Inconsistent behaviour by FGW

[sheff1]

Well, as we are still waiting to be told under what legislation non-residents can be prevented from travelling from, or purchasing tickets from, an unstaffed station ....

how about another legislation query ...

where is it lain down that a Penalty Fare or a prosecution are the only options for someone who travels from an unstaffed PF zone station where the TVM doesn't accept cash ?

 

[island]

The penalty fares rules only state that the authorised collector may (not must) show discretion when dealing with a passenger travelling from a TVM-only station with a payment method not accepted by the TVM.

 

[cuccir]

I really don't understand why FGW are allowed to run a penalty fare scheme from unmanned stations that have TVMs which don't accept cash.

This, I think, in the most pertinent comment on the thread. Oop 'ere in Northern Rail and Trans-Pennine land, the penalty fare is largely an unknown beast, which makes having no or limited purchasing facilities much more acceptable.

Are there no minimum conditions required for operating a penalty fares scheme from a station? If there are some, then perhaps they should be more stringent.

 

[telstarbox]

If FGW want to be consistently ruthless in their use of Penalty Fares (which they are entitled to do) they should be as consistent in ensuring that passengers can pay at stations using the method of their choice without unreasonable queueing. The approach in the OP is not equitable.

 

[FenMan]

This, I think, in the most pertinent comment on the thread. Oop 'ere in Northern Rail and Trans-Pennine land, the penalty fare is largely an unknown beast, which makes having no or limited purchasing facilities much more acceptable.

Are there no minimum conditions required for operating a penalty fares scheme from a station? If there are some, then perhaps they should be more stringent.

From memory, didn't DaFT compel FGW to introduce the Penalty Fare scheme on this line as a condition of renewing the franchise last time around?

 

[WelshBluebird]

One even worse than having a penalty fare station with a cash only TVM is a penalty is a station with no method of buying tickets 90% of the day and no permit to travel machine (specifically Oldfield Park, which according to signs on the station and FGW's website is still part of the penalty fare scheme despite the ticket machine being removed over 3 years ago).

 

[QJ]

I have had occasion to commence my journey from Reading West before now. It seems that I made a good choice in purchacing a ticket in advance.

Priv.from Reading West, please?

What is your address - Basingstoke!!!!

It would be nice to be able to use a TVM to purchase priv.tickets. I wouldn't then be trying to purchase a rail ticket for immediate travel and having to watch my intended train come and go. Not for the first time despite allowing myself up to twenty minutes before my train is due. It is so frustrating standing in the queue at Winchester station behind three people that took over 15 minutes to deal with. This being in the evening peak and the people in front were renewing season tickets to commence the following week, asking for refunds or buying advance tickets for weeks in advance.

As for free travel at Reading. This happens every time there are rail replacement buses operating and not just the people you would expect; Albert and Ada are at it too.

 

[Flamingo]

It would be nice to be able to use a TVM to purchase priv.tickets.

And how open to abuse would that be?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As a general point, threads of the "inconstancy" variety can usually be summarised as "I usually get away with it, this time I didn't".

Some you win, some you lose.

 

[Bill Badger]

It is so frustrating standing in the queue at Winchester station behind three people that took over 15 minutes to deal with. This being in the evening peak and the people in front were renewing season tickets to commence the following week, asking for refunds or buying advance tickets for weeks in advance.

The closure of the Travel Centre at Winchester so that it could be leased as a shop frequently causes such delays.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

This morning - 05.48 Reigate to Reading. No ticket checks at all. 'twould seem that the Conductor's machine wasn't working. Too simple to have a spare/emergency replacement machine at a big 24 hour manned station like Guildford. Anyone travelling from Dorking to Blackwater (for instance) had a free ride.

 

[FenMan]

All's well that ends well.

A shiney new ticket machine has appeared on the Reading-bound platform at Blackwater.

Perhaps this thread woke up someone at FGW HQ? :0)

All that needs to be done now is to build a shelter to protect it from the elements .... the touchscreen faces west so I doubt it will work too well if prevailing winds bring wet weather!

 

[stevetay3]

Is it not down to FGW to prove that you did not board at RDW or TWY,rather than the pas having to prove that they did.
What happened to innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Shona]

Yesterday I was travelling from Blackwater to Twyford via Reading and had an unpleasant experience at the Excess Fares window, platform side of the barriers, at Reading station.

Some background:-
- Blackwater is a Penalty Fares station with signs clearly stating this.
- There used to be a ticket machine on each platform, but the machine on the Reading platform was removed following persistent vandalism.
- The remaining TM, on the Guildford platform, does not take cash and is frequently out of order. For a long time this machine had a faulty card reader and also the touchscreen fails when it has been raining as it is not adequately shielded from the elements.
- AFAIK, all other Penalty Fares stations on this route have ticket buying opportunities on both platforms, apart from Farnborough North where, due to the layout, nearly all travellers have to go past the TM before accessing either platform.
- Those familiar with the layout at Blackwater will know that, for travellers approaching the station from the town side who want to go to Reading, it is not a trivial matter to go round to the Guildford platform on the off chance that the remaining TM is working.
- FGW guards know there are issues with purchasing tickets at Blackwater and all happily sell tickets on board. Some come through the train specifically asking "Any tickets required from Blackwater?". It has long been established practice for Reading-bound passengers joining at Blackwater to buy tickets on the train.

