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Intended notice of prosecution

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Steve Nij

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Early on the morning of 21st April 2014 (Easter Monday) my son travelled from Kings Cross to Stevenage as one of a group of six passengers.

He doesn't travel on the railway very often and decided it would be prudent to check with barrier staff at Kings Cross, before travelling, to ensure that the tickets they held were still valid for travel.

The member of staff there assured them that they were OK and allowed them all through the ticket barrier.

On arrival at Stevenage they found that their tickets wouldn't work at the barriers and, not surprisingly, an RPI stopped them.

Three of the passengers explained the situation to this RPI, he accepted their explanation and they were allowed to leave the station. However, at this point another RPI approached and immediately took a contrasting view. The first RPI seemed to be intimidated by her, and took no further part in the matter, leaving my son in a difficult position as he had taken issue with the second RPI purely on the basis that according to two independent members of rail staff, at completely separate stations, he was travelling legally.

The long and the short of it is that he has received a notice of intended prosecution, not due to any problem with his ticket but for allegedly failing to hand over his ticket for inspection.

He maintains that he handed his ticket over straight away when asked. After all, he had nothing to hide: he had been told his ticket was valid for travel. The proof that he handed over his ticket should be on the booking hall CCTV.

Has anybody out here had a similar experience at the hands of revenue staff ? Any comments or advice would be very much appreciated. Many thanks for your help.
 
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GadgetMan

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Are you sure your son is being accused of failing to hand over his ticket? You may just be misreading the letter as similar wording is commonly used when a passenger produces an INVALID ticket. The wording is usually along the lines of "failed to produce when requested, a valid ticket for the journey....".

You haven't told us what led to the confusion as to why the ticket may or may not have been valid for travel.
 

Nick W

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Did your son have reasons to believe the tickets were not invalid, leading to asking a member of staff? If so, was this pointed out to the first member.

To the best of his knowledge, does he know why the tickets might not have worked in the barriers? What was the accepted "explanation"?

What did the RPI say to your son, prior to your son being asked for contact details?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are you sure your son is being accused of failing to hand over his ticket? You may just be misreading the letter as similar wording is commonly used when a passenger produces an INVALID ticket. The wording is usually along the lines of "failed to produce when requested, a valid ticket for the journey....".

You haven't told us what led to the confusion as to why the ticket may or may not have been valid for travel.

Based on what the OP has posted, the violation appears to be the following:
A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.
not
In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.
which means it is possible that the OP's son did indeed take issue (not a diplomatic idea) with the second RPI at the destination, and did indeed delay in handing over tickets. However, if this really was the case, it sounds possible that the second RPI had a power trip, undermined and intimidated a colleague and took down the details.

It's also possible something was "wrong" with the tickets and only the final RPI was diligent enough to spot it, given the barriers took issue.
 

Class377

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Surely, even if his ticket is invalid, he has been authorised travel?

Then again I wouldn't recommend arguing with FCC!
 

Deerfold

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He maintains that he handed his ticket over straight away when asked. After all, he had nothing to hide: he had been told his ticket was valid for travel. The proof that he handed over his ticket should be on the booking hall CCTV.

Unfortunately, unless you asked for it some time ago, I'd be very surprised if this footage still exists two months later.
 

Steve Nij

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Hi everybody. First of all, many thanks for your swift feedback. I had a look at the letter and it states:

On the above date you were stopped and questioned in regard to the following alleged offence(s):

"Failing to hand over a rail ticket for inspection"

I don't know what sort of ticket it was as the RPI retained it, and it's a long time since I worked in a railway booking office so my knowledge of ticketing is probably way out of date. It must have been some sort of return. Whatever it was, the staff at Kings Cross considered it to be valid for travel, along with those of his fellow travellers. I just get the feeling that, unable to get my son re the validity of his ticket, the second RPI decided that the alleged offence of failing to hand over a rail ticket for inspection was the next best means of stitching hm up. It would basically be his word against hers. Just a thought... could the member of staff at Kings Cross be liable to disciplinary action if they knowingly or inadvertantly gave incorrect advice and allowed somebody to travel and this led to the passenger finding himself on the wrong side of the law at his destination ? And would the first RPI at Stevenage also be liable to disciplinary action if he had wrongly allowed the first three passengers to leave the station, leading my son to believe that he was also travelling legally ? Once again, many thanks for your help with this topic.
 

cuccir

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We've seen cases before where FCC RPIs have not been the most professional. Which is not to tarnish a whole company's staff/contractors, but equally there are some less helpful members of the group. So the notion that this is a trumped up claim is not unimaginable, although there may be some basis to it as well.

