InterCity in the SouthEast during the 1980s

[rf_ioliver]

Over on Reddit there is a discussion about InterCity routes https://www.reddit.com/r/trains/comments/g48fcr/1985_uk_intercity_map/ from 1985. There's also a link to Project Mapping: http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/InterCity Routes 1985.jpg

The question I have is that there seem to be direct InterCity trains from Brighton and the Kent Coast (specifically Canterbury) to London. I know of the cross-country routes, at least I used to take the class 47 hauled Intercity trains from Brighton to Reading in the early 90s and also the Gatwick Express (73 hauled). I also did find a picture of a 47 + Intercity stock at Canterbury East, but was that really a service from Dover to London or was it some charter/railtour?

I always thought at least the boat trains were NSE and not Intercity. Anyway, the Brighton-London InterCity is my main question.

thanks

Ian

 

[Domh245]

Looking at the key for that map, it's "InterCity and principal routes" - so it's just referring to the main services of the different NSE sectors (South East to Dover, South Central to Brighton, and South West to Bournemouth) - the only proper IC services in the NSE area branded as such were Gatwick Express

 

[mister-sparky]

InterCity used to run to Dover Western Docks and Ramsgate

 

[55018ballymoss]

They are interesting maps, and I think they are before sectorisation took place? So the definition of InterCity is not the same as we think of now, it is more of a case of principal express services to London with the headline time of the quickest journey to/from London from each place.

 

[Senex]

Very strongly London-orientated map, though NE-SW and Scottish services nothwards from Glasgow seem to make it. But maybe the fact that Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds and Manchester-Sheffield aren't there tell us that this is still the map that Whitehall civil servants have in mind when they think of those areas.

 

[Whistler40145]

Didn’t InterCity operate services to Eastbourne during the 1980s?

 

[paul1609]

Didn’t InterCity operate services to Eastbourne during the 1980s?

Yes it was one of the otherwise Brighton services on Summer Saturdays.

 

[bangor-toad]

The question I have is that there seem to be direct InterCity trains from Brighton and the Kent Coast (specifically Canterbury) to London. I know of the cross-country routes, at least I used to take the class 47 hauled Intercity trains from Brighton to Reading in the early 90s and also the Gatwick Express (73 hauled). I also did find a picture of a 47 + Intercity stock at Canterbury East, but was that really a service from Dover to London or was it some charter/railtour?

Hi there,
You really should have a look at this website: www.1s76.com

It's an excellent source of information about the old cross country services to Brighton. Look through the various years and there are records of the services to Eastbourne, Dover and Ramsgate too.
Enjoy!
Mr Toad

 

[Taunton]

I think in 1985 InterCity was a brand (quite longstanding, from the 1960s), not a Sector as we later understood it. You will notice Glasgow to Edinburgh and Aberdeen are on there as well, and I believe the Mk2 stock was branded as InterCity, not ScotRail. I also think I recall discussion at the time about portraying 1950s 4-CEP express stock from Kent to London (including a geographically accurate portrayal of the two main routes crossing over at Chiselhurst) as InterCity, but if not the map would have had holes in it. I don't believe this map is representing any of the through services from the Southern Region going up the West London line, discussed above.

Interesting that Waterloo to Bournemouth was included, but not that the same trains then carried on to Weymouth.

 

[paul1609]

I think in 1985 InterCity was a brand (quite longstanding, from the 1960s), not a Sector as we later understood it. You will notice Glasgow to Edinburgh and Aberdeen are on there as well, and I believe the Mk2 stock was branded as InterCity, not ScotRail. I also think I recall discussion at the time about portraying 1950s 4-CEP express stock from Kent to London (including a geographically accurate portrayal of the two main routes crossing over at Chiselhurst) as InterCity, but if not the map would have had holes in it. I don't believe this map is representing any of the through services from the Southern Region going up the West London line, discussed above.

Interesting that Waterloo to Bournemouth was included, but not that the same trains then carried on to Weymouth.

Although they were through trains to Weymouth at that time the 4 TC unit was detached at Bournemouth to provide an all stations service to Weymouth (with a class 33/1 diesel loco. The Restaurant Car was part of the 4 REP electrified units so couldn't proceed beyond Bournemouth.

 

[WesternLancer]

Over on Reddit there is a discussion about InterCity routes https://www.reddit.com/r/trains/comments/g48fcr/1985_uk_intercity_map/ from 1985. There's also a link to Project Mapping: http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/InterCity Routes 1985.jpg

The question I have is that there seem to be direct InterCity trains from Brighton and the Kent Coast (specifically Canterbury) to London. I know of the cross-country routes, at least I used to take the class 47 hauled Intercity trains from Brighton to Reading in the early 90s and also the Gatwick Express (73 hauled). I also did find a picture of a 47 + Intercity stock at Canterbury East, but was that really a service from Dover to London or was it some charter/railtour?

I always thought at least the boat trains were NSE and not Intercity. Anyway, the Brighton-London InterCity is my main question.

thanks

Ian

As others have said it was all about using a successful 'brand' - not about a certain level of service or that sort of thing - tho some might say that the level of service on a Brighton Line buffet car service with hot food options was better than some 'inter city' TOCs now...

 

[yorksrob]

I think in 1985 InterCity was a brand (quite longstanding, from the 1960s), not a Sector as we later understood it. You will notice Glasgow to Edinburgh and Aberdeen are on there as well, and I believe the Mk2 stock was branded as InterCity, not ScotRail. I also think I recall discussion at the time about portraying 1950s 4-CEP express stock from Kent to London (including a geographically accurate portrayal of the two main routes crossing over at Chiselhurst) as InterCity, but if not the map would have had holes in it. I don't believe this map is representing any of the through services from the Southern Region going up the West London line, discussed above.

