Increasingly sad state of London Underground trains - graffiti and disrepair

[boiledbeans2]

Do Picadilly line carriages have CCTV? I notice at the moment it mostly targets lines without train CCTV. Pretty brazen if they're moving up to other lines

I doubt CCTV would discourage them. All they have to do is put on a Covid-era mask and a hoodie, and nobody will recognise them.

There are CCTVs at the gatelines, but that doesn't discourage people from pushing the barriers.

 

[Gostav]

I travelled on the District line on Sunday and noticed corrosive graffities on the bodywork of at least two Metropolitan trains.

There are now many posts on Reddit and other dedicated graffiti forums asking for sources and recipes for corrosive inks, with ingredients ranging from brake fluid to the dangerous etchant solution. Some graffiti artists have lost fingers or eyesight due to using hydrofluoric acid without any effective protection, but their successors still enjoy doing it.

 

[yorkie]

I wonder and think I notice social media actually makes trends blow up much more however the trends are more homogeneous, I think. I see that with other trends. Tagging underground trains is probably a big trend for youths now.

Roughly what proportion of youths do you estimate engages in this activity?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Apr 2025 ==

I travelled on the District line on Sunday and noticed corrosive graffities on the bodywork of at least two Metropolitan trains...

Do you realise that these graffiti "artists" aim for people such as yourself to take, and publish photos?

By publishing photos, you are giving them the attention they desperately crave; it's seen as a 'win' by the vandals.

 

[Gostav]

Do you realise that these graffiti "artists" aim for people such as yourself to take, and publish photos?

If a few years ago I certainly wouldn't have posted the photo, but there are so many graffiti-covered trains in the London area today that it's hard to pretend it doesn't happen. And I think a lot of people here don't realize how destructive this corrosive graffiti is - this is graffiti that has been washed off, but the corrosion has damaged the paint.

 

[mrmartin]

It's amazing how bad this has got so quickly. It was rare to see any graffiti whatsoever on trains or tracks, now it's rare not to see it after COVID.

What is BTP actually doing? No doubt seeing trains in service like that is going to encourage a lot more copycats and I suspect (like most crimes) there are probably a few dozen extremely prolific people causing a ridiculous amount of criminal damage (I wouldn't be surprised if some of these people have caused £10m+ worth in damage by themselves?).

And given the use of acid it's a serious danger to other passengers. I really do not think it would be that hard to infiltrate one of these groups if they wanted to, if masks/CCTV is the issue. The FT did an interview with one major graffiti person a year or two back!

Interestingly I read on one Reddit forum comment a while back that the UK used to have very serious enforcement of graffiti and it was a "known fact" which deterred a lot of people.

 

[Silent]

I have no idea

Roughly what proportion of youths do you estimate engages in this activity?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Apr 2025 ==




Do you realise that these graffiti "artists" aim for people such as yourself to take, and publish photos?

By publishing photos, you are giving them the attention they desperately crave; it's seen as a 'win' by the vandals.

 

[Mawkie]

Roughly what proportion of youths do you estimate engages in this activity?

0.00001%? I mean, the acid etching on the Pic is literally 2 or 3 people I think, so it is a tiny proportion.

And I think a lot of people here don't realize how destructive this corrosive graffiti is - this is graffiti that has been washed off, but the corrosion has damaged the paint.

The 'paint' on the 73 stock appears to my inexperienced eye to be some sort of peelable vinyl. Does anyone know if it is traditional paint, or vinyl, or something else?

(Two photos showing apparent 'joins' in the paintwork of a 73 Stock train.)

And given the use of acid it's a serious danger to other passengers.

And staff! I once reported fresh acid damage to the Line Controller and he asked me to test if it was wet! (They no longer ask that.)

 

[announcements]

I doubt CCTV would discourage them. All they have to do is put on a Covid-era mask and a hoodie, and nobody will recognise them.

There are CCTVs at the gatelines, but that doesn't discourage people from pushing the barriers.

I agree - plus, the cameras on board Underground trains are usually housed discreetly and thus aren't a deterrent. In fact, I wonder if the taggers even know which lines have CCTV and which don't?

