Integrated transport - bus routes that should be integrated with the rail network.

[lyndhurst25]

The thread on the UK's inability to do integrated transport has got me thinking. Which bus routes could be sensibly integrated into the current rail network? That would involve the bus link being added to railway timetables, put into the Routeing Guide and rail tickets accepted on the bus. I'm not just thinking of spurs off the rail network to serve towns with no railway station, but also places where a bus link could actually be used in the middle of a rail journey. The bus route may replace a long closed railway line, be in place of a train service that doesn't operate at certain times if the day or on certain days of the week, or just provide a useful link between poorly connected parts of the rail network.

Examples I can think of are:
Southport to Preston (for example, to allow using a single ticket: Hightown to Southport train, Southport to Preston bus, Preston to Blackpool train).
Skipton/Keighley to Colne.
Workington to Penrith.
Barton on Humber to Hull.

 

[PTR 444]

X51 between Dorchester South and Axminster.

 

[DarloRich]

surely for this to happen the bus and train company must be part of the same group or be paid by someone else to offer the service. Why would I bother helping another, unrelated, commercial enterprise to make money?

 

[farci]

surely for this to happen the bus and train company must be part of the same group or be paid by someone else to offer the service. Why would I bother helping another, unrelated, commercial enterprise to make money?

In The Netherlands the government coordinates different public transport modes - train, bus, train/taxis, integrated car rental at stations, provision of bike parking and servicing. As far as I know private operators are making a profit?

Details here

 

[DarloRich]

In The Netherlands the government coordinates different public transport modes - train, bus, train/taxis, integrated car rental at stations, provision of bike parking and servicing. As far as I know private operators are making a profit?

Details here

There is a key phrase in your post: government coordinates different public transport modes

 

[farci]

There is a key phrase in your post: government coordinates different public transport modes

There's another key phrase: As far as I know private operators are making a profit?

I'm sure eg. Arriva are not running train services at a loss. Perhaps some of our Dutch friends could enlighten us

 

[PeterC]

surely for this to happen the bus and train company must be part of the same group or be paid by someone else to offer the service. Why would I bother helping another, unrelated, commercial enterprise to make money?

You can buy tickets covering more than one TOC already, so why should revenue sharing be different because one of them is using rubber tyres?

 

[LancasterRed]

X51 between Dorchester South and Axminster.

X53 between Weymouth and Axminster too or extend the X51 to serve Dorchester West.

While it would likely never see the light of day, extending the 830 to Northallerton or Darlington could have potential. Mind, the fact this is run as a Solo between Preston and Richmond is bonkers as is.

Southport seems the obvious one.

 

[DarloRich]

There's another key phrase: As far as I know private operators are making a profit?

I'm sure eg. Arriva are not running train services at a loss. Perhaps some of our Dutch friends could enlighten us

they are making a profit because there is proper coordination, sensible policy and assume incentivsation to run such services. That is sadly lacking in the UK where bus subsidies and service shave been slashed.

You can buy tickets covering more than one TOC already, so why should revenue sharing be different because one of them is using rubber tyres?

Because their is no political will to make it happen. I wonder how easy it would be to get Z&S buses added to the system? They run, local to me, the kind of services that should be integrated: from outlying village to town/station

 

[alistairlees]

The thread on the UK's inability to do integrated transport has got me thinking. Which bus routes could be sensibly integrated into the current rail network? That would involve the bus link being added to railway timetables, put into the Routeing Guide and rail tickets accepted on the bus. I'm not just thinking of spurs off the rail network to serve towns with no railway station, but also places where a bus link could actually be used in the middle of a rail journey. The bus route may replace a long closed railway line, be in place of a train service that doesn't operate at certain times if the day or on certain days of the week, or just provide a useful link between poorly connected parts of the rail network.

Examples I can think of are:
Southport to Preston (for example, to allow using a single ticket: Hightown to Southport train, Southport to Preston bus, Preston to Blackpool train).
Skipton/Keighley to Colne.
Workington to Penrith.
Barton on Humber to Hull.

You can already buy through fares from (for example) Beverley to Cleethorpes, that involve:
- train from Beverley to Hull
- walk to Hull Bus Station
- bus from Hull Bus Station to Barton-on-Humber
- train from Barton-on-Humber to Cleethorpes

 

[Bletchleyite]

surely for this to happen the bus and train company must be part of the same group or be paid by someone else to offer the service. Why would I bother helping another, unrelated, commercial enterprise to make money?

