• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Independent Companies

Status
Not open for further replies.

LiftFan

Member
Joined
27 May 2016
Messages
344
Around here, we have a fair few bus routes and only one of them is run by a major company, the 267 run by FirstGroup... Thankfully it has left a large proportion of routes to be run by others, the most popular being Faresaver. I'm not sure about some companies but I know with Faresaver they run a lot better service with a high percentage of buses actually sticking to the timetable. Sure, they may not have the on board announcements or contactless payment but I much prefer that with friendly drivers and a more reliable service. Are there any independents around your areas that stand out for generally being a good company?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

MarcusL1

Member
Joined
4 Sep 2016
Messages
16
I'd say that TLC is a rather good operator (in the Huddersfield area at least). From my experiences they have been reliable, clean, have decent drivers and cheap fares.
 
Joined
9 Aug 2012
Messages
374
Location
Nottingham
Would TrentBarton be described as a major operator? If not, Nottingham is a good fit. Only Stagecoach add to the NCT/TB/Marshalls/ YourBus mix.
 

mikeg

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2010
Messages
1,757
Location
Selby
Would TrentBarton be described as a major operator? If not, Nottingham is a good fit. Only Stagecoach add to the NCT/TB/Marshalls/ YourBus mix.

And arguably Nottingham Community Transport. And don't forget AOT to Hucknall, unless that's changed since I moved away.

If you like independent bus companies come to Thirsk. Personally I'd kill (well not literally) for the likes of Arriva or Stagecoach to serve here. Heck, even Transdev! Actually Transdev are very good, just not entirely 'major'.
 

Citistar

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2017
Messages
434
Location
The Magical Mendips
Frome - It's a huge black spot for transport

I think that is a bit unfair. Three operators provide commercial services in and around Frome - First, Faresaver and Frome Minibuses. Frome also has buses running seven days a week, unlike the much larger Yeovil to the south of the county. The town also has a railway station.

Whilst there have been cuts to the town's bus services over the past 20 years, there aren't many comparable places that haven't seen reductions. To be honest, in comparison to what was there at deregulation, Frome is doing pretty well.
 

Andyh82

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2014
Messages
3,536
Would TrentBarton be described as a major operator? If not, Nottingham is a good fit. Only Stagecoach add to the NCT/TB/Marshalls/ YourBus mix.

I'm guessing Nottingham must be one of the biggest places where there are pretty much none of the 'big 4' in operation.

(I say pretty much, I know Stagecoach run in with the Pronto but it's very minor in the scheme of things)

Having said that Birmingham with its dominance by Nat Ex could probably be considered as well.
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,642
Location
Yorkshire
I'm guessing Nottingham must be one of the biggest places where there are pretty much none of the 'big 4' in operation.

(I say pretty much, I know Stagecoach run in with the Pronto but it's very minor in the scheme of things)

Having said that Birmingham with its dominance by Nat Ex could probably be considered as well.

Don't forget Stagecoach's Nottingham - Worksop 33.
 

LiftFan

Member
Joined
27 May 2016
Messages
344
I think that is a bit unfair. Three operators provide commercial services in and around Frome - First, Faresaver and Frome Minibuses. Frome also has buses running seven days a week, unlike the much larger Yeovil to the south of the county. The town also has a railway station.

Whilst there have been cuts to the town's bus services over the past 20 years, there aren't many comparable places that haven't seen reductions. To be honest, in comparison to what was there at deregulation, Frome is doing pretty well.

I'm just glad Faresaver and Frome Minibuses stepped in when they did - Given First decided the 267 was the only route to the town they wanted to run any more. Sadly (With the exception of the 267) I think Frome also just has a 6 day a week service which ends fairly early given the amount of students who require the 267/X67 or the X34 to get to colleges in the area (The last bus from Chippenham departs at 16:30 to Frome and the rest terminate at Trowbridge). Fair point about the station although there is that very inconvenient gap of service between the 8:02 and the 10:15 that go to WSB.
 

swifty

Established Member
Joined
19 Sep 2012
Messages
1,672
I'm just glad Faresaver and Frome Minibuses stepped in when they did - Given First decided the 267 was the only route to the town they wanted to run any more. Sadly (With the exception of the 267) I think Frome also just has a 6 day a week service which ends fairly early given the amount of students who require the 267/X67 or the X34 to get to colleges in the area (The last bus from Chippenham departs at 16:30 to Frome and the rest terminate at Trowbridge). Fair point about the station although there is that very inconvenient gap of service between the 8:02 and the 10:15 that go to WSB.

