intention to prosecute

[feefee]

hello everyone, my name is felicia i am 22years old.
i study at hertfordshire university and have recently come back from a study abroad year in spain.
within one week of my arrival i got a job interview in london colney for 15th sep.
in which it was at 9am
therefore i topped up my oyster card nearly £20 to get me to st albans from stratford.
i went through kings cross to collect the FCC train and tapped my oyster with intention to continue my journey.

its until i reached st albans, i was looking for a place to touch out, then i approached the inspector to ask why i cant touch out and he explained its a ticket only zone.

in awe and 8minutes to get to my interview, he said can i pay the fine now, i said i havent got enough in my account and im in such a rush.
he then asked for my details, and i honestly gave it to him.
he said expect a letter with further means to pay and i accepted.

now i have received a letter of intention to prosecute me!
they are asking for a letter of explanation about what happened etc.

I really dont understand this, it was a humble mistake and i never had the money to pay at that time, if i was trying to bump the system i wouldnt have topped up an exceeding amount of money, i knew st albans was far but i generally didnt know i needed a ticket. also i was honest in every way because im not someone who goes against rules.

can someone please help me or advise me?, i have a reference number and phone number, cant i call and pay any outstanding fees without going go court?

 

[455driver]

Does the letter say you are being prosecuted or does it say they are asking you for your side of what happened before they make a decision?

Edit-
It looks like they want your side and are not prosecuting you.

 

[feefee]

Does the letter say you are being prosecuted or does it say they are asking you for your side of what happened before they make a decision?

Edit-
It looks like they want your side and are not prosecuting you.

yes they want to hear what happened, but what happens after this?
can i not just call and pay and move on from this process?

the fact i touched in from kingscross to get to st albans shows my intentions to pay

 

[Abpj17]

The St Albans train goes from St Pancras (not Kings Cross) - will be confusing if you reply mentioning KX.

There are lots of announcements and signs about oyster cards only being valid as far north as Elstree & Borehamwood (which is to the south of St Albans)

 

[feefee]

The St Albans train goes from St Pancras (not Kings Cross) - will be confusing if you reply mentioning KX.

There are lots of announcements and signs about oyster cards only being valid as far north as Elstree & Borehamwood (which is to the south of St Albans)

sorry yes i mean st pancras, i got confused with the name as i travelled from stratford to kingscross to then walk down to st pancras and tapped my oyster card to get to st albans

i am going to the train station nearest to me to check if i can print off my travel history as evidence that i tapped in at st pancras, this therefore should indicate that i had every intention to pay and as a human being who didnt know oyster couldnt go through that zone wouldnt pay attention to signs because i was actually looking out for them because i thought it covered that area.

my question still stands of: can i call the Fcc and give them my reference number so i can pay any outstanding fee? as this letter is asking for my side of the story and not money.

 

[Mr Spock]

The St Albans train goes from St Pancras (not Kings Cross) - will be confusing if you reply mentioning KX.

There are lots of announcements and signs about oyster cards only being valid as far north as Elstree & Borehamwood (which is to the south of St Albans)

If she came on the underground she would have got off at Kings Cross/St Pancras so can understand the confusion.

 

[455driver]

yes they want to hear what happened, but what happens after this?
can i not just call and pay and move on from this process?

the fact i touched in from kingscross to get to st albans shows my intentions to pay

They will look at your letter and the statement from the gateline /RPI before deciding what to do.

No you can't just pay because you failed to pay for all of your journey which is an offence, the time to pay was before you caught that last train, not when you got to your destination.

It looks like a clear section 18 offence of failing to hand over a valid ticket (which does not carry a criminal record).

Send in the truthful letter, don't waffle but do apologise and explain why you were out of area, have learnt your lesson etc and that it was a mistake all of your own making which you will not be repeating.

 

[bb21]

Unfortunately it is your responsibility to ensure that you have a valid ticket for travel, and Oyster PAYG is not a valid payment method for a journey to St Albans. As someone has already alluded to earlier, there are plenty of announcements informing you that Oyster PAYG is only valid to Elstree & Borehamwood so ignorance is very unlikely to wash (and it is not a valid excuse in any case).

It sounded as if on arrival at St Albans, they did use their discretion and accept that you made a mistake, so you were offered the opportunity to pay a Penalty Fare of £20, but because you did not have the means to pay that, the matter escalated, and you were reported for consideration of prosecution.

