Incongrous road sign at Penryn

[Mojo]

Only on a rail forum could there be so much debate about a standard road sign.

I’m not quite sure that’s correct. There was a fair bit of interest and discussion a few years ago about the “impossible” football on the brown signs.

Football ground street signs are wrong, says fan

The symbol is not realistic but tourist road signs for other attractions are, critics say.

www.bbc.co.uk

Currently, the image on the sign is made entirely of hexagons but a ball like that would be geometrically impossible to make.

Instead, a real football has a mixture of hexagons and pentagons - and maths crusader Matt Parker has started a petition to get that changed.

However, despite 20,000 people signing up to support him, the government has given them the red card.

 

[Dr_Paul]

I think the brown backed tourist signs were introduced in 1994 following a review of signage.

I'm colour-blind and can't tell between the green and brown signs; they both look the same to me (as in the picture in the original post).

 

[Re 4/4]

Germany has already modernised the level crossing sign:

 

[Starmill]

I would say that as the route is a national rail route and a tourist attraction, the signage is correct, or quite close to it, except for the fact that it's partly obscured by vegetation haha.

 

[vlad]

Germany has already modernised the level crossing sign:

If we used that then people would complain on this forum that the line through Penryn isn't electrified.

 

[si404]

The bigger question is: why does the sign say "Falmouth branch line" rather than use the "Maritime Line" name?

 

[willgreen]

The bigger question is: why does the sign say "Falmouth branch line" rather than use the "Maritime Line" name?

Possibly the branding of the line may change in the future, whilst physically it will always be the Falmouth branch? Best answer I can come up with off the top of my head.

 

[30907]

Possibly the branding of the line may change in the future, whilst physically it will always be the Falmouth branch? Best answer I can come up with off the top of my head.

Or maybe the sign is older than the Maritime Line brand?

 

[dosxuk]

No mention of the technically illegal blue bordered sign on that post?

Local signs for local people

Blue-bordered “local” direction signs are rapidly disappearing from our roads. They had their problems - but also an awful lot of fans.

www.roads.org.uk

 

[Lucan]

The steam engine icon is unfortunate, except for heritage railways. For one thing it cements in the minds of the majority of people, those who do not use them, that railways are slow, dirty, and old-fashioned. Hardly good publicity.

Secondly, for ungated level crossings it does not look threatening enough. Again it looks slow, and also cute, and that it could promptly stop with a cheery wave from the driver if you happen to be in its way. The German sign is much better - a looming image coming straight at you fast with a Darth Vader expression on the front. It might deter some idiots from taking a chance.

 

[6Gman]

Oh interesting, I didn't know that they were! They're interesting enough and perhaps Looe does warrant the moniker but I'm not sure I'd considering rattling up to Gunnislake in a 150 to be particularly "attractive" to anyone other than enthusiasts and the Falmouth branch even less so

The Gunnislake branch is a prime tourist route - views of the Tamar, Calstock Viaduct, the woods between there and Gunnislake and the moorland views at the top.

 

[py_megapixel]

I'll be corrected happily, this is cribbed from memory.

Any tourist attraction which earns a brown sign gets designated one based on what they are: a tree and picnic table for a public park, an elephant for zoo, and a steam train for heritage rail, that sort of thing.

I believe you are correct. For example, any aquarium will recieve a dolphin, even if that particular aquarium does not house dolphins.

 

[Lockwood]

I believe you are correct. For example, any aquarium will recieve a dolphin, even if that particular aquarium does not house dolphins.

(Edited on PC - initial post was on the phone)

I've recently had to go through my roadsigns again, so I had this to hand:


(Image of "Know Your Traffic Signs")

This is the list of tourist destinations (DfT, 2014, pp100-101), with further symbols for services that may be on a brown sign (ie camping, picnic sites, etc)

Spoiler: Transcript

Signs for tourist destinations

Inset: Stack-type sign with a brown background showing an elephant, the word "Zoo", a distance of 3 miles and an arrow pointing to the right
Inset: Flag-type sign pointing to the left with a brown destionation, the text "Model village" and a distance of 1 1/2 miles
Tourist destinations may be shown on separate signs with brown backgrounds, or on brown panels incorporated into other direction signs. See page 84 tor tourist signs on motorwars.

A map-type sign on a white background shows the route ahead for Lampton via the B1144 and a yellow on green panel showing (A 11), the route to the left is a major road to Dorfield and the B1321, and the minor road to the right points to a brown panel containing an elephant and the word Zoo.

A flag-type sign pointing to the left on a white background shows Linscombe Bay, 3 miles, and a brown panel with the text "Smugglers Caves" and 2 1/2.