Well you can thank Faresaver for that! By skimming off the day time passengers from the more comprehensive First services, which included evening and Sunday services, it got to the point where it was no longer viable for First. And as Faresaver refuse to operate on evenings or Sundays the passenger gets a better service all round ;)
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,039
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Well you can thank Faresaver for that! By skimming off the day time passengers from the more comprehensive First services, which included evening and Sunday services, it got to the point where it was no longer viable for First. And as Faresaver refuse to operate on evenings or Sundays the passenger gets a better service all round ;)

I was going to make the same point.Liftfan - think you need to understand why First withdrew

There WAS a later service from Chippenham to Frome (arriving in Frome about 1900). There were also evening services between Chippenham and Melksham (albeit operated on tender) all operated with modern First Dart SLFs.

Faresaver decided that they would compete on the route using van derived Mercedes minibuses in between schools workings so skimming off the trade during the day at minimal cost.

First got bored of losing money so they withdrew. Did Faresaver offer to run the later Frome service? Or to operate the evening services? No, so I'd not be painting First Group as the bad person in this instance.
 

takno

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
5,071
First got bored of losing money so they withdrew. Did Faresaver offer to run the later Frome service? Or to operate the evening services? No, so I'd not be painting First Group as the bad person in this instance.

Tend to agree with this - letting all comers break in and skim off the most profitable services is costly in subsidies and destroys effective network operation. On the other hand if you look at somewhere like East Lothian First are more than capable of running a viable service into the ground without any help.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,039
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Tend to agree with this - letting all comers break in and skim off the most profitable services is costly in subsidies and destroys effective network operation. On the other hand if you look at somewhere like East Lothian First are more than capable of running a viable service into the ground without any help.

In many instances, I'd agree that First were culpable in allowing in competitors with poor service delivery and cuts.

Hence why I put the caveat "in this instance" in that the routes concerned had new vehicles put on them in 2005 with a service pattern that was unchanged for the previous 10/15 years. Instead, you had First providing a full service and Faresaver putting out mid to late 1990s Merc minibuses from 0930 to 1500 around schools (with the odd all day board) and skimming off the traffic.
 

LiftFan

Member
Joined
27 May 2016
Messages
344
I was going to make the same point.Liftfan - think you need to understand why First withdrew

There WAS a later service from Chippenham to Frome (arriving in Frome about 1900). There were also evening services between Chippenham and Melksham (albeit operated on tender) all operated with modern First Dart SLFs.

Faresaver decided that they would compete on the route using van derived Mercedes minibuses in between schools workings so skimming off the trade during the day at minimal cost.

First got bored of losing money so they withdrew. Did Faresaver offer to run the later Frome service? Or to operate the evening services? No, so I'd not be painting First Group as the bad person in this instance.

Never saw it like that - I was way too young to even notice the fact First withdrew and Faresaver were trying to get their service on the already proven route. I only noticed when looking at colleges and seeing alternative transport to the train (Can't afford 2k a year to go to college) and mum suggested the 234 route which I looked up and saw had stopped but the X34 replaced it. Tends to happen when the main sources are the Frome times!
 

GRAHAMJ

Member
Joined
27 Jan 2017
Messages
18
Interesting you blame Faresaver. Don't forget that First only run/ran evening and sunday services under contract in the main. When Wilts Council withdrew the funding for the 234 evening service First withdrew the service, surely you don't expect Faresaver to run it at a loss with no support ?

First only normally operate Sunday and evening services in Wiltshire when they are paid to do it. Don't forget too that Faresaver grew on the back of operating the 231, 234, 265, 271/2, evening and Sunday services at the outset. This along with town services that First were not interested in running. First opened the door to Faresaver and once their foot was in the door it was never going to leave.

When Faresaver started operating the 231 evening and sunday services under contract back in the early 1990's, First were runnning a half hourly daytime service on the 231 corridor. Faresaver started operating a more direct daytime service in competition during the day, yes with Mercedes midibuses but lets face it, First were using circa 1975 Bristol VR's until the late 1990's on the corridor (almost 25 years old), no wonder people voted with their feet. Over time Faresaver improved the timetable filling in the gaps, and tweaked the route. Now there is a 20 minute frequency with modern vehicles.

Also did Faresaver drive First off the 635 corridor, the 228 service, the Corsham Town 10 service, the Trowbridge 60 service, the 237, the 272 Melksham Devizes etc ? No, First dropped those services without any encouragement from Faresaver or anyone else.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,039
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Interesting you blame Faresaver. Don't forget that First only run/ran evening and sunday services under contract in the main. When Wilts Council withdrew the funding for the 234 evening service First withdrew the service, surely you don't expect Faresaver to run it at a loss with no support ?