The fact that you touched in at St Pancras can be a double-edged sword. It can be argued that you had no intention of paying the correct fare because Oyster PAYG is not a valid payment method.

You cannot just pay a "fine" as you call it and move on now, as this has moved beyond the stage of a Penalty Fare so the train company will need to hear your version of the events before making a decision on what actions to take next. Should you wish to seek an out-of-court settlement (which will be considerably more than £20) you may also indicate that in your response. The decision as to whether an out-of-court settlement is offered is up to the train company once they hear back from you.

 

[Realfish]

....

It sounded as if on arrival at St Albans, they did use their discretion and accept that you made a mistake, so you were offered the opportunity to pay a Penalty Fare of £20, but because you did not have the means to pay that, the matter escalated, and you were reported for consideration of prosecution.

Having accepted that a penalty fare is justified, it seems unjust that the matter is escalated because the OP might genuinely not have the means to pay the full amount there and then.

Not only that, is it not within the PF rules that those in receipt of a penalty fare have 21 days to pay it, or to pay the balance if only a proportion is paid (e.g. the unticketed portion from Elstree - £4.90)?

 

[bb21]

A Penalty Fare is not an automatic right. Without knowing how the conversation went I am unable to say what made the RPIs change their mind, but what we do know is that they are allowed to change their mind so strictly speaking I can't see what they did wrong from available information so far.

Harsh? Possibly.

 

[Haywain]

Not only that, is it not within the PF rules that those in receipt of a penalty fare have 21 days to pay it, or to pay the balance if only a proportion is paid (e.g. the unticketed portion from Elstree - £4.90)?

The "unticketed portion" of £4.90 would not be correct, as the OP did not have a ticket for any of the journey. The touch in at St Pancras can only be valid if it is combined with a valid touch out. Therefore the unpaid fare was £11.30 and the PF would have been £22.60.

 

[island]

It looks like a clear section 18 offence of failing to hand over a valid ticket (which does not carry a criminal record).

Not necessarily. The OP does not mention whether she was asked to hand over a ticket.

 

[455driver]

Not necessarily. The OP does not mention whether she was asked to hand over a ticket.

She asked where to touch out so it would be a reasonable assumption that she didnt have a ticket!

 

[feefee]

i was not asked to hand over a ticket, nor was i offered to pay part of the fare snd the rest when i had available funds.
i have sent off my letter, with help from my aunty who is a lawyer. I also photocopied my baank statement which shows the evidence that i topped up on 3 occassions with the intention of using that money to get to my destination.
If they had sense, they would calculate that in total i topped up£25 which is more tha the fare itself, so how was i intentionally trying to bump the system?
its insane its been escalated so far, it should not be my fault that i didnt have the money to pay the penalty at that time, however i did not refuse, the inspector said a letter will be sent to me with other means to pay not prosecute me!!

the lack of information given by the inspector has made me confused and i did not prepare for this.

I hope they settle this matter out of court as ive explained my genuine mistake and apologised sincerely

 

[bravot]

Whether you have a negative balance or have topped up £100 is irrelevant. They really won't care. I'm afraid that attempting to apportion blame will not work.

You may have touched in with good intention on completing your journey on Oyster but it is your responsibility to ensure that you have a valid ticket to travel.

The validity of the system is well publicised and you agree to abide by any and all conditions upon receipt of your card.

I agree that your best bet is a settlement covering their administrative fees and an amount of good will.

I would suggest that you write the letter yourself, having a layman read over it if necessary. Any hint of legalese will only serve to put their backs up.

 

[ian959]

What has evidence of topping up your Oyster Card got to do with the your intent to pay your fare to St Alban's when your destination is outside of the well advertised Oyster Card area of validity? Topping up your Oyster Card only demonstrates your intent to use your Oyster Card, which cannot be used to St Alban's.

Perhaps you should review the use of the word insane? The only obvious insanity here is trying to use Oyster to get to a destination outside of the area of its permitted use surely?

Your intent to avoid payment of the fare is demonstrated by the fact that you travelled without any means to pay your validly due fare. How do you believe it is not your fault for failing to have the means by which to pay your fare?

Ignorance of the Oyster Card area of validity is no excuse nor defence to that basic intent.