On to yesterday.

- Joined the 11:02 train at Blackwater with around 20 others. The service was full and standing as it originated at Gatwick.
- There was no sign of the guard during the journey to Reading, which is unusual.
- As I had plenty of time to make the connection to Twyford I went to buy a ticket at the excess fares window.
- During the purchase I was approached by a FGW employee who flashed his RPI badge and asked why I hadn't already purchased a ticket.
- I explained that, for the reasons stated above, this was my first reasonable opportunity to purchase a ticket.
- He disputed this, saying I should have purchased a ticket at Blackwater. When I pointed out this was unreasonable due to the lack of an accessible TM on the Reading platform, he changed tack and said I should have gone to the back of the train and knocked on the door to obtain a ticket from the guard. I asked him if he was sure about that. He said he was sure - this was stated in the NRCoC he said. I thought it pointless to argue with that assertion and pointed out that I wasn't trying to evade the fare, otherwise why had I gone to the Excess Fares window to buy a ticket?
- His attitude was aggressive and he was speaking loudly, seemingly to create a "scene".
- Meanwhile, a queue was building up behind me and he switched his attention to the next two people in line, asking where they had come from. When they both said "Blackwater" he muttered something under his breath, terminated the interview and wandered off.
- I then finished buying the ticket.

So, there is a disconnect between the behaviour of guards on this route and that of this particular RPI. Obviously the problem would be resolved if a new TM is installed on the Reading platform at Blackwater, however, assuming this isn't going to happen anytime soon, what is the best way to ensure that all FGW staff have a consistent and pragmatic approach to passengers travelling to Reading from Blackwater?

Am glad I saw your message. I travelled from Blackwater to Reading on the 13 June and although explained I could not buy a ticket as there was no machine they issued a penalty fare. Mr jobs worth. I was told I could appeal...! Find out I have to pay fine and then appeal.

Sent appeal after a lot of hasstle, as the appeals had, after a week no record of my ticket.

They sent me a link showing the ticket machine so decided to go down and take a photograph of where machine sould be and low and behold there is now a new ticket machine and they will not enter into any more correspondence with me.

Now have a letter saying I have to pay £40 or they will issure court preceedings.


Any suggestions on what I do now?

 

[RPI]

Am glad I saw your message. I travelled from Blackwater to Reading on the 13 June and although explained I could not buy a ticket as there was no machine they issued a penalty fare. Mr jobs worth. I was told I could appeal...! Find out I have to pay fine and then appeal.

Sent appeal after a lot of hasstle, as the appeals had, after a week no record of my ticket.

They sent me a link showing the ticket machine so decided to go down and take a photograph of where machine sould be and low and behold there is now a new ticket machine and they will not enter into any more correspondence with me.

Now have a letter saying I have to pay £40 or they will issure court preceedings.


Any suggestions on what I do now?

Unfortunately all you can really do is pay up, from what i can gather there was a ticket machine available but on the other platform? May be worth taking it up with passenger focus but still, pay the PF as it will only get worse.

 

[Shona]

Thanks for advice. Will pay the fine, but there are no signs to say there is a ticket machine on the other side and as it is a fair walk I would have missed my train. Also the link they sent me was of the ticket machine on the Reading side which was just not there.

Just seems so unfair and yes will take it further.

 

[jkdd77]

Unfortunately all you can really do is pay up, from what i can gather there was a ticket machine available but on the other platform? May be worth taking it up with passenger focus but still, pay the PF as it will only get worse.

In theory, if there was:
1) no TVM at all on the Reading side at the time;
2) no *working* TVM on the Guildford side (ref: previous posts by FenMan suggesting it often malfunctions);
3) no PERTIS machine;
4) no open ticket office at the time of travel;
5) no opportunity to buy a ticket on train;
6) and Shona then actively attempted to purchase a ticket at the first opportunity,
then no offence was committed and there is no liability to pay the PF, only the correct fare for the journey made.

However, in practice, there may be significant difficulty in proving (1) and (2), in front of a magistrate, particularly if no attempt was made at the time to ascertain the working status of the TVM on the Guildford platform.

 

[34D]

Thanks for advice. Will pay the fine, but there are no signs to say there is a ticket machine on the other side and as it is a fair walk I would have missed my train. Also the link they sent me was of the ticket machine on the Reading side which was just not there.

Just seems so unfair and yes will take it further.

Are there steps or ramps/lifts to cross the track?

 

[FenMan]

Are there steps or ramps/lifts to cross the track?

The A30 main road forms the bridge between the platforms. On each side you have to leave the station to access the steps. I estimate each staircase is approx. 25 steps. To walk to the other platform and back takes 3 to 4 minutes depending upon mobility and the slipperiness of the wooden steps.