First only normally operate Sunday and evening services in Wiltshire when they are paid to do it. Don't forget too that Faresaver grew on the back of operating the 231, 234, 265, 271/2, evening and Sunday services at the outset. This along with town services that First were not interested in running. First opened the door to Faresaver and once their foot was in the door it was never going to leave.

When Faresaver started operating the 231 evening and sunday services under contract back in the early 1990's, First were runnning a half hourly daytime service on the 231 corridor. Faresaver started operating a more direct daytime service in competition during the day, yes with Mercedes midibuses but lets face it, First were using circa 1975 Bristol VR's until the late 1990's on the corridor (almost 25 years old), no wonder people voted with their feet. Over time Faresaver improved the timetable filling in the gaps, and tweaked the route. Now there is a 20 minute frequency with modern vehicles.

Also did Faresaver drive First off the 635 corridor, the 228 service, the Corsham Town 10 service, the Trowbridge 60 service, the 237, the 272 Melksham Devizes etc ? No, First dropped those services without any encouragement from Faresaver or anyone else.

Sorry but I am going to have to correct you on a few issues

First of all, I wasn't saying that First didn't operate the 234 of an evening commercially NOR that Faresaver should do so. However, they essentially dislodged First from that route who then withdrew everything - however, did Faresaver then strike a deal with Wiltshire Council to replace First? No. Should First have had to try and run an evening service when they didn't have the daytime? Probably difficult to achieve

The other examples that you mention. Well, the 237 was a variant of the 234 at one time, both running two hourly to give an hourly frequency. First took the decision to run the 234 hourly and then run the 237. The latter proved not to be viable - of course, Faresaver operate over that route but is it supported? Yes it is. The other examples you give were also tendered IIRC. As for the 635, that was lost on tender by First and, of course, Faresaver ran it but have since surrendered part of it.

The 272 to Devizes WAS most certainly precipitated by Faresaver who ran a commercial off peak service from Melksham to Bath. That undermined the First service so they cut it back back - it was a direct cause and effect.

Take your point on the age of the Badgerline fleet on the 231 etc and yes, Wiltshire was the poor relation. Lack of investment nationally in the 1980s did mean that many a route was forced to continue on with older fleet than it would've done and Wiltshire seemed to be bottom of the list. You could say the same with W&D using VRs on the 5/6/7/8 before the first Spectras began arriving in 1993 or Swindon and District using knackered Nationals on the X55. However, I'd concede the Badgerline fleet was worse than W&D or C&G.

However, using that as a justification for Faresaver (e.g. they exploited complacency on those routes) wasn't the case when Faresaver decided to mix it with Stagecoach from Chippers to Calne. Nor was it when they competed on the Whiteway service. Nor was it when they introduced the X72 - First were using 2005 Darts at that point. What Faresaver did, and I recognise the strength of the model, was to get schools and college work with ageing minis and use that as a competitive tool supported with some all day working. It is simple and effective and they outmanoeuvred First who sat on their hands (in comparison with Stagecoach's merciless response).



As for Faresaver "at the outset", I remember them in Fosseway days and their reliance on council work and their removal from such work!
 
Last edited:

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,520
Kinch is part of Wellglade which is dominated by Trent Barton ... so it;s unsuprising that some conflate them

Wellglade is the parent company. Trent, Kinch, TM Travel, Notts & Derby etc are all sister companies under the Wellgalde umbrella.
 

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
Tend to agree with this - letting all comers break in and skim off the most profitable services is costly in subsidies and destroys effective network operation. On the other hand if you look at somewhere like East Lothian First are more than capable of running a viable service into the ground without any help.

Interesting discussion about Faresaver etc. The point is, this is the open market model! Anybody is allowed to operate whatever they like commercially, and the non-profitable stuff has to be propped up by the authorities. Vehicle choice is largelt irrelevant, many operators used minibuses back in the day, and all the time they were still legal there was no reason to stop doing so. The cost efficiencies offered by a bulletproof Merc 709 were legendary, if you're a small operator going in under fire, they made perfect sense. Passengers had the choice of using them or sticking with the competition.

Let's also not forget that the big boys have forced many a small independant off the road, it doesn't hurt for the tables to be turned once in a while. First 'losing money' here sounds very much like First being complacent and not fighting hard enough for the business.
 
Joined
10 Mar 2013
Messages
1,010
Presumably that as part of Wellglade the individual constituents are not "independent companies".

however Wellglade is rather more modest an organisation than the big three ( Arriva, First , Stagecoach), not sure how it compares with Centrebus ...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top