 

[Clip]

i was not asked to hand over a ticket, nor was i offered to pay part of the fare snd the rest when i had available funds.
i have sent off my letter, with help from my aunty who is a lawyer. I also photocopied my baank statement which shows the evidence that i topped up on 3 occassions with the intention of using that money to get to my destination.
If they had sense, they would calculate that in total i topped up£25 which is more tha the fare itself, so how was i intentionally trying to bump the system?
its insane its been escalated so far, it should not be my fault that i didnt have the money to pay the penalty at that time, however i did not refuse, the inspector said a letter will be sent to me with other means to pay not prosecute me!!

the lack of information given by the inspector has made me confused and i did not prepare for this.

I hope they settle this matter out of court as ive explained my genuine mistake and apologised sincerely

No, what is insane is the amount of abuse that the railway recieves through people who apparently live in London but do not understand where the zones start and end.

i mean its not like there are not a thousand or more posters up at stations all over London and online and in shops and ticket offices showing the zones and the stations within.

I simply do not understand how you feel hard done by when you have been ignorant of the product you are using and trying to justify it by saying you topped up so much - that doesnt matter.

It is your responsibility to ensure you have the correct ticket for your journey. You didnt. Its a hard lesson in life to learn but I hope its one that you will learn by.

 

[feefee]

Whether you have a negative balance or have topped up £100 is irrelevant. They really won't care. I'm afraid that attempting to apportion blame will not work.

You may have touched in with good intention on completing your journey on Oyster but it is your responsibility to ensure that you have a valid ticket to travel.

The validity of the system is well publicised and you agree to abide by any and all conditions upon receipt of your card.

I agree that your best bet is a settlement covering their administrative fees and an amount of good will.

I would suggest that you write the letter yourself, having a layman read over it if necessary. Any hint of legalese will only serve to put their backs up.

Im not blaming Anyone about anything, im saying im human and a genuine mistake should not be criminalised. im not a fraudlent person nor do i go against the law. ive sent of my letter in which i wrote, and explained the story. so if they dont care and wanted to prosecute me anyway, that option shouldnt have been offered. therefore i will await their response and hope for the best, because there are REAL criminals out there that DO NEED to be dealt with rather than something like this! ive acknowledged my fault, and sent off my sincere apologies and asked to settle this out of court

 

[feefee]

No, what is insane is the amount of abuse that the railway recieves through people who apparently live in London but do not understand where the zones start and end.

i mean its not like there are not a thousand or more posters up at stations all over London and online and in shops and ticket offices showing the zones and the stations within.

I simply do not understand how you feel hard done by when you have been ignorant of the product you are using and trying to justify it by saying you topped up so much - that doesnt matter.

It is your responsibility to ensure you have the correct ticket for your journey. You didnt. Its a hard lesson in life to learn but I hope its one that you will learn by.

Sorry your first point is invalid, just because i live in London does not mean i know where the zones start or end. you dont know if i moved to this country last week, you dont know if i use the underground frequently, nor do you know if i am familiar with how the zones work. so that statement needs to be reconsidered.

regardless whether me topping up on 3 ocassions matters or not, it shows an intent to PAY for ANY JOURNEY TAKEN. therefore the fact that the oyster card didnt COVER St Albans, I APPROACHED the inspector to clarify why not that i didnt know. if you read between the lines, clearly i never knew and it was a genuine mistake.

I was happy to pay the penalty, just i didnt have enough on me at that time. hence why i gave my address in which the inspector said I could use a different means to pay through the letter, not that I WOULD BE PROSECUTED.

So this lack of truth and honesty from the inspector has got me into this escalation and that needs to be addressed.

 

[meridian2]

Is it really a prerequisite when travelling in and out of London to know exactly where the zones start and end?
More likely people know the general areas where each zone covers but as to knowing their exact start/end point, I find it very unlikely. Or is that what you meant in the first place?

 

[bb21]

Is it really a prerequisite when travelling in and out of London to know exactly where the zones start and end?

Erm, yes. I don't even know how you would be asking this question in the first place.

Unless you go nowhere near outer London, surely you would check beforehand to make sure Oyster PAYG is valid to your destination, or are we now saying that it is no longer our own responsibility to make sure we have a valid payment method for the fare due?

 

[Clip]

Sorry your first point is invalid, just because i live in London does not mean i know where the zones start or end. you dont know if i moved to this country last week, you dont know if i use the underground frequently, nor do you know if i am familiar with how the zones work. so that statement needs to be reconsidered.

regardless whether me topping up on 3 ocassions matters or not, it shows an intent to PAY for ANY JOURNEY TAKEN. therefore the fact that the oyster card didnt COVER St Albans, I APPROACHED the inspector to clarify why not that i didnt know. if you read between the lines, clearly i never knew and it was a genuine mistake.

