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Incorrectly Translated Station Names

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thedbdiboy

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Not on the railway, but one of the most glorious mis-translations/pronunciation is a small hamlet near Truro, called Come to Good. We stayed there once and did a bit of digging about the name and found that in Cornish it was called (and I'm using the Welsh translation as I can't spell in Cornish) Cwm Ty Coed, the valley of the house in the wood.
And the hamlet has the most beautifully restored, thatched Friends Meeting House.
Very similar to how Flushing in New York gets its name - New York was at one time New Amsterdam, with a significant Dutch influence. Flushing is literally an anglicisation of Vlissingen.....
 
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urbophile

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I've never understood why some English people spell Lyon and Marseille with a final 's', despite pronouncing them in the French way. Did Lyons/Marseilles used to be the French spelling at one time?
 

PeterC

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I've never understood why some English people spell Lyon and Marseille with a final 's', despite pronouncing them in the French way. Did Lyons/Marseilles used to be the French spelling at one time?
The English used to pronounce the "s". The adoption of the French pronunciation is a post war change. In last 60 years we have seen a similar pronunciation change for Majorca / Mallorca. When I first went with my parents "Madj-orca" was universal but most people now say "Ma-yorka" with a drift towards using the Spanish / Catalan spelling when writing the name.
 

111-111-1

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It amuses me that there is a Welsh translation for Manchester but not for Piccadilly.
 

Dr_Paul

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Indeed (although, being pedantic, I think Litzmannstadt was a WW2-era innovation rather than a historic German name like the others).

That's right, it was. I used it as an example of a major city in a nation-state which goes out of existence, as Poland did in 1939 (in Molotov's cynical words, 'one swift blow to Poland, first by the German Army and then by the Red Army, and nothing was left of this ugly offspring of the Versailles Treaty'), and the new state power changed the city's name to reflect its own history, Litzmann being a German general from the First World War.
 

Vespa

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That's right, it was. I used it as an example of a major city in a nation-state which goes out of existence, as Poland did in 1939 (in Molotov's cynical words, 'one swift blow to Poland, first by the German Army and then by the Red Army, and nothing was left of this ugly offspring of the Versailles Treaty'), and the new state power changed the city's name to reflect its own history, Litzmann being a German general from the First World War.

As was Königsberg, birthplace of Emmanual Kant now renamed Kaliningrad after a Soviet leader Mikhail Kalinin.
There is some trace of German influence found in the building, most of it, is Soviet brutalist architecture.
 

vlad

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Anglo-Saxon may have, however English did not pre-date Gaelic.

But "Anglo-Saxon" is English. True, it's an early form that's not understandable by modern speakers but every language changes over time. If you don't acknowledge Old English to be English, then what do you acknowledge to be English? Generations of schoolchildren have found Shakespeare to be largely impenetrable....
 

37 418

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Does that mean that Gaelic was the language in the South East before Northumbria took it over?
Pat
The only parts of Scotland never to have spoken Gaelic are parts of the Borders, Orkney, Shetland and the eastern part of Caithness. Granted the South East would have seen very little Gaelic in it's history but it did crop up e.g Dunbar and Drem come from Gaelic.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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The only parts of Scotland never to have spoken Gaelic are parts of the Borders, Orkney, Shetland and the eastern part of Caithness. Granted the South East would have seen very little Gaelic in it's history but it did crop up e.g Dunbar and Drem come from Gaelic.

Scotland's linguistic history is fascinating, particularly looking at it from Wales. At my Welsh Medium primary school we were always taught that the really important battle in 1066 was not Hastings but the fall of the Brythonic / Welsh kingdom of Ystrad Clud / Strathclyde to the Scots who were in fact Gaelic-speaking Irish folk.

It sort of does your head in after a bit!
 

iainbhx

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In the case of Cologne/Köln I think maybe it's the very Romance-seeming "-gne" ending that rubs me up the wrong way.

The local dialect refers to it as Kölle rather than Köln, in the same way that many Bavarians refer to Minga rather than München. Then there's the likes of Meenz...
 

37 418

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Scotland's linguistic history is fascinating, particularly looking at it from Wales. At my Welsh Medium primary school we were always taught that the really important battle in 1066 was not Hastings but the fall of the Brythonic / Welsh kingdom of Ystrad Clud / Strathclyde to the Scots who were in fact Gaelic-speaking Irish folk.