The new ticket machine on the Reading platform certainly wasn't there on 13th June.

What the poster hasn't mentioned is whether they were PF'ed on the train, at the Excess Fares window at Reading or attempting to go through the barriers at Reading. This is key.

 

[andykn]

We asked if we could refuse to accept cards for small fares or put in place a lower limit to stop stupid timewasting card sales.

Well managed card sales can be as quick if not quicker than cash.

 

[Flamingo]

Unfortunately (as I frequently have to point out to passengers from Paddington who have joined from the H&C line ), "a fair walk" to where-ever a ticket can be purchased is not on the list of excuses that is accepted, unless evidence of infirmity or disability is forthcoming.

 

[34D]

Unfortunately (as I frequently have to point out to passengers from Paddington who have joined from the H&C line ), "a fair walk" to where-ever a ticket can be purchased is not on the list of excuses that is accepted, unless evidence of infirmity or disability is forthcoming.

Don't dispute what you're saying, however in the case of this station, to refuse to take into consideration the steps (and the leaving the station and walking along an A road - surely making it two separate stations!) would be a violation of the Equality Act (and before it, the disability discrimination act, specifically the sections around indirect discrimination, and remembering that there are many more people considered disabled under this act than are eligible for disabled railcard etc).

 

[Flamingo]

Well, the op has not given any indication of any disability or other inability to walk other than "it's a fair walk". Aldo, don't forget there are numerous disabled railcard holders who would have no excuse for not walking to the opposite platform, eg deaf cardholders

 

[Greenback]

Don't dispute what you're saying, however in the case of this station, to refuse to take into consideration the steps (and the leaving the station and walking along an A road - surely making it two separate stations!) would be a violation of the Equality Act (and before it, the disability discrimination act, specifically the sections around indirect discrimination, and remembering that there are many more people considered disabled under this act than are eligible for disabled railcard etc).

Please could you point me towards the relevant provisions of the Equality Act? I am not disputing anythign you have said, but I am intereste din learning more.

 

[FenMan]

Unfortunately (as I frequently have to point out to passengers from Paddington who have joined from the H&C line ), "a fair walk" to where-ever a ticket can be purchased is not on the list of excuses that is accepted, unless evidence of infirmity or disability is forthcoming.

It's not just a matter of being a fair walk. It's the question of entering station premises and not having an opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding the train. Yes, Reading-bound passengers could leave the station, go up and around via the A30 bridge and re-enter the station on the Guildford platform to buy a ticket and then come back to board the train, however I don't think that is "reasonable opportunity", particularly if there is already a queue of Guildford-bound passengers buying tickets. Also, local knowledge would be needed - why would someone unfamiliar with the layout even be aware that there was a TM on the other platform? (it's not visible).

To have a single TM only easily accessible on one side of a station with 450,000 recorded passengers p.a. (I suspect the actual number is considerably higher for the reasons stated earlier in this thread) was inadequate provision.

Any Reading-bound passenger PF'ed en route or at the excess fares window at Reading would have had the freedom to challenge FGW over what is and what is not a "reasonable opportunity". A successful challenge would have been problematic and may have influenced FGW's recent decision to install a second TM on the Reading platform. I'd also be interested to know if the North Downs Line User Group gave FGW a push to do the right thing.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Also, local knowledge would be needed - why would someone unfamiliar with the layout even be aware that there was a TM on the other platform? (it's not visible).

Very good point.
Are passengers expected to investigate every single inch of a station to ensure there are no TVM's?
If it is not obvious from the station entrance or the platform, then surely passengers shouldn't be expected to go to other platforms on the off chance there are TVM's there?
Yes you can have a look on the National Rail website, but that isn't always accurate (not long ago it was showing Oldfield Park station as having a TVM, when it has not had one for over 4 years).

 

[34D]

Please could you point me towards the relevant provisions of the Equality Act? I am not disputing anythign you have said, but I am intereste din learning more.

Seems a good guide http://www.rnib.org.uk/livingwithsightloss/Documents/equality_act_toolkit_service_providers_factsheet.doc

 

[Greenback]

That's interesting, thanks for the link.

 

[RPI]

Like i said, i think you should pay the remainder of the Pf to avoid getting any further charges added by RPSS then take this up with the Customer services of the TOC and if no joy then Passenger Focus where you probably stand a better chance of a satisfactory outcome.

 

[Shona]

Thanks for your comments but today have received an email from FGW letting me know there was a ticket machine on the Guildford side.....! Not actually saying I should have gone over there but just giving me another address to appeal....1

Have replied and used some of your comments but am not holding out much hope. Just seems so unfair but was not going to court over £40.


Just wanted to say my 14 year old and her friends travelled to Reading from Blackwater yesterday and they don't have cards luckily they just paid at Reading but we could have been in the same situation again as the TM does not accept cash.

 

[RPI]

If none of the TVM's take cash then your appeal should have been upheld, I'm led to believe that there have to be facilities that accept at least 2 payment methods but i cant remember where i read it, may be worth exploring this avenue. Thats assuming there is no ticket office etc.