Symbols are often used to indicate the type of destination. These may be shown on road maps. Once the full name of a tourist destination and its symbols have been shown on a sign, subsequent signs may show only the associated symbol. Examplaes of symbols are shown below. (Inset: A flag-type sign pointing left on a brown background containing a picture of a steam locomotive)

• An italic lower case i: Tourist information
• A castle: Castle
• A manor house: Historic house
• Some leaves on a stick: National Trust
• A white square with 3 blocks sticking out of each side: English Heritage
• A fir tree, a carousel with a single horse and a roush bushy tree: Theme park
• Three vertical lines, with some diagonal signs and three dots in the diagonal bit: Country park
• A parrot: Bird garden
• A duck: Nature reserve
• A sheep: Farm park
• A lion: Safari park
• A sand ccastle with a flag: Beach
• A building with a capital M in it: Museum (England)
• A Roman centurion's helmet: Roman remains
• An aeroplane's propeller: Aviation museum

There are also symbols for sports and leisure facilities.

• A football which is geometrically impossible: Football ground
• A cricket wicket with a ball knocking one stump over and dislodging a bail: Cricket ground
• A figure wearing a zip-down top: Sports sentre (England)
• A chequered flag: Motor sport
• A flag pointing to the left: Golf course
• A jockey riding a horse: Race course
• A fish with a line coming out of its mouth: Fishing
• A person riding a bicycle: Cycle hire
• Two skittles, one upright, one falling over: Ten-pin bowling
• A figure crouching on skis on a slope: Ski slope

See pages 103 and 104 for symbols and brown signs used for tourist facilities such as camp sites, restaurants and hotels. Some symbols are directional and face in the direction in which traffic turns at a junction. For ahead destinations, symbols generally face left. Some tourist attractions may use a general symbol, depending on whether they are in England, Scotland or Wales.

• A white and red rose: England
• A white thistle on a blue oval background: Scotland
• A red dragon on a white background: Wales

Examples are provided below this text:

• A brown rectangular sign with the text "For railway museum follow A121": This sign is used in advance of a junction, advising drivers of the route to be followed where it is not practicable to sign a tourist destination at the junction itself
• A flag-type sign pointing to the left with the text "Tourist route to Donford" and a white and red rose, also a stack-type sign with a brown background, an arrow pointing to the left, the text "Greenfield Country tour" and a white and red rose: Direction signs may indicate a route through and area of special interest
• A brown rectangular sign with a picture of a steam locomomtive and the text beneath "Steam railway 300 yards", also a rectangular sign with a picture of a castle and the text "Archer Castle 10 miles": Signs showing the distance ahead to a tourist attraction

The page has a header with "direction signs on all-purpose roads" and the footer contains page numbers

No, I don't usually have that sat on my kitchen table.

There are some others, like the aquarium mentioned above, that KYTS does not have in its list. Rather than having a custom image for each tourist destination, there are the generic ones. This makes the signage a lot more consistent (I think this is something that authorities can get DfT approval to deviate from though? One thing that springs to mind is Hampton Court Palace having an image of the palace and not the generic Historic house). I guess having each tourist destination having their logo instead of the generic ones would make a right mess of the signage layout, and be a huge pain when they rebrand/get taken over/etc. It's bad enough at the moment with out of date signage, without adding to the mix!


Department for Transport 2014. Know Your Traffic Signs. London: TSO

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

No, I don't usually have that sat on my kitchen table.

Now, now, we all have our own hobbies - it's nothing to be shamed of

 

[Ianno87]

Not really ... our current signage designs result from a comprehensive review done by the Warboys Committee in the early and mid 1960s, when steam, while still around, was very definitely on the way out.

Their remit was to improve the readability and recognition of signs, enabling drivers to read them better in fast moving traffic, and the outline of a steam loco is far more recognisable than a diesel or electric outline would be. Even now young drivers are likely to have encountered Thomas the Tank Engine during their early years!

The icons are familiar, much like the Monopoly icons. Look at the age of the car and boat. Who wears a top hat nowadays ordinarily and who uses a steam iron or thimble yet most of us recognize them.

A bit like how the speed camera sign depicts a 1920s-style camera! But it's definitely recognisable as 'camera'

 

[Ianno87]

The steam engine icon is unfortunate, except for heritage railways. For one thing it cements in the minds of the majority of people, those who do not use them, that railways are slow, dirty, and old-fashioned. Hardly good publicity.

But the BR Double Arrow suggests 'boring DMU to take you to work'. Steam engine suggests "pleasant country train ride'.

 

[Lucan]

A bit like how the speed camera sign depicts a 1920s-style camera! But it's definitely recognisable as 'camera'

I'll change into my photography anorak and say it is more like a Fuji GX680 medium format camera, made from 1987-2007

 

[pieguyrob]

The symbol for a car is an Austin A40, apart from Fawltey Towers, when was the last time you saw one of those?