It sort of does your head in after a bit!

I find the Welsh language fascinating as well, and it's amazing to see so many common roots e.g. monadh/mynydd, srath/ystrad, abhainn,/afon, dubh/du :)
 
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It amuses me that there is a Welsh translation for Manchester but not for Piccadilly.
For a while, ATW publicity used "Cryw" as a Welsh transliteration of Crewe. So I suppose, Manchester Piccadilly could be translated and transliterated to Manceinion Picadili.
 

Peter Kelford

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Perygl) is obviously similar to the English "peril"
The word 'peril' is French, so the word presumably Latin, the Latin word being 'periculum' according to Google.

But is not Cologne the French name for the city, rather than an Anglicisation? (My favourite Anglicisation is Leghorn for Livorno, something that baffles Italians I've spoken to about it.) Many places in Europe have had two or more names, in different languages, reflecting the various people who have lived there and the countries they variously have been in, as borders move and nation-states come into and sometimes go out of existence. Many western Polish cities have had German names, hence Wrocław -- Breslau, Poznań -- Posen, Gdańsk -- Danzig, Łódź -- Litzmannstadt. The city of Lviv in Ukraine has also been known as Lemburg (German), Lvov (Russian) and Lwów in Polish at various points in time.
There's an anglicisation for 'Antwerp', but it's neither the Flemish 'Antwerpen' nor the French 'Anvers'.

I've never understood why some English people spell Lyon and Marseille with a final 's', despite pronouncing them in the French way. Did Lyons/Marseilles used to be the French spelling at one time?
No. The only source I know of is a pre-dictionary (13th century) provençal non-standard use of it with an 'S'.

The local dialect refers to it as Kölle rather than Köln, in the same way that many Bavarians refer to Minga rather than München. Then there's the likes of Meenz...
Then there's Metz. The t is lightly pronounced.
 

Calthrop

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Very similar to how Flushing in New York gets its name - New York was at one time New Amsterdam, with a significant Dutch influence. Flushing is literally an anglicisation of Vlissingen.....

Another New York corruption-from-the-Dutch, which I like: the area of the city called "Gramercy Park". It's pronounced "GRAM-mer-see": and is not to do with the archaic English equivalent of "thank you", but a distortion of the Dutch Kromme Zee = crooked or twisted lake.

But is not Cologne the French name for the city, rather than an Anglicisation? (My favourite Anglicisation is Leghorn for Livorno, something that baffles Italians I've spoken to about it.)

Leghorn has long struck me, as pretty much the ultimate in English blithe mangling of the languages of lesser breeds. However, I've seen a representation by someone, to the effect that the city lies on the Ligurian Sea -- whereby our version of city's name, perhaps a little bit less mad than it would seem at first sight.

Many places in Europe have had two or more names, in different languages, reflecting the various people who have lived there and the countries they variously have been in, as borders move and nation-states come into and sometimes go out of existence. Many western Polish cities have had German names, hence Wrocław -- Breslau, Poznań -- Posen, Gdańsk -- Danzig, Łódź -- Litzmannstadt. The city of Lviv in Ukraine has also been known as Lemburg (German), Lvov (Russian) and Lwów in Polish at various points in time.

Such doings are prominent too, some way south and east of the regions mentioned above; with the addition that the different-language names are used today, concurrently with each other -- co-existence, even if not always very harmonious. Parts of Romania have a sizeable Hungarian minority population, and a smaller (nowadays, I gather, minuscule) German ditto. Hence cities thus sharing, respectively, three names [I can't do accents on letters -- sorry]: Cluj (nowadays called Cluj-Napoca) / Koloszvar / Klausenburg; and Oradea / Nagyvarad / Grosswardein. Timisoara, about as far west as you can get in Romania, has more or less the identical name in the three languages; just varying according to their spelling conventions. Being near the border of Serbia, the Timisoara region also has or had, a sizeable ethnically Serb community. A few decades ago anyway, the local newspaper was printed in four languages -- Romanian, Hungarian, German, and Serbian; which I felt to be marvellously weird.
 

