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Intercity East Coast

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GrimShady

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I was recently having a look through these adverts


I don't ever remember Intercity East Coast being run as a franchise in it's own right. I always assumed it went straight to GNER yet in these adverts it clearly states "East Coast providing InterCity services" complete with it's own logo

Was this some sort of shadow franchise?

Was the similar shadow franchise's for the rest of InterCity with their own logos?
 
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Helvellyn

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I don't ever remember Intercity East Coast being run as a franchise in it's own right. I always assumed it went straight to GNER yet in these adverts it clearly states "East Coast providing InterCity services" complete with it's own logo

Was this some sort of shadow franchise?

Was the similar shadow franchise's for the rest of InterCity with their own logos?
Some shadow franchises went a bit more with their own branding than others, and not just the InterCity ones.

Gatwick Express introduced a modified livery with the red/white bands replaced by a wider white band a thin burgundy band.

Regional Railways North West modified the RR livery replacing the light blue band with dark green on their repainted 156s; Regional Railways Central (Central Trains) repainted its 156s in 158 "EXPRESS" style livery.

If you visit https://logos.fandom.com/wiki/Category:InterCity you can see how most shadow franchises used variations of the corporate InterCity style. As you said, East Coast brought in their own logo 1995-96 before GNER. Great Western brought in their own style as well in 1995 (The Merlin logo).
 

GrimShady

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Some shadow franchises went a bit more with their own branding than others, and not just the InterCity ones.

Gatwick Express introduced a modified livery with the red/white bands replaced by a wider white band a thin burgundy band.

Regional Railways North West modified the RR livery replacing the light blue band with dark green on their repainted 156s; Regional Railways Central (Central Trains) repainted its 156s in 158 "EXPRESS" style livery.

If you visit https://logos.fandom.com/wiki/Category:InterCity you can see how most shadow franchises used variations of the corporate InterCity style. As you said, East Coast brought in their own logo 1995-96 before GNER. Great Western brought in their own style as well in 1995 (The Merlin logo).

Excellent that explains a lot. Thanks for the reply!

Was the Merlin logo not part of Great Western Trains which was a management buy out and not part of the shadow franchise?
 

dubscottie

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The Merlin logo was part of the shadow franchise and the MBO kept it.

Shadow franchises applying there own livery was often a result of the stock going for long planned refurbishment.

Thats what happened with the GatEx, Central & NWT 156s, and GW Hsts.

Some stock was just out-shopped in the old style like the very first refurbished Mk2 sets for XC and Anglia.
 

TUC

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Also intriguing to see the guy in first advert using a mobile phone, which I know were around by the mid-1990s but were far from in common use.
 

sprinterguy

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What surprises me most about those adverts is the sight of a mark 4 rake in Newcastle's bay platform 1: Presumably a shortened rake of carriages for filming purposes as from what I recall a 2+5 HST was a very tight squeeze in there.

Intercity liveried 47/8 as 'Thunderbird' in platform 12 dates suggests the filming date as pre-1994, at which point a Rail Express Systems 'Railnet' class 47/7 became the norm on that duty.

The East Coast "Sunrise" logo was common on promotional material and their printed media in the mid-nineties - I believe I have a timetable from 1994 that features it on the cover - though of course it never featured on the trains themselves. I suspect it was intended to recall the general design of an older LNER logo.
 
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sprinterguy

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Thats what happened with the GatEx, Central & NWT 156s, and GW Hsts.
The Great Western "Merlin" livery wasn't launched until 30th September 1996 (On a short set with power cars 43185 and 43183), over six months after the privatised Great Western franchise was launched in February 1996.
 

Gcambo

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I was recently having a look through these adverts


I don't ever remember Intercity East Coast being run as a franchise in it's own right. I always assumed it went straight to GNER yet in these adverts it clearly states "East Coast providing InterCity services" complete with it's own logo

Was this some sort of shadow franchise?