The RPI will have written down a detailed description of the event. Whatever action you take, it would be good for you and your son to do this together. You've also not made it clear what happened in that interaction with the second RPI: did your son refuse to hand over a ticket? If so, how long for?
 

talltim

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He must have handed over a ticket (valid or not) for the RPI to have retained it.
 

furlong

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On the above date you were stopped and questioned in regard to the following alleged offence(s):
"Failing to hand over a rail ticket for inspection"
I don't know what sort of ticket it was as the RPI retained it,

So not a rail ticket then! What does the paperwork supplied at the time of the incident say?
And what else do *you* know about the ticket that was "used" to make the journey and the journey itself?
 

island

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I don't think discussions of disciplinary action against staff will help the matter at hand, and, in any case, they would be confidential as between the TOC and its staff.
 

Yew

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I don't know what sort of ticket it was as the RPI retained it


Surely a receipt should have been issued?

Also, did the RPI ask for the ticket after your son had passed through the barriers? as then technically (according to some case law, other members may be able to say exactly what) his journey will have ended.
 

34D

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Presumably your son lives in Stevenage? I'm going to guess he and his friends were out on the razzle in London and missed the last train home.

They then attempted to board a train on the morning of 16th April showing a ticket dated 15th April (made up dates)?

If so can you advise of this, and we will provide suggestions.
 

Greenback

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A few questions have come to me as I read the first post

Early on the morning of 21st April 2014 (Easter Monday) my son travelled from Kings Cross to Stevenage as one of a group of six passengers.

How early was this?

He doesn't travel on the railway very often and decided it would be prudent to check with barrier staff at Kings Cross, before travelling, to ensure that the tickets they held were still valid for travel.

Was that because they were travelling on the return portion of day return tickets?

The member of staff there assured them that they were OK and allowed them all through the ticket barrier.

Were the tickets from Stevenage to London or somewhere else?

On arrival at Stevenage they found that their tickets wouldn't work at the barriers and, not surprisingly, an RPI stopped them.

Three of the passengers explained the situation to this RPI, he accepted their explanation and they were allowed to leave the station. However, at this point another RPI approached and immediately took a contrasting view. The first RPI seemed to be intimidated by her, and took no further part in the matter, leaving my son in a difficult position as he had taken issue with the second RPI purely on the basis that according to two independent members of rail staff, at completely separate stations, he was travelling legally.

The second person may have had a different, and incorrect view of the time that day returns cease to be valid, if I am correct in my other assumptions.

I'm sorry for all of the questions and guesswork. But I'm afraid it's difficult to offer advice without more information, particularly if it were to come directly from your son.
 

bb21

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If your son can remember the price of the tickets then we might be able to work out what tickets he had.

Surely a receipt should have been issued?

Also, did the RPI ask for the ticket after your son had passed through the barriers? as then technically (according to some case law, other members may be able to say exactly what) his journey will have ended.

A receipt must be issued to enable the passenger to complete his journey.

If it is at the end of the passenger's journey, there is no requirement to provide a receipt.
 

Class377

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If your son can remember the price of the tickets then we might be able to work out what tickets he had.

That's what I had in mind - of course, if it was paid for by card, then even the date would be enough, as it should be on the statement?
 

Haywain

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The second person may have had a different, and incorrect view of the time that day returns cease to be valid, if I am correct in my other assumptions.

I don't think it is likely to be that as the last Sunday night train from Kings Cross is at 01:36, with the next at 05:something. That leaves a clear distinction between the days.