30907

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Such doings are prominent too, some way south and east of the regions mentioned above; with the addition that the different-language names are used today, concurrently with each other -- co-existence, even if not always very harmonious. Parts of Romania have a sizeable Hungarian minority population, and a smaller (nowadays, I gather, minuscule) German ditto. Hence cities thus sharing, respectively, three names [I can't do accents on letters -- sorry]: Cluj (nowadays called Cluj-Napoca) / Koloszvar / Klausenburg; and Oradea / Nagyvarad / Grosswardein. Timisoara, about as far west as you can get in Romania, has more or less the identical name in the three languages; just varying according to their spelling conventions. Being near the border of Serbia, the Timisoara region also has or had, a sizeable ethnically Serb community. A few decades ago anyway, the local newspaper was printed in four languages -- Romanian, Hungarian, German, and Serbian; which I felt to be marvellously weird.
There's a difference between
1) towns in currently multilingual areas (including ones where political change has led to a change in what languages are recognised - Catalonia is a wellknown example, but there are political games over the status of Hungarian in Slovakia....)
2) towns in areas (such as Silesia) which have had an almost complete changeover of population, and whose post-1945 names are in some cases translations of the German (Jelenia Gora was Hirschberg, Stag Mountain in both cases...). Our German members will know better than I that using the historic name is often seen as making a political statement (cf Derry/Londonderry).
 

Bill EWS

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One example of how conversion from the Scottish Gaidhlig to English turns the Gaidhlig word(s) into gobble-de-gook. Vision wise, that is.

Tyndrum. Three words. Tigh an Drum. Tigh = a house, an = of/of the and Drum pronounced Droom = a ridge. i.e. The house of the ridge. The inclusion of a 'y' and making it a single word makes the Gaighlig meaning pointless.
 

norbitonflyer

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It's not only the English who transliterate other people's place names. In Italy signs proclaiming "Monaco" are likely to take you to Munich instead of Monte Carlo
 

Calthrop

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It's not only the English who transliterate other people's place names. In Italy signs proclaiming "Monaco" are likely to take you to Munich instead of Monte Carlo

A favourite instance of mine, of this thing: the two towns in France, some 60 km. apart in the Rhone valley -- named Vienne, and Valence; which are also, respectively, the French forms of Vienna; and Valencia in Spain.



Re the below-quoted: for sure -- I just find pleasing, the oddity of not merely two names for a town; but three or more, used "simultaneously" in common parlance, according to one's ethnicity.
There's a difference between
1) towns in currently multilingual areas (including ones where political change has led to a change in what languages are recognised - Catalonia is a wellknown example, but there are political games over the status of Hungarian in Slovakia....)
2) towns in areas (such as Silesia) which have had an almost complete changeover of population, and whose post-1945 names are in some cases translations of the German (Jelenia Gora was Hirschberg, Stag Mountain in both cases...).

Similarly, and not enormously far from there: Zielona Gora formerly Gruenberg, = Green Mountain.

Our German members will know better than I that using the historic name is often seen as making a political statement (cf Derry/Londonderry).

Hoping not to offend here; just, something that I've heard: am given to understand that people in N.I. who are on the "Orange" side of things there -- when just going about life's ordinary business, quite often refer to the city concerned, as "Derry"; because "Londonderry" can be a bit of an unwieldy mouthful.
 

paddington

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(on the other hand, isn't renaming English town names - such as London turning into Llundain - as bad as the days of Empire when the English referred to Peking because we couldn't be bothered to learn how to pronounce Beijing?)

Peking represented the way it was pronounced until around the late 1800s/early 1900s. Mandarin and other northern Chinese languages have since undergone palatisation. The languages of southern China are more conservative and the second syllable is still pronounced with a k or g initial.

Most English speakers still pronounce Beijing incorrectly: see https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=42652
 

Dunfanaghy Rd

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I was somewhat surprised in 2016 on a railtour out of Dresden to go through Kamenz / Kamjenc (the latter name being Sorbian).
Pat
 

johnnychips

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Peking represented the way it was pronounced until around the late 1800s/early 1900s. Mandarin and other northern Chinese languages have since undergone palatisation. The languages of southern China are more conservative and the second syllable is still pronounced with a k or g initial.

Most English speakers still pronounce Beijing incorrectly: see https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=42652
Fascinating point you made, and the link is intriguing. You may have had Tsingtao beer in the U.K. but the city name is Qingdao, and I think your post explains why.
 