Was the similar shadow franchise's for the rest of InterCity with their own logos?
I was employed on the technical side by British Rail and then GNER who we were awarded the first privatisation franchise, Inter City was the last brand name under BR.
 

GrimShady

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I was employed on the technical side by British Rail and then GNER who we were awarded the first privatisation franchise, Inter City was the last brand name under BR.

How long did East Coast last Gcambo?

I see some interesting promotional stuff on your thread.
 

Gcambo

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I was recently having a look through these adverts


I don't ever remember Intercity East Coast being run as a franchise in it's own right. I always assumed it went straight to GNER yet in these adverts it clearly states "East Coast providing InterCity services" complete with it's own logo

Was this some sort of shadow franchise?

Was the similar shadow franchise's for the rest of InterCity with their own logos?

If I remember correctly Brian Burdsall Eastern Region GM formed a management buy out team to compete for the ECML franchise, all members of staff were to be offered shares in the new company to be known as East Coast with the sun rise logo as in attached picture, in the end Sea Containers won and Chris Garnett was appointed CEO of GNER.
 

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Gcambo

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How long did East Coast last Gcambo?

I see some interesting promotional stuff on your thread.

Sea Containers who were the owners of GNER took on the seven year franchise in 1996, in 2002 the renewed the contract for a further seven years but in 2007 they handed it back to the government because of huge losses, we all thought at the time they had overbid.
 

pdeaves

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Sea Containers who were the owners of GNER took on the seven year franchise in 1996, in 2002 the renewed the contract for a further seven years but in 2007 they handed it back to the government because of huge losses, we all thought at the time they had overbid.
No, GNER was fine. Sea Containers went down the pan and under the financial rules could no longer run any franchise.
 

Ianno87

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No, GNER was fine. Sea Containers went down the pan and under the financial rules could no longer run any franchise.

The high premium payments required from GNER in the post-2002 franchise to the DfT were a factor in the difficulties. SeaCo could no longer support the franchise due to mix of their high premiums and their own problems and DfT did not want to renogiate the terms, especially with SeaCo being in trouble already.
 

dubscottie

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The Great Western "Merlin" livery wasn't launched until 30th September 1996 (On a short set with power cars 43185 and 43183), over six months after the privatised Great Western franchise was launched in February 1996.

It wasn't launched on stock until then alright. However livery trials took place in mid/late 1994 IIRC at Phillips Marsh and was reported at the time in the railway press.

They wanted to repaint stock but were not allowed to until the franchise was actually let.

Like East Coast, ScotRail etc the Merlin logo was the logo of the shadow franchise and was in use long before the trains got the colour scheme.
 

GrimShady

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Merlin was a fantastic livery. Probably the best in privatisation next to GNER.
 

Marton

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No, GNER was fine. Sea Containers went down the pan and under the financial rules could no longer run any franchise.

There was also I have been told the problem of the DfT (or whatever it was called then) throwing in the Grand Central open access bid without allowing GNER to review its bid.

GNER might have been able to manage away from Sea Containers if the bid had been revised.
 

Clarence Yard

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There was also I have been told the problem of the DfT (or whatever it was called then) throwing in the Grand Central open access bid without allowing GNER to review its bid.

GNER might have been able to manage away from Sea Containers if the bid had been revised.

No, that's not how it went.

Grand Central put in a Track Access application to the ORR, which GNER and the DFT objected to. The ORR approved the application, under their strict criteria.

GNER were already in bother with their revenue before GC and the launch of their yield management system was a bit of a disaster as it actually suppressed their expected yield predictions, to the amusement of other operators. They were starting to get into serious problems, even before the likelihood of GC taking some of their future revenue.

When you bid for franchises, you have to take Open Access into account as you are on risk for it and you usually don't get a chance to vary your franchise revenue line if they do come in. GNER didn't take any OA into account in their bid but, like Hull Trains, The Grand Central revenue was actually not a huge amount for GNER to cope with but when you are struggling you don't want to have to struggle some more as it is/was the future profit line that takes the hit.

