Increasingly sad state of London Underground trains - graffiti and disrepair

[Vespa]

You can never get rid of people altogether though, so you just hand the blackmailing bargaining power over to the control room staff

That would only open the door to automatic operation of control room by AI, AI technology is improving in leaps and bounds.

I would not say it's a panacea for all underground issues, it would certainly remove most of the human elements of operation apart from maybe a supervisor and a technician, customer service staff on board trains.

 

[Harpo]

We can of course put the opposite view, that if it is suggested on-board operators are needed to overcome trap-and-drag incidents, why do they still happen?

Because there are humans in the process and they’re not close to 100% reliable. It’s recognised in manual back-up systems by calling them ‘degraded modes’.

 

[thomalex]

One thing that annoys me on the Bakerloo trains are the advert boards which usually have a load missing which then exposes some grotty mess behind, as you can see in one of your photos. Even if they've not sold the adverts I can't think it'd be much cost to just have some TfL placeholders that fit in the gaps. Would go a long way to show a modicum of pride in these trains.

 

[greyman42]

I was very recently talking to a couple from Boston (USA) who had just travelled into central London (Piccadilly line) from Heathrow. They commented on how clean the trains and stations were compared to the metro in Boston. They also added that the New York Metro was appalling and that it smelt like a toilet, as that is what some people use it as.

 

[43066]

Awarding large above inflation wage increase to drivers draws funding away from infrastructure,

There may come a point where investment in autonomous driverless trains is more cost effective in massive savings on the wage bill which will be diverted to rolling stock care.

I have travelled on Singapore driverless metro lines it seems to work quite well.

This has been discussed (and debunked) many times before. It isn’t going to be considered acceptable to have crew less trains on LU due to the lack of walkways in the tunnels, so by automating the driver you would end up with a DLR style train captain, who still gets paid a salary, can go on strike etc. They’re on less than train operators, but still earn north of £50k, so the savings aren’t that significant.

Comparisons with foreign systems that are either more modern and/or built to different standards don’t really help, as they aren’t comparing apples with apples.

There’s also ho guarantee that savings would be used to improve rolling stock - more likely they’d just result in lower subsidy.

 

[whoosh]

The irony that the state of lawlessness and vandalism will be somehow improved by doing away with staff and introducing more faceless automation....

 

[SynthD]

the advance of AI technology it's just a matter of time of reaching that tipping point where ATO becomes a more attractive proposition.

ATO would be more expensive than drivers earning a million each for several years. The only thing AI could helpfully do is prevent every passenger from accessing the platforms so that the trains could run automated with appropriate levels of avoiding danger.

The Bakerloo and Central are, as mentioned, suffering from fleet shortages. Is this problem happening in other lines?

 

[Thirteen]

I'm currently in Paris and it's similar to London in terms of stations and rolling stock cleanliness being hit and miss.

 

[Meerkat]

If it takes too long to clean off graffiti could it be temporarily sprayed over to ruin it for the culprits and their fans until it can be properly cleaned?

 

[Recessio]

One thing that annoys me on the Bakerloo trains are the advert boards which usually have a load missing which then exposes some grotty mess behind, as you can see in one of your photos. Even if they've not sold the adverts I can't think it'd be much cost to just have some TfL placeholders that fit in the gaps. Would go a long way to show a modicum of pride in these trains.

I agree with you here. Seems like wasted revenue (it doesn't cost them anything to have the advertising sheet, surely any price no matter how low is worth it and easy money?) and even if not, they could put Art On The Underground sheets up or something.

 

[mmh]

I do think if you compare it to other cities like New York or Paris, the graffiti on rolling stock is probably similar. Just the consequence of living in a busy city.

Hong Kong's trains and stations are pretty much immaculate, and it's far busier a city than London. I'm told the same is true of Singapore. In the UK there are cities with traditionally far worse reputations than London where you won't often see graffitied trains. Glasgow, Liverpool, Newcastle...

 

[Thirteen]

Hong Kong's trains and stations are pretty much immaculate, and it's far busier a city than London. I'm told the same is true of Singapore. In the UK there are cities with traditionally far worse reputations than London where you won't often see graffitied trains. Glasgow, Liverpool, Newcastle...

HK and Singapore are very different culturally to London, its not like for like.

I would say the S stock is due for a minor refurb, more changing the moquette which have become quite worn, the 2009 stock I don't use as much but it seems in pretty good nick but maybe a minor refurb wouldn't do it harm

 

[Silent]

Tech wise it's already theoretically possible. The main barriers are evacuation in tunnels and behaviour (in terms of that people would just hold the doors open without a person shouting at them not to).

Several lines already effectively run as per the DLR with someone who is basically acting as a guard, though they sit up front.

DLR isn’t the tube and the ato lines aren’t really fully autonomous but I hear the same thing for dlr. It has a train guard.