 

[Meerkat]

Are you in trouble if you are carrying the acid in public? Seems a bit harder to justify than a marker or spray can.

 

[bramling]

I agree - plus, the cameras on board Underground trains are usually housed discreetly and thus aren't a deterrent. In fact, I wonder if the taggers even know which lines have CCTV and which don't?

The CCTV thing is a bit of a red herring. I suspect the people doing this don’t really give a toss whether there’s CCTV or not. The attitude in London is now “no one is going to do anything”. Staff won’t challenge, and BTP are pretty ineffective.

 

[Dstock7080]

The 'paint' on the 73 stock appears to my inexperienced eye to be some sort of peelable vinyl. Does anyone know if it is traditional paint, or vinyl, or something else?
View attachment 178757View attachment 178758
(Two photos showing apparent 'joins' in the paintwork of a 73 Stock train.)

They were certainly painted at refurbishment but over time many panels have been covered with white vinyl to cover previous graffiti/acid damage.
The weld lines do show through the paint and in my opinion the pictures show a painted unit without vinyl.

 

[Gostav]

Are you in trouble if you are carrying the acid in public? Seems a bit harder to justify than a marker or spray can.

They won't carry a bucket of acid, they would fill it to spray cans or markers and of course, these homemade paints pose a huge risk to themselves and other people.

 

[erikvd28]

I was on the H&C line at Aldgate East and a beggar stole an advertisement page to write his 'sad message' on the back..
Wonder how long this current sad state is going to last.

 

[125Spotter]

It always appears to me that the advertisements and maps on the Lizzie are just pushed into their respective holders with a bit of folding, and not otherwise fixed in situ with adhesive or similar to hold them in place. I'm not sure if that's actually the case, but if it is, it amazes me on most trips I take that the maps and ads are actually all still there and haven't been taken as souvenirs or simply removed as vandalism.

 

[73Stock]

The Piccadilly Line tissue beggars get on my nerves.

 

[DavyCrocket]

It always appears to me that the advertisements and maps on the Lizzie are just pushed into their respective holders with a bit of folding, and not otherwise fixed in situ with adhesive or similar to hold them in place. I'm not sure if that's actually the case, but if it is, it amazes me on most trips I take that the maps and ads are actually all still there and haven't been taken as souvenirs or simply removed as vandalism.

That’s correct. There is no adhesive.
You sometimes get them put in very badly on some Tube trains and they fall out on to people’s heads

 

[Mag_seven]

Can we refrain from posting any more pictures of graffitied trains going forward please.

thanks

 

[Horizon22]

There needs to be a frankly Draconian crackdown on this plus the fare dodging pandemic.

There just isn't the resources to deal with it all. And even if there was, by the time BTP/security have been mobilised the people will have scarpered and left railway premises.

What is happening on the railway is a wider reflection on societal issues at certain times.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2025 ==

The Piccadilly Line tissue beggars get on my nerves.

Not exclusive to this line. I've seen them on the Elizabeth line and the further reaches of the District too. Not to mention on metro NR routes.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The BTP used to have a dedicated "graffiti squad" - looks like it needs to be reborne.

Targetting is obviosy needed with some high profile action via the judicial system. (Like school chucking out time and holidays)

We had on the DC lines an issue where some schoolkids were caught in the act, I insisted on some police action , - and made it very clear that they had to face up to the consequences - much as I did with so and so's putting obstructions on the line , one of which derailed a 313 on the Abbey Branch. In the latter case , they were prosecuted and they had to explain their actions - with all the right people there - to the driver and guard involved.

I would like to think it made a difference. Any tagging on my 313's and 321's was dealt with quickly - even taking the odd train out of service and "stepping up" - part of my very own policy on fighting this scourge.

 

[mrmartin]

The BTP used to have a dedicated "graffiti squad" - looks like it needs to be reborne.

Targetting is obviosy needed with some high profile action via the judicial system. (Like school chucking out time and holidays)

We had on the DC lines an issue where some schoolkids were caught in the act, I insisted on some police action , - and made it very clear that they had to face up to the consequences - much as I did with so and so's putting obstructions on the line , one of which derailed a 313 on the Abbey Branch. In the latter case , they were prosecuted and they had to explain their actions - with all the right people there - to the driver and guard involved.