THC

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Hoping not to offend here; just, something that I've heard: am given to understand that people in N.I. who are on the "Orange" side of things there -- when just going about life's ordinary business, quite often refer to the city concerned, as "Derry"; because "Londonderry" can be a bit of an unwieldy mouthful.

That's right, the vast majority of people living in the Maiden City will refer to it as Derry. Even one of the main cultural institutions on the Orange side of the fence is called the "Apprentice Boys of Derry". It tends to be only the BBC, Unionist publications like the Newsletter and the Belfast Telegraph and the staunchest of loyal types who use the 'London' variant at every turn.

THC
 

daodao

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I know what you mean: "Cologne" always grinds my gears... but for some reason "Munich" or "Vienna" don't. :s
Incidentally the etymology of Vienna (Wien) is thought to be Celtic, from the root Wen meaning white (gwyn yn Gymraeg). Its Latin name was Vindobona.
 

daodao

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It amuses me that there is a Welsh translation for Manchester but not for Piccadilly.
Manceinion is not a translation, it is the original name of the settlement.

Manchester originates from the Latin name Mamucium or its variant Mancunio and the citizens are still referred to as Mancunians. These names are generally thought to represent a Latinisation of an original Brittonic name. [Wikipedia]
 

daodao

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For a while, ATW publicity used "Cryw" as a Welsh transliteration of Crewe. So I suppose, Manchester Piccadilly could be translated and transliterated to Manceinion Picadili.
Again, it's not a transliteration, but the original name. The name Crewe (an anglicisation) derives from an Old Welsh word criu, meaning 'weir' or 'crossing'. Incidentally, there is another place called Crewe (-by-Farndon) in Cheshire, a hamlet close to the River Dee, which forms the English-Welsh border at this point.
 

30907

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I was somewhat surprised in 2016 on a railtour out of Dresden to go through Kamenz / Kamjenc (the latter name being Sorbian).
Pat
Sorbian was IIRC suppressed in DDR days (and doubtless before?) - another good, if niche, example, of politically-inspired change.
 

Calthrop

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That's right, the vast majority of people living in the Maiden City will refer to it as Derry. Even one of the main cultural institutions on the Orange side of the fence is called the "Apprentice Boys of Derry". It tends to be only the BBC, Unionist publications like the Newsletter and the Belfast Telegraph and the staunchest of loyal types who use the 'London' variant at every turn.

Thanks -- I was pretty sure that this was something that I'd heard; not my imagination. Although the city's full name did make an indispensible part of a splendidly orotund and sonorous title: that of the Londonderry & Lough Swilly Railway of blessed memory.

Sorbian was IIRC suppressed in DDR days (and doubtless before?) - another good, if niche, example, of politically-inspired change.

Though I recall that in the relevant area of the timetable map of Communist East Germany's DR, station names were shown in both standard German, and Sorbian; which would seem to suggest a certain degree of official DDR acceptance of the language. And I think I recall learning -- re something concerning the Sorbs, showing up up on another message board -- that the Nazis were essentially OK with this people (if maybe considering them not the very peak of pure and highly-excellent German-hood); not sure, though, how tolerant they were or weren't, of the language.
 

Peter Kelford

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Fascinating point you made, and the link is intriguing. You may have had Tsingtao beer in the U.K. but the city name is Qingdao, and I think your post explains why.
Or just simply Canton...If I'm not mistaken the modern meaning of the word has extended to the region across the border from Hong Kong rather than just the city.
 

Senex

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Sorbian was IIRC suppressed in DDR days (and doubtless before?) - another good, if niche, example, of politically-inspired change.
Really? I have DR timetables from DDR days that use Sorbian names alongside German ones, have a Sorbian "How to Use" page, and have the Sorbian names on their maps too.
 

paddington

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Fascinating point you made, and the link is intriguing. You may have had Tsingtao beer in the U.K. but the city name is Qingdao, and I think your post explains why.
Or just simply Canton...If I'm not mistaken the modern meaning of the word has extended to the region across the border from Hong Kong rather than just the city.

Sorry but you are completely mistaken. To explain how would take a very long and off-topic post.

To provide a European analogy, we were talking about how the famous beer brewed in Llandudno is sold as Flandidno Beer in the USA, and then you jumped in to say that Florence, the English translation of "Italia", is derived from a corruption of "Vatican".
 
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