 

[kacper]

2009 stock I don't use as much but it seems in pretty good nick

2009 stock trains have gotten absolutely filthy over the last few years

 

[HSTBEN]

Was in london at the weekend, travelled on the Central, Northern, Piccadilly, and Jubilee lines and all external need a very good scrub, internally too not great, and generally filthy. Such a shame really but that's costs being cut. Surely a train wash can't be too expensive!!

 

[announcements]

They probably think to save costs they don't need to things to look as clean as they used to. It's just we have standards. NYC Subway has always set the bar low in terms of cleanliness/appearance, yet it does get people from A to B (on a budget!)

 

[Vespa]

This has been discussed (and debunked) many times before. It isn’t going to be considered acceptable to have crew less trains on LU due to the lack of walkways in the tunnels, so by automating the driver you would end up with a DLR style train captain, who still gets paid a salary, can go on strike etc. They’re on less than train operators, but still earn north of £50k, so the savings aren’t that significant.

Comparisons with foreign systems that are either more modern and/or built to different standards don’t really help, as they aren’t comparing apples with apples.

There’s also ho guarantee that savings would be used to improve rolling stock - more likely they’d just result in lower subsidy.

Problem is this awarding high wage increase after the city is being held to ransom by strikes, even after awarding the pay increase they want, they go on strike again for more like getting the bonus for simply doing your job during the Olympics is quite frankly just pure ridiculous greed.

As AI improves year on year and getting cheaper, eventually it may come to the point of convenience of being able to run a service without strikes and stroppy driver becoming more attractive in spite of the cost involved.

 

[Harpo]

Problem is this awarding high wage increase after the city is being held to ransom by strikes, even after awarding the pay increase they want, they go on strike again for more like getting the bonus for simply doing your job during the Olympics is quite frankly just pure ridiculous greed.

As AI improves year on year and getting cheaper, eventually it may come to the point of convenience of being able to run a service without strikes and stroppy driver becoming more attractive in spite of the cost involved.

Not sure how many more times you intend to repeat the same anti-driver rhetoric, but hopefully you’ll take on board the multiple well-reasoned explanations as to why zero traincrew on the tube is not realistic.

 

[stuu]

As AI improves year on year and getting cheaper, eventually it may come to the point of convenience of being able to run a service without strikes and stroppy driver becoming more attractive in spite of the cost involved.

How exactly is AI going to help in the event of an emergency? That's the biggest reason for keeping someone on board. There's plenty of driverless railways in the world so I don't understand what AI has to do with this

 

[43066]

Problem is this awarding high wage increase after the city is being held to ransom by strikes, even after awarding the pay increase they want, they go on strike again for more like getting the bonus for simply doing your job during the Olympics is quite frankly just pure ridiculous greed.

As AI improves year on year and getting cheaper, eventually it may come to the point of convenience of being able to run a service without strikes and stroppy driver becoming more attractive in spite of the cost involved.

I think this is just an expression of your own views of unions/“stroppy” drivers rather than anything relevant to what is being discussed. As someone who lives in London and used the tube regularly I can’t say I feel “held to ransom” and strikes are rare. Where they do occur they invariably aren’t just about pay. The Olympics were over a decade ago, now, so that seems a strange thing to bring up.

Even if drivers were paid double or treble what they get now, based on some of the knowledgeable comments above, it seems unlikely they there would be a business case for automation.

I’d bet money that HGVs (for example) will go driverless before London Underground. Much bigger savings to be made there.

 

[Mag_seven]

We are starting to get side-tracked into a debate about driverless trains which is off-topic for this thread and has been debated many times in the past. Can we get back to discussing graffiti and disrepair please.

 

[Vespa]

*(Back on topic)

Preventing Graffiti damage to rail assets Requires pro active security, this requires pro active management, it's simple as that it's the same as "broken windows" syndrome, if graffiti "artists" see that the trains are not being cleaned up and there's no security, it will encourage more incursion on the tracks, this increase risk touching live rails and trains hitting them, this could put Tfl in the dock and fined.



*(Side track)
I'm not anti train drivers, it's a skilled job I've had a few driving experiences to understand some aspects of that, I'm merely cautioning against shooting themselves in the foot. This is my last post about it on this thread

 

[43066]

Preventing Graffiti damage to rail assets Requires pro active security, this requires pro active management, it's simple as that it's the same as "broken windows" syndrome, if graffiti "artists" see that the trains are not being cleaned up and there's no security, it will encourage more incursion on the tracks, this increase risk touching live rails and trains hitting them, this could put Tfl in the dock and fined.

The graffiti generally is cleaned away pretty promptly, the more significant issue in terms of scruffy appearance is the state of the underlying paint.