I would like to think it made a difference. Any tagging on my 313's and 321's was dealt with quickly - even taking the odd train out of service and "stepping up" - part of my very own policy on fighting this scourge.

I agree. BTP are massively dropping the ball. You could argue that regular spray paint graffiti is "lower priority" for them but the proliferation of acid now has to be a huge safety concern.

It reminds me of an article I read about city of london police, who decided to fit trackers on decoy bikes and wait for them to get stolen and then raided the criminals behind it. Result was a 50%+ drop in bike theft, for probably not a huge amount of resource. I don't know why BTP can't do something similar.

I also disagree with running tagged trains in service. The reason this was done initially was to stop copycats, now they've stopped doing it and it's went nuts. Which is going to require taking a lot more trains out of service for longer if they ever want to get things back to normal again.

 

[vuzzeho]

It reminds me of an article I read about city of london police, who decided to fit trackers on decoy bikes and wait for them to get stolen and then raided the criminals behind it. Result was a 50%+ drop in bike theft, for probably not a huge amount of resource. I don't know why BTP can't do something similar.

What similar thing could they do? Seems like entirely different circumstances. As for solving this issue - more BTP (uniformed and undercover) would probably help it a lot. However, where's the money coming from?

 

[Horizon22]

I agree. BTP are massively dropping the ball. You could argue that regular spray paint graffiti is "lower priority" for them but the proliferation of acid now has to be a huge safety concern.

I don’t think they’re “dropping the ball” it’s just they simply do not have the resources to attend to all tasks and are therefore having to prioritise.

 

[mrmartin]

Well something is broken in the funding system then. TOCs have to pay a fortune for graffiti cleaning, but they fund BTP in the most part. Surely it is cheaper to try to get a set of, I don't know, 5-10 officers that aim to catch the "artists"? We are talking potentially £1m/year of outlay to save much much more than that if you could catch a handful of the most prolific offenders.

I was actually thinking there's a gap in the market for a private investigations firm to be paid by the train maintenance companies (like Hitachi for example) who have train maintenance contracts with the TOCs. They could do an investigation and the do private prosecutions. Similar to what supermarkets are now doing for shoplifting.

 

[Gostav]

Well something is broken in the funding system then. TOCs have to pay a fortune for graffiti cleaning, but they fund BTP in the most part. Surely it is cheaper to try to get a set of, I don't know, 5-10 officers that aim to catch the "artists"? We are talking potentially £1m/year of outlay to save much much more than that if you could catch a handful of the most prolific offenders.

I was actually thinking there's a gap in the market for a private investigations firm to be paid by the train maintenance companies (like Hitachi for example) who have train maintenance contracts with the TOCs. They could do an investigation and the do private prosecutions. Similar to what supermarkets are now doing for shoplifting.

Although not universal but a significant number of graffiti "artists" (apparently the pundits here don't appreciate the term being called them) are obviously relatively wealthy, can use a full box of expensive spray paint in their operations, and are equipped with their 4k cameras and drones for take videos, and can afford flights to travel overseas to leave their "destructive masterpieces" in many countries. These are often the most destructive.

 

[mrmartin]

Although not universal but a significant number of graffiti "artists" (apparently the pundits here don't appreciate the term being called them) are obviously relatively wealthy, can use a full box of expensive spray paint in their operations, and are equipped with their 4k cameras and drones for take videos, and can afford flights to travel overseas to leave their "destructive masterpieces" in many countries. These are often the most destructive.

Yes exactly. The big issue this month has a graffiti takeover with loads of interviews of the "artists". If that can be compiled it should be not difficult to arrest them.

I also think the deterrent effect of prison time will be extremely high. This isn't harden gang members who will take it in their stride, it's often middle class kids with nothing better to do. And it's not done in the heat of the moment, it's meticulously planned.

 

[Gostav]

Yes exactly. The big issue this month has a graffiti takeover with loads of interviews of the "artists". If that can be compiled it should be not difficult to arrest them.

I also think the deterrent effect of prison time will be extremely high. This isn't harden gang members who will take it in their stride, it's often middle class kids with nothing better to do. And it's not done in the heat of the moment, it's meticulously planned.