And with that you sum up the problem!

What you're actually doing is being symbiotic - making you and them money - by making through journeys viable that weren't viable before.

That people don't get that is one key part of the problem under discussion here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ansport-as-a-whole.205481/page-7#post-4631580

As for this thread - pretty much every regional bus service that calls at a railway station. PlusBus is great but underpublicised. And there's no model at all for using a bus in the middle of a rail journey, e.g. something like Bletchley-MKC, MKC-Oxford (X5), Oxford-wherever.

Wales has even better examples but have wilfully decided not to pursue that model with Traws, which beggars belief as doing so wouldn't have detracted from other uses! The whole Snowdon Sherpa network (mostly tendered, so again nothing stopping them) is a perfect example. They prefer building a small stone bus shelter round the back of Betws station opposite a car park, laughably calling it platform 3, and leaving the operators to it.

 

[NorthOxonian]

There's a very long list - but in general priority should be given to express routes which run between major centres not connected by rail. I know some of these are already integrated but I'm thinking of things like:

X4 from Northampton to Peterborough
X5 from Oxford to Cambridge
X60 (and parallel routes) from Aylesbury to Milton Keynes
X45/X46 from Newcastle to Consett
X12 from Durham to Middlesbrough
X93 from Middlesbrough to Scarborough
X95 from Carlisle to Galashiels
X18 from Evesham to Coventry
250 from Hull to Scunthorpe
350 from Hull to Grimsby/Cleethorpes

They're just the first routes which come to mind. That isn't an exhaustive list - there are a huge number of other services which could become integrated with rail. Another thread discussed the X4 and X5 between Penrith, Keswick, and Workington - another great candidate.

 

[Taunton]

You often find that, in the reduced bus networks of nowadays, the few remaining worthwhile regular routes are actually those parallel to the railway, because these are the main transport corridors. So the railway and the bus company are often direct competitors.

I really don't get the bit about through tickets - there's no real issue with buying separately from both. Most of those at the main London stations continue by bus or Tube, paying again without concern.

 

[lyndhurst25]

You can already buy through fares from (for example) Beverley to Cleethorpes, that involve:
- train from Beverley to Hull
- walk to Hull Bus Station
- bus from Hull Bus Station to Barton-on-Humber
- train from Barton-on-Humber to Cleethorpes

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

One of he infamous "Humberlink not bus" fares, that doesn't include the bus journey in the middle - you have to pay extra for that. A prime example of UK non-integrated transport!

 

[Bletchleyite]

99 from MK to Luton Airport (actually mostly used by commuters in my experience) was created as a RailLinks service but is continued by Stagecoach as it's profitable. I don't believe it appears in the railway ticketing/timetable system in any form any more, though. So not only have we failed to gain some, we've actually lost them!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really don't get the bit about through tickets - there's no real issue with buying separately from both. Most of those at the main London stations continue by bus or Tube, paying again without concern.

Contactless makes it less of a faff, but it is annoying not knowing the fare as they can be a bit hard to find out!

Really, the issue of through fares relates to the railway persisting with return-fare pricing. Let's say I want to go away for a weekend to, I don't know, Leicester from Bletchley (I don't, I don't even like the place, but let's say I did, perhaps a friend lived there or something). I go out on the Marston Vale, great. But I can't come back on the X5 on a Sunday without paying a lot more.

If everything was single-fare priced, this wouldn't be a problem - I'd just pay for the relevant journeys in each direction and not be penalised. And indeed, if the bus operators put their fares into the railway fare database and timetables into the planners, something like Trainsplit could indeed issue it!

 

[DarloRich]

And with that you sum up the problem!

What you're actually doing is being symbiotic - making you and them money - by making through journeys viable that weren't viable before.

but that isnt going to happen under the current system! There is no incentive to bother.

99 from MK to Luton Airport (actually mostly used by commuters in my experience) was created as a RailLinks service but is continued by Stagecoach as it's profitable. I don't believe it appears in the railway ticketing/timetable system in any form any more, though. So not only have we failed to gain some, we've actually lost them!

I hate buses but that (and the X5) is a good service - i use it to get to the airport when i go for an evil, eco destroying flight

 

[Bletchleyite]

but that isnt going to happen under the current system! There is no incentive to bother.

There is - you make more money for you as well!