It’s difficult to prevent graffiti when people are brazen enough to tag trains when they’re in service, as @bramling has alluded to above, and which I have personally witnessed more than once.

 

[J-2739]

Hong Kong's trains and stations are pretty much immaculate, and it's far busier a city than London. I'm told the same is true of Singapore. In the UK there are cities with traditionally far worse reputations than London where you won't often see graffitied trains. Glasgow, Liverpool, Newcastle...

I'm not sure about graffiti, but Newcastle Metro trains seem to be vandalised in many other ways.

 

[Florence Rox]

Even the relatively new S8 stock is looking very shabby. There is damage to the paintwork on several trains, the seats, especially the window seats, are worn out and uncomfortable, and the paintwork on the outside of the train, including carriage numbers, is falling off. This is due to cutting costs trying to run at a profit

 

[birchesgreen]

The whole country is suffering from this malaise not just the Underground.

 

[Silent]

I was meaning the red and blue parts of the livery, not the roundels. This photo shows fairly vibrant colours for a 30 year old paint scheme (despite some of it peeled off).

Even so the paint, at least on Met line is noticeably yellowed. Maybe it’s due to not cleaning enough but even so to me it makes the s stock look a bit old. Not old as in old, old, but more as worn out.

I don’t know if the Met Lines environment causes this though, going far or into the suburbs, more contact with greenery and mud maybe, the high speeds.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

After a heavy trip on the Underground yesterday, travelling on the Circle, H&C, Central, Northern and Bakerloo lines. I interestingly concluded that despite the Bakerloo 1972TS age and vandalism, it sill seemed in better condition than the other lines. These trains have seen many modifications recently with new LED lights and various other mods, I travelled from Willesden Junction to Charing Cross with a enthusiastic fast driver who had just got the technique spot on! The train I was on really performed well and accelerated quickly and smoothly, and also experienced a few Westinghouse break applications at Kilburn Park and Maida Vale. Apart from the rather persistent HTB tag, and the severely scratched windows these trains still seem in good condition! with their lovely seat comfort a bonus compared to the likes of the 1995, 1996, 1973 and 1992TS.

The 1992TS just seems neglected and knacked in every respect. Apart from the very low down though not worn seats) the departure is riddled with screeches now at every station, also the doors do not seem tight enough and the partitions shake ominously when the train stops. The door chimes are barely audible and at one point they stuck on between Bond Street and Marble Arch, For some reason the dwell time at each station was oddly long at 13:00 hours and the train emitted strange forced hissing noises at regular intervals. When we arrived at Oxford Circus Eastbound the was our train to Hainault Via Newbury Park, followed by an Epping train six minutes after followed by a Loughton train nine minutes after. Considering this is the Central Line at midday the service provision is scandalous!

I travel on the Northern Line often and I always notice is just how rough and jerky the 1995TS is, departing every station the train jerks frantically in to life and the same when decelerating. Could this be due to the extra strain on the motors that the ATO entails? Because it never used to be this bad five or six years ago. I understand that the 1996TS may have the same trouble. The 1995TS interiors are looking dreadful in dire need of some TLC, the seat moquette from 2013 just looks awfully worn and faded, nor is the any padding, you are just sitting on some metal with a thin worn fabric around it! The trains seem to still do their job well but are looking rather sorry for themselves.

The S Stock also is very rough riding especially in the Kings Cross-Edgware Road area, also the seating is vile. Of the trains I travelled on most of the seats where threadbare and worn. Also the whole of the Victoria Line from previous visits to London is looking awful, the 2009TS just looks faded and worn in every respect, the stations seem stuffy, sweaty and unbreathable the air quality on that line seems very bad compared to other lines. Has any one noticed how dimly lit stations are nowadays? I am sure stations were better lit five to ten years ago!

 

[DarloRich]

if it is managed decline it is manged decline without malice. Is this not what happens to public services when you have 15 years of Tory rule? Funding is cut ( and/or politicised) so to keep the show on the road other things are reduced or dispensed with. You end up having to make "can kicking" decisions because the funding to fix issues/invest in improvements just isn't available.

I am sure staff morale and goodwill is also pretty low so people just wont go the extra mile. They just cant be bothered because they feel so unloved.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Interesting! I think the PPP did some very good things to the Underground aswell, lines like the Northern and Piccadilly platforms where really referbished well with good information, lighting and a fresh feel.

Apparently TFL are pursuing a program to upgrade the signaling of the Sub Surface Lines and invest in large quantities for improved station amenities and CCTV and lighting. This does seem rather over optimistic considering they are in managed decline?

Am I the only person who thinks the air quality on the tube just feels so thick and unbreathable nowadays? I always feel wheezy when I have just travelled on it. Do other people share this view and has it really got worse? You do worry for the drivers and the people, who have to be exposed to that vile air for many houres daily, really quite worrying.