Judging from the current situation, the deterrent effect of law enforcement is relatively limited.

An example of an activist is 10foot, who was arrested and jailed, but continued to be active in London after his release and was interviewed by the Financial Times 2 years ago. It mentioned:

After hours with 10 Foot, London’s most notorious graffiti writer

He risks his freedom and his life nightly. Why?

www.ft.com

You might ask why, in one of the most surveilled cities on earth, someone like 10 Foot has been able to walk out of jail, go right back to writing and remain free. The answer is simple: 10 Foot can walk through walls. Members of the collective to which he belongs, known as Diabolical Dubstars or DDS, have "finessed" the maintenance keys for the London Underground from rail control rooms. (Finesse is a term for theft that requires significant skill and/or cunning.) As a result, they can navigate the city’s hidden passageways and tunnels freely. They also know more about train timetables and trackside security than most British transport workers.

There involves deeper content, such as the previous thread discussing how easy it is to own a railway master key not too long ago.

 

[pbin]

I’ve just come across a video on Instagram glorifying graffiti on the tube. Clicked on the account to see that there are multiple videos of vandals recording themselves (and their group) tagging trains, walking from one carriage to the next along with comments encouraging it (saying that the trains look “much better” — definitely not).

This inaction to prevent/clean the trains is clearly popularising the idea. It’s only going to get worse.

Edit: Looking through more of the comments, it seems like people are tagging/mentioning other artists (some of whom don’t even live in the UK) to do the same…

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Well something is broken in the funding system then. TOCs have to pay a fortune for graffiti cleaning, but they fund BTP in the most part. Surely it is cheaper to try to get a set of, I don't know, 5-10 officers that aim to catch the "artists"? We are talking potentially £1m/year of outlay to save much much more than that if you could catch a handful of the most prolific offenders.

I was actually thinking there's a gap in the market for a private investigations firm to be paid by the train maintenance companies (like Hitachi for example) who have train maintenance contracts with the TOCs. They could do an investigation and the do private prosecutions. Similar to what supermarkets are now doing for shoplifting.

Unless the courts are prepared to give these graffiti vandals actual prison time, I fear there is little to be gained by catching them in the act.

What is really shocking is it's often the same locations over and over again where trains are getting vandalised; it must be worth investing in a higher level of security at those locations.

I definitely agree that rolling stock thus vandalised should be pulled from service and cleaned immediately, even at the expense of a higher number of cancellations. It should also be made clear exactly what the reason for the cancellation is - it would help generate some pressure in society against such acts in the first place.

Any pictures published online of the results of such vandalism should have the details blurred out - that way we can see the extent of the damage without giving the individual vandals the publicity for their scrawlings that they seek.

 

[Meerkat]

Target a small number of culprits, give the police serious tech support and the threat of proper jail time and lots of community service cleaning graffiti, and offer sentence reductions and rewards for grassing culprits who can then be watched and caught in the act.
Proper punishment, knowledge that they are a target for people with wide resources, and the fear of grasses, is the way to squash most problems.
A bit of international co-operation is needed to identify the travelling culprits - the bar for banning entry to the country is much lower than that for conviction AIUI?

 

[Mawkie]

Proper punishment, knowledge that they are a target for people with wide resources, and the fear of grasses, is the way to squash most problems.

I think the forum underestimates the notoriety graffiti artists enjoy in their own community (and seemingly wider community too). Daniel Halpin famously served time for his dreadful tags, and went on to sell his 'art' and join up with others to form exhibitions for further financial gain. So the conviction did nothing at all to stop him.

Long Dark Tunnel: An Immersive Journey with 10FOOT, TOX, and FUME, London

Attending the first opening private view of the ‘Long Dark Tunnel‘ exhibition was an unforgettable experience that exceeded the hype, daring guests to dive into the world of three legendary kings —10FOOT, TOX, and FUME. The newly revealed secret venue, located just steps from the third exit of...

www.graffitistreet.com

A bit of international co-operation is needed to identify the travelling culprits - the bar for banning entry to the country is much lower than that for conviction AIUI?

Surely this is a joke? You can't possibly think there is going to be some kind of Interpol exercise for some tags?