I was happy to pay the penalty, just i didnt have enough on me at that time. hence why i gave my address in which the inspector said I could use a different means to pay through the letter, not that I WOULD BE PROSECUTED.

So this lack of truth and honesty from the inspector has got me into this escalation and that needs to be addressed.

Well if thats your attitude Il just go top up me oyster by 50 quid and get on a train to Newcastle should I and then plead ignorance as my defence?

Wrong. Doesnt work like that. Again it is YOUR responsibility to understand the ticket you need to get to your destination. It is YOU that got yourself into this mess and you are trying to deflect that - and if you are so confident about that then take your Aunty as your brief and go to court and challenege them. Go on. Dare you.

Is it really a prerequisite when travelling in and out of London to know exactly where the zones start and end? More likely people know the general areas where each zone covers but as to knowing their exact start/end point, I find it very unlikely. Or is that what you meant in the first place?

As bb21 has said, yes, yes it is. To think otherwise is both stupid and irresponsible.

 

[feefee]

Well if thats your attitude Il just go top up me oyster by 50 quid and get on a train to Newcastle should I and then plead ignorance as my defence?

Wrong. Doesnt work like that. Again it is YOUR responsibility to understand the ticket you need to get to your destination. It is YOU that got yourself into this mess and you are trying to deflect that - and if you are so confident about that then take your Aunty as your brief and go to court and challenege them. Go on. Dare you.



As bb21 has said, yes, yes it is. To think otherwise is both stupid and irresponsible.

You may have time to go to court, and argue this and that, but i dont. hence why ive asked to settle this out of court.
i understand what you are saying,and i have not said its not my responsibility, but it was the responsibility of the assistant that i got in contact with to tell me if that oyster was covered by st albans when i approached her, and also the inspector to tell me the truth about what this letter would actually contain.

again i dont need to keep saying it was a genuine mistake.. im sure youve made many in your life growing up, nor do i need to keep being told its my responsibility because that was accepted from the very point i was happy to pay the penalty but didnt have money at that time.

the letter has been sent, so i will be updating everyone about their reply, and Ill take it from there

Best wishes to me and thanks all for your advise
God bless

 

[Deerfold]

Im not blaming Anyone about anything, im saying im human and a genuine mistake should not be criminalised. im not a fraudlent person nor do i go against the law. ive sent of my letter in which i wrote, and explained the story. so if they dont care and wanted to prosecute me anyway, that option shouldnt have been offered. therefore i will await their response and hope for the best, because there are REAL criminals out there that DO NEED to be dealt with rather than something like this! ive acknowledged my fault, and sent off my sincere apologies and asked to settle this out of court

I'm surprised you thought St Albans would be in the Zones - it's a similar distance out of London to Hatfield - and you say you were a student at the University of Hertfordshire.

When you contact the rail company I advise making it easy for the person reading your letter - use capital letters at the beginning of sentences, apostrophes in "I'm" and "I've" - it's very hard to read your posts on here.

 

[meridian2]

Erm, yes. I don't even know how you would be asking this question in the first place.

?

Because it's ambiguous. What defines a zone's 'starting point'?

 

[Clip]

Because it's ambiguous. What defines a zone's 'starting point'?

The sodding big map displayed all over town would probably define it

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf

 

[Deerfold]

Because it's ambiguous. What defines a zone's 'starting point'?

There's maps which clearly show which stations are in which zone. They're not hard to find and Thameslink display them at every one of their stations that I've visited.

 

[bb21]

Because it's ambiguous. What defines a zone's 'starting point'?

The maps which are displayed almost everywhere, at every station, on all trains and onboard announcements (especially on ex-FCC services)?

The mistake some people make is assuming that Oyster validity extends to nearby towns when it is blatantly not true. It is important to remember that it is the passenger's responsibility to ensure that they hold a valid ticket/payment method, especially so when there is comprehensive coverage of publicity on the subject.

 

[meridian2]

There's maps which clearly show which stations are in which zone. They're not hard to find and Thameslink display them at every one of their stations that I've visited.

They just show the area which each zone covers, not the 'start and end point'. These are two fundamental differences which are being obscured here.

 

[Llanigraham]

Because it's ambiguous. What defines a zone's 'starting point'?

I only go to London as a visitor, and for an occasional meeting, and even I know that there are maps in every station, in every train, in my diary, and in an App on my phone, that show this!