I have a suspicion that there may be something more than just the time involved in this - perhaps the wrong numbers on groupsave or a misused discount.
 

Greenback

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I have the same suspicions, but I thought it more likely that the group missed the last train and then tried to use the tickets after 0429. But until we get some more info it's all speculation.
 

Nick W

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So (boldly) assuming perfect communication between the OP, the OP's son and us, the TOC has a claim by one of their staff that a ticket was not handed over. The evidence from the OP is as follows:
  • The ticket was handed over on two occasions, allowing the group to enter and exit the two stations respectively
  • The OP has given a valid name and address to the member of staff in question
  • The OP claims that the ticket was handed over and retained by the last member of staff

To me, the TOC's case seems very dubious.
 

Steve Nij

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Thanks again for all your help. I have not had a chance to ask my son but I am guessing that the ticket was a day return, issued on the Sunday, and this was why my son and his friends checked with staff at Kings Cross on the Easter Monday morning. He says this member of staff advised them that their tickets were still valid for travel first thing on that morning, and let them through the barrier. The letter shows he was stopped at Stevenage at around 0650hrs. At Stevenage three of the group had already been allowed through the barriers by the first RPI before my son was stopped by his colleague. He had not yet passed through the barriers. I must admit that I always thought a Day Return ticket was only valid during the day it was issued but hopefully the member of staff at Kings Cross would be fully aware of all current ticketing regulations.
 

bb21

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I think this makes it a bit clearer.

The difficulty I think is proving that your son was granted permission by gateline staff to travel. I find it strange that the gates would have been fully staffed on a Bank Holiday Monday morning at that hour, but I could be wrong.
 

Haywain

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Sounds to me as if they travelled on the 06:30 East Coast service in which case there would not have been barrier staff on duty for the relevant platforms. They could have spoken to almost anyone at Kings Cross, and quite possibly someone without authority to allow travel - even FCC staff would not have that authority for an East Coast train (and vice versa). It would be fairly unlikely that there would be a check on the train and I would suggest that their arrival was just about the time the barriers were being manned, so it is possible that the 3 friends passed through an open barrier that was then closed. There may be an element of bad luck in that, but if the ticket was a day return for the Sunday, it definitely wasn't valid.
 

Steve Nij

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Many thanks for your comments. Depressingly It is beginning to sound as if Haywain could be right. I have fired off a string of texts to my son based on what you have said. I will await his reply and if there is nothing positive to report I will bring this thread to a close. Once again, many thanks to everyone who took the time and trouble to contribute. Your help is very much appreciated.
 

Nick W

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It seems likely that the TOC have made a mistake and chosen to ask for an explanation based on the wrong offence then. I imagine the error will noticed at an early stage, and have no effect on proceedings.

For an RPI to permit a day return ticket to be used on a train so early in the day, without proper scrutiny, is an embarrassment. Another case of "the man on the platform said" then?
 

34D

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Many thanks for your comments. Depressingly It is beginning to sound as if Haywain could be right. I have fired off a string of texts to my son based on what you have said. I will await his reply and if there is nothing positive to report I will bring this thread to a close. Once again, many thanks to everyone who took the time and trouble to contribute. Your help is very much appreciated.

How old is the son?

I ask both from the perspective of what the TOC might do (age dependent), and also whether he is best placed to create an account on here and get his own ammunition?
 

MyFriendMary

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The scene that Haywain describes is one I personally see on a regular basis on Sat/Sunday morning services when just starting the shift. Again, from personal experience, as there are mates around and booze still in the body - silly things can happen. Not to say your son has but you can see why the RPI/Gateline staff have acted hard on the matter.
 

Steve Nij

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I spoke to my son. He is adamant that staff at Kings Cross were asked and that his happy band were told they could travel on their tickets. He travelled on a First Capital Connect service from Kings Cross to Stevenage but can not remember from which platform it departed. I suppose all he can do now is wait to see what FCC say about the matter. Anyway, many thanks again to everyone who took the time and trouble to contribute.
 
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