I put not realising this under not realising the running time (and therefore PVR costs) savings from simplifying fare structures, contactless payment on the TfL model and dual-door on cross-city urban routes. IOW, other than a few notable operators, most of whom have or have had something to do with either Alex Hornby or Best Impressions at some point, and definitely do not have anything to do with FirstGroup, bus companies are incredibly conservative (small C) and won't innovate.

I hate buses but that (and the X5) is a good service - i use it to get to the airport when i go for an evil, eco destroying flight

I find the timetable a bit of a nuisance for the "early out, late back" flights you tend to get at low-cost airline bases like Luton, though I have used it, I think this is why it's far more heavily used for warehouse workers commuting between Kingston and the stop just off the M1 at Luton which is a bit of a "kiss and ride" - interestingly, these two stops only exist so it can be registered as a local bus service to claim BSOG but are very much the busiest ones at some times of day!

 

[clagmonster]

Barton - Hull was actually introduced as the Humberlink omnibus to replace the BR operated New Holland Pier - Hull Corporation Pier ferries, complete with through fares. Sadly, the through fares no longer include the omnibus element and are only available to stations on the Wolds Coast Line, not to places like Brough or Goole. The connecting bus times still appear in railway systems and pocket timetables - this is a Northern franchise condition, although sadly these are not always timed to connect as they once were, more a problem in the early morning and evening when the omnibus service thins out and the timetable revisions of the two modes do not coincide. So much more could be done here, as it could elsewhere.

Another example close to me I would add is Grimsby - Louth. There are many examples across the country where an interurban omnibus replaced a closed railway, but the omnibus has fallen out of railway publicity.

Would Scarborough - Whitby be useful for through journeys such as Hull - Grosmont. They are probably rather small flows, but awkward entirely by rail all the same.

 

[DarloRich]

The kind of service I would like to see integrated are local services like the one I mentioned. Can I get a bus from Simpson to Blethcley station? I bet I cant. Once we have that sorted out we should look at a web of routes leading to main stations form outlying non rail served towns

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Another problem is that the hub of the local bus services is frequently not at the railway station and for someone unfamiliar with the city or town, not entirely obvious how you get from one to the other.

Visiting Hull was an exception, where a bus station has been added to the side of the main railway station. Without knowing the history, it looks as if the bus part took over a redundant platform or two.

 

[alistairlees]

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

One of he infamous "Humberlink not bus" fares, that doesn't include the bus journey in the middle - you have to pay extra for that. A prime example of UK non-integrated transport!

Good point!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The kind of service I would like to see integrated are local services like the one I mentioned. Can I get a bus from Simpson to Blethcley station? I bet I cant. Once we have that sorted out we should look at a web of routes leading to main stations form outlying non rail served towns

You can get one from Simpson to Bletchley bus station. This of course is a fairly long way from the railway station, but only because you have to walk all the way round. Bletchley station direly needs an entrance on the bus station side to solve this - there seems some debate whether EWR will deliver this, but it really needs to.

It doesn't need to be a main entrance, as it's mostly a commuter origin that'd still be the other side, as the other side is convenient for the residential areas and the car park which constitute the main demand. Just a set of stairs, a lift and a TVM would do. The barriers could be remote monitored by the staff on the other side.

 

[DarloRich]

You can get one from Simpson to Bletchley bus station. This of course is a fairly long way from the railway station, but only because you have to walk all the way round. Bletchley station direly needs an entrance on the bus station side to solve this - there seems some debate whether EWR will deliver this, but it really needs to.

You can also get the same bus to the more important Fenny Stratford station which has much better access

You are of course right. It is things like that access issue which really hinders an integrated system.

 

[Llandudno]

And with that you sum up the problem!

What you're actually doing is being symbiotic - making you and them money - by making through journeys viable that weren't viable before.

That people don't get that is one key part of the problem under discussion here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ansport-as-a-whole.205481/page-7#post-4631580

As for this thread - pretty much every regional bus service that calls at a railway station. PlusBus is great but underpublicised. And there's no model at all for using a bus in the middle of a rail journey, e.g. something like Bletchley-MKC, MKC-Oxford (X5), Oxford-wherever.

Wales has even better examples but have wilfully decided not to pursue that model with Traws, which beggars belief as doing so wouldn't have detracted from other uses! The whole Snowdon Sherpa network (mostly tendered, so again nothing stopping them) is a perfect example. They prefer building a small stone bus shelter round the back of Betws station opposite a car park, laughably calling it platform 3, and leaving the operators to it.