Also the Worboys commission predicted the Blackpool OMO cars a decade before they were built, for the symbol for a tram. At the time Blackpool and in particular Fleetwood was the only place in the Uk you could see trams still running on public roads. Surely the symbol for a tram should have been a Blackpool tram?

 

[norbitonflyer]

The symbol for a car is an Austin A40, apart from Fawltey Towers, when was the last time you saw one of those?

The Austin that got "a jolly good thrashing" from Basil Fawlty was an Austin 1100, not an A40. I always thought the symbol resembled a Ford 100E Anglia (the kind favoured by Roland Rat, not the later 105E model used by Harry Potter, and by Vyvyan in "The Young Ones")

Austria goes for a more vintage look.

But we digress

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Only on a rail forum could there be so much debate about a standard road sign. I'm waiting for somebody to say that the colour is correct for a line on Cornwall, but the engine is totally the wrong class for a GWR branch line.

I can't remember the date, but at one time BR used a Deltic logo on publicity for inter-city services generally, even if it related to services out of Euston or Paddington.
There were complaints away from the ECML.
At some point the standard logo was changed to a Class 87 electric (maybe when the Electric Scots started in 1974).
The complaints moved to the other side of the country!

If a steam engine outline is an anachronism today, how about Swiss electric train sirens, which try to emulate the sound of a steam whistle?
I suspect that is regarded as a health and safety issue there, much like yellow front ends here.

 

[Gems]

I returned from Cornwall recently. Guess what, most of the branch line services were 90% tourist. I think a tourist sign is pretty apt to be fair.

 

[Meerkat]

That German sign is a decent effort. The front on symbols on google maps are a nightmare for deciding if they are trains, buses or trams.

 

[GoneSouth]

Well I like consistency and I think this is all a bit odd. Neither the train nor the stations in Falmouth are tourist attractions in their own right, however the line does lead to many tourist attractions. Castles, beaches, restaurants. Museums by the score in Falmouth but I’ve never seen a steam train or a preserved railway. Double arrow BR red and white sign should suffice.

Falmouth is a fine place to visit BTW, if you’ve never been down that way before, add it to your list now (but don’t expect any steam trains)

If we were to adopt this policy further afield, we would have to paint the blue/white motorway signs brown on the M55 because it’s a tourist motorway into Blackpool. And then there would be arguments about what logo to use on such a sign

 

[Deepgreen]

The other point here is that, along with countless other road signs, this one is being obscured by vegetation. This may seem inoccuous, but drivers struggling to read signs are not concentrating on driving properly.

 

[pieguyrob]

If we were to adopt this policy further afield, we would have to paint the blue/white motorway signs brown on the M55 because it’s a tourist motorway into Blackpool. And then there would be arguments about what logo to use on such a sign

Blackpool does have its own brown sign symbol. It's the Blackpool Tower. Pretty certain it's the only place in the UK that uses it. Though, Paris might have copied it!

 

[Flange Squeal]

If it's bad/questionable signs you're looking for, the pedestrian direction signs in Staines for the station are very unique.

 

[al78]

If it's bad/questionable signs you're looking for, the pedestrian direction signs in Staines for the station are very unique.

View attachment 83867

What is the problem? Looks very clear to me.

That's a matter of opinion. Yes of course it's expensive compared with a service train, but you are not comparing like for like. It's reasonably priced compared with shorter preserved railways, or a full length tour, offers an all summer round service, and as you say offers stunning scenery. It brings in a lot of tourist revenue to the Fort William area, and I suspect Mallaig retailers enjoy the benefit it brings too. No doubt without it there would be a small employment hit too, both directly and indirectly.

So sure, if you want to take the cheap option, that's fine, but don't knock a service that brings great enjoyment for many, boosts the local economy, and whose success suggests that it's priced at a sensible point for what it offers.

What does it offer over the same journey on a modern train other than some fluffy feeling of using a mode of transport that ceased half a century ago?

 

[Flange Squeal]

What is the problem? Looks very clear to me.

The symbol doesn't look quite right to me....?

 

[Brissle Girl]

What is the problem? Looks very clear to me.



What does it offer over the same journey on a modern train other than some fluffy feeling of using a mode of transport that ceased half a century ago?

Steam haulage on a main line (ie over 25mph), seats that aren't crammed in and line up with the windows, a stop at Glenfinnan (normally) to see the viaduct that everyone wants to see....
It's successful, it has brought lots of tourists, and thus income to the region, and it brings joy to many people who travel on it. If you don't wish to travel on it that's perfectly fine. But enough people do and think the price is worth paying. That's all that matters really.

 

[urbophile]

Who wears a top hat nowadays ordinarily

Jacob Rees-Mogg?