The ORR decision went to the High Court and the Court, after a lengthy discussion, decided in favour of GC and HT, who were also dragged into the case. Indeed, it was a historic flow analysis submission by HT that showed how much extra revenue had been generated by OA (comparing north of the Humber flows to south of the Humber flows) and how little abstraction from GNER (& others) took place, if at all, on the key HT flows. As a result of that intervention, GNER had to withdraw their abstraction argument on the first night of the hearing and their case never really recovered after that.
 

sprinterguy

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It wasn't launched on stock until then alright. However livery trials took place in mid/late 1994 IIRC at Phillips Marsh and was reported at the time in the railway press.

They wanted to repaint stock but were not allowed to until the franchise was actually let.

Like East Coast, ScotRail etc the Merlin logo was the logo of the shadow franchise and was in use long before the trains got the colour scheme.
Oh right, I've genuinely learnt something new today. :) Thanks for the explanation.
 

Sad Sprinter

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Merlin was a fantastic livery. Probably the best in privatisation next to GNER.

Don’t forget the Midland Mainline teal livery. That was wonderful.

I remember reading not too long ago that BR had planned to refresh the Intercity brand in 1996 10 years after sectorisation. Makes you wonder if BR did last how similar or different their refresh liveries would be to the post privatisation liveries that eventually came about.
 

dubscottie

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I think it would have ended up looking like the livery that Gatwick Express used.

2 x Mk3 HST coaches were refurbished and went with a grey and claret scheme.

Also one power car and at least 2 trailers had the red stripe replaced with claret but it just didn't sit right with the lower grey then in use.

It did work with the off-white however.
 

GrimShady

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I think it would have ended up looking like the livery that Gatwick Express used.

2 x Mk3 HST coaches were refurbished and went with a grey and claret scheme.

Also one power car and at least 2 trailers had the red stripe replaced with claret but it just didn't sit right with the lower grey then in use.

It did work with the off-white however.

Aware of any such pics Scottie?
 

Helvellyn

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2 x Mk3 HST coaches were refurbished and went with a grey and claret scheme.
TF 41178 (converted from TS 42011) received the new claret based scheme. The original IC70 seats received a much more padded insert for the cushion on the headrest in claret.

TCSD (Trailer Conductor Standard Disabled) 45084 (converted from TGS 44084) had the Guard's office and small van replaced by a Senior Conductor's office, a through passageway (it was marshalled adjacent to the buffet) with a payphone and luggage rack opposite. The single toilet was replaced by a universal accessible one. Some of the IC70 seats had modified armrests that folded up for ease of access. A mid-saloon luggage stack was fitted whilst some of the original luggage racks were replaced by ones with electronic reservation displays.
 

dubscottie

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Aware of any such pics Scottie?

Here is the article from RAIL 193 (Feb 3rd - 16th 1993) about the claret stripes. The stripe was darker than it appears in that article. I think it works well with the white lower at the cab end but looks wrong on the coach end.

Screenshot 2019-12-22 at 19.04.49.png

Here is the first & standard interiors of 41178 & 45084

mk4 style table.png standard saloon.png
 

Helvellyn

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Whilst the claret stripe went no further from a livery perspective than the trial application to the four HST power cars claret did become the InterCity house colour:
  • It was used as the base for new uniforms - skirts, jackets, hats and trousers.
  • With the reintroduction of cast nameplates the background was claret.
  • InterCity Summer timetables adopted claret covers (in place of the previous silver) whilst Winter timetables adopted dark blue covers (in place of the previous black).

Here is the article from RAIL 193 (Feb 3rd - 16th 1993) about the claret stripes. The stripe was darker than it appears in that article. I think it works well with the white lower at the cab end but looks wrong on the coach end.
Beat me to it. I was going to dig out the Railway Magazine article for the coaches which had a couple more pictures plus a layout plan of TCSD 45084.
 

dubscottie

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I think that had Intercity survived a bit longer the claret stripe with a white lower body could well have become the standard livery. Gatwick Express used it and the IC250 looked like it would have used it also.
 
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