Not just the bus operators trying to find Platform 3 at Betws, it is not obvious for the rail passengers.
The very least they could do is have a Windermere arrangement no formal connections or through tickets but at least you can’t miss where the bus stops are in relation to the station!

 

[paul1609]

You can also get the same bus to the more important Fenny Stratford station which has much better access

You are of course right. It is things like that access issue which really hinders an integrated system.

I accidentally found Fenny Stratford Station last year whilst trying to find MK Dons from Bletchley station. It wasn't quite the rural idyllic halt that I'd imagined!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not just the bus operators trying to find Platform 3 at Betws, it is not obvious for the rail passengers.
The very least they could do is have a Windermere arrangement no formal connections or through tickets but at least you can’t miss where the bus stops are in relation to the station!

The obvious place to have a bus station of a reasonable size would be where the present short-stay car park is, conveniently next to the toilets too. They could just allow short-stay parking in the long-stay car park (they presently don't, which means if the short-stay one is full you have to pay the all-day rate for the main one) plus having a smaller number of 15 minute bays for stopping for a wee or to get takeaway food from one of the shops/cafes (for which there is presently no proper provision at all). The main car park is quite big and I don't recall ever having had problems getting into it.

 

[mmh]

Not just the bus operators trying to find Platform 3 at Betws, it is not obvious for the rail passengers.
The very least they could do is have a Windermere arrangement no formal connections or through tickets but at least you can’t miss where the bus stops are in relation to the station!

The only way you could have the bus stop closer to the station entrance would be to use part of the station car park, which would probably half its capacity and be unpopular with everyone. You wouldn't want a stop directly outside the station, it's bad enough with coaches in the lay-by outside. Ideally you'd move that into a car park too.

The bus stop isn't far, plus from a tourism view you don't want perfectly timed buses to trains there, you want to encourage people to wander around for a little bit. Which is what the majority of the time people are there for.

Do they really call it Platform 3? Does that mean the railway museum's little train is platform 2? That's bonkers!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only way you could have the bus stop closer to the station entrance would be to use part of the station car park, which would probably half its capacity and be unpopular with everyone.

It's not the "station car park", it's a short-stay car park for visitors (which I have a feeling might be railway-owned[1], but that's neither here nor there, really). There is no actual "station car park", but in so far as one could be used for it (for a day trip by train) the main long-stay one round the back is the one that's relevant.

Notably Parkopedia (which is normally quite reliable) has the charges the wrong way round, showing the large car park as the short-stay, but it in fact is not, they're the other way round.

[1] The one time I've been able to get a space in it, in February in a weekend where most visitors to Wales went home early due to the severe storms that weekend, I *think* the card payment went through as "Arriva Trains Wales" (sic) on my card.

You wouldn't want a stop directly outside the station, it's bad enough with coaches in the lay-by outside. Ideally you'd move that into a car park too.

By all means hide the tourist coaches round the back - they could use the old "platform 3" stop instead. But they're a different thing, and something you're not needing to encourage at the expense of cars.

The bus stop isn't far, plus from a tourism view you don't want perfectly timed buses to trains there, you want to encourage people to wander around for a little bit. Which is what the majority of the time people are there for.

It's not an attractive place, round the back by the bins in the car park. Public transport needs to be prominent and attractive.

Edit: I looked at Google aerial photos, and I reckon you could put in a long bus stop with a decent, in-keeping "proper" shelter on one side of the short-stay car park at the expense of approximately 20 parking spaces, the other side of the car park could remain in use. Possibly an even better option would be to send the tourist coaches round the back and use that area for say 3 nose-in bays.

Do they really call it Platform 3? Does that mean the railway museum's little train is platform 2? That's bonkers!

They did, though I don't know if they still do. There's another such example at Llandudno Jn (I forget the number - is it zero?) but I believe it's now disused and the buses stop on the road outside.

 

[RT4038]

In The Netherlands the government coordinates different public transport modes - train, bus, train/taxis, integrated car rental at stations, provision of bike parking and servicing. As far as I know private operators are making a profit?

Details here

But the private operators in the Netherlands are not taking the commercial risk of the revenue, as they do in the UK. The private operators of buses are making a profit because the Dutch government is taking this revenue risk.