutes I could collect the refund almost anywhere, even on a bus. I say this because the last time I needed a refund I had to do this at a nominated station anytime between 'tomorrow' and 'a week from now'. Admittedly this was so many years ago that I no longer remember when - it could easily be a decade, or more!

I have to say I'm slightly surprised, but pleased that it worked out. Faster upload has been around for a year or more now. It applies to top ups as well as refunds. They say 30 minutes but it's often available in less (I think 5 is my best experience).

So far I have tried a DLR and a LU ticket machine, without success, but only by touching the card reader and reviewing recent journeys. The card is still 10p in deficit. I am planning to try it at a ticket gate tomorrow... but it might be that I need to clear the negative value first.

We shall see... and I will be travelling with more than one Oyster card and the means to top-up this card at a ticket machine 'just in case'.

They should have explained that the refund is picked up as part of a journey. It won't work at ticket machines. There's no need to clear a negative balance first, the refund will do that.

btw, it was explained that when making refunds they have to create an account on the system, but this is not possible with a Visitor card. It is OK however with an unregistered anonymous card - I have these too, as they can be shared with other people (although only one passenger can use them at a time) whereas registered personalised cards are strictly restricted to the named person.

This is not quite right. Sharing a card has nothing to do with it being registered or not. If the card is solely being used with PAYG credit then it can be shared. If it has a travelcard or a discount entitlement of any kind then it can only be used by the one person.

It seems to be pretty poor planning to offer a product to the public which if there is a problem cannot be resolved through the system. Its absolutely diabolical that refunds have to be made to bank accounts, especially as most Visitor card holders are tourists and the financial transaction will see them incur financial losses (bank charges, etc). The more I contemplate this situation the more I feel that its an injustice. Maybe the best outcome would be to stop selling the present type of Visitor card and instead offer fully functioning ordinary cards with a special tourist pictorial image. I accept that these would not then be ready to use immediately (ie: need a monetary value adding to the electronic purse). But it would prevent heartache and financial loss if something went wrong and through no fault of their own the card holder(s) incurred one (or several) maximum fare charges.

Visitor cards are supplied with a balance (which is included in the cost). The same is true when you order a normal card online.

I have to say that I regard it as ridiculous that you have to spend money to collect money you are owed.

The vast majority of users will regularly use their cards and thus make the journey anyway. If you are an occasional user then TfL will offer to refund to your bank. Obviously refunding back to an Oyster card costs TfL less than refunding to a bank.

 

[simple simon]

It might have been interesting to experiment and see what happens when an Oyster card with a negative balance is presented at a ticket gate that will, during the touch-in process, process a refund and increase the value stored in the e-purse back to positive territory.

But in the event as no-one was using one of the ticket machines which accept coins I seized the opportunity to add a little monetary value before passing through the ticket gate.

I then went and spent much of the refund chasing a train that does not stop at stations... (the new Class 717).

 

[MikeWh]

It might have been interesting to experiment and see what happens when an Oyster card with a negative balance is presented at a ticket gate that will, during the touch-in process, process a refund and increase the value stored in the e-purse back to positive territory.

I can confirm from personal experience that topups and refunds are processed first before deciding whether there is enough balance to allow entry.