Interesting that Waterloo to Bournemouth was included, but not that the same trains then carried on to Weymouth.

The CEP's had been radically updated with their refurbishment by this stage, so the 1950's ambiance was gone.

 

[32475]

I remember in 1985 (I'm pretty certain it was that year) getting the train from Manchester Piccadilly back to to college in Canterbury so I took a Manchester to Dover Western Docks Inter City train (Class 47 and Mk 2s), got off at Bromley South and changed there for the Canterbury East connection as the train went via Ashford.
As for Brighton - London Intercity, I remember in the '70s the fast trains were billed as Intercity services and shown as such on the late lamented departure board. These were usually 12 coach 4-CIG emus although I remember once getting the Intercity from Brighton to Victoria in '77 or '78 and it was composed of all blue 2HAPs or something similar with Trojan moquette which normally trundled along the coastway routes! Happy days

 

[30907]

Very strongly London-orientated map, though NE-SW and Scottish services nothwards from Glasgow seem to make it. But maybe the fact that Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds and Manchester-Sheffield aren't there tell us that this is still the map that Whitehall civil servants have in mind when they think of those areas.

I don't think Manchester-Sheffield was ever an InterCity type route, though argusbly Newcastle-Liverpool at that stage might have scraped in.

 

[hexagon789]

You will notice Glasgow to Edinburgh and Aberdeen are on there as well, and I believe the Mk2 stock was branded as InterCity, not ScotRail.

The Mk2 stock used on those routes was painted into ScotRail Sector colours in 1985/6 as with the Mk3s.

 

[rf_ioliver]

You really should have a look at this website: www.1s76.com

Thanks! Forgotten about that one - seen it before. Very interesting, I remember taking the service from Brighton to Reading then changing to the Cardiff services - took a bit longer but avoided London and the Cardiff-Brighton train (a 158) was so boring and slow. Anyway, the InterCity train was a little more interesting and comfortable than the electrics (though I always thought after the 1st gen DMUs and 150s in Wales that the 319s looked incredible...never thought they'd ever turn up in Wales...)

I found there also the service via Canterbury East, so it did exist. For some reason I always think of Canterbury West as the station which probably got me a little confused about the routing as well.

Ian

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks! Forgotten about that one - seen it before. Very interesting, I remember taking the service from Brighton to Reading then changing to the Cardiff services - took a bit longer but avoided London and the Cardiff-Brighton train (a 158) was so boring and slow. Anyway, the InterCity train was a little more interesting and comfortable than the electrics (though I always thought after the 1st gen DMUs and 150s in Wales that the 319s looked incredible...never thought they'd ever turn up in Wales...)

I found there also the service via Canterbury East, so it did exist. For some reason I always think of Canterbury West as the station which probably got me a little confused about the routing as well.

Ian

Before the Cardiff - Brightons were 158s they were 156s for a bit - but before that for many years a Class 33 and mk1 coaches. Instead of being slow they seemed v fast to me as I think one of the few coastway services that went toward Southampton with limited stops (eg Worthing, chichester, Havant) which back in the 80s when I used it regularly seemed much faster than most of the EMU alternatives.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Before the Cardiff - Brightons were 158s they were 156s for a bit - but before that for many years a Class 33 and mk1 coaches. Instead of being slow they seemed v fast to me as I think one of the few coastway services that went toward Southampton with limited stops (eg Worthing, chichester, Havant) which back in the 80s when I used it regularly seemed much faster than most of the EMU alternatives.

I did this '89/'90 ... pretty sure it was a 156, though some sources say a 155

 

[pdeaves]

Cardiff-South Coast were 155s before they were split, not 156s.

 

[WesternLancer]

I did this '89/'90 ... pretty sure it was a 156, though some sources say a 155

Sounds about right for that date, and I think a 155 may have been possible. In 85/86 I was certainly using it loco hauled (we went to Bristol on priv tickets to pick up a load of printed newspapers for our students union to save delivery costs - plenty of room in the mk 1 stock gaurds van!)

 

[WesternLancer]

Cardiff-South Coast were 155s before they were split, not 156s.

Thanks - I stand corrected! Def a serious downgrade in comfort and space from the mk1 and I recall thinking that at the time. Overcrowded to from the earliest stages.
Are they 158s these days or 165s now?

 

[Polarbear]

Cardiff-South Coast were 155s before they were split, not 156s.

Originally 155's, but those were withdrawn at short notice due to an issue with the doors flying off when on the move! Some 156's were drafted in to cover for the absence of the 155's whilst remedial work was done on them.

 

[paul1609]

Brighton to Cardiffs were both 155 and 156s before the 158s.
All the Cardiff to South Coasts were due to go directly from 155 to 158 but the first public 158 service managed to get to Brighton OK but on the first return service it demolished about 400 yards of the down platform at Shoreham By Sea. The service then went back to 156s until it could be properly cleared.
When Ive recently seen the service it has been a 166.

 

[47827]

Daily Monday to Saturday Dover trains with Intercity finished around 1992/3 although apologies I can't remember the precise date. The service at that point was a return service from Liverpool with a 47/8 to the south coast as HST sets were never cleared there.

It was summer holidays only on Saturdays briefly after that starting at and returning to Wolverhampton finally finishing at the end of August 1994 with very little fanfare despite being the final loco hauled service train to Dover and Western Docks being on the verge of its closure (1995 onward saw several years of Ramsgate workings with a mix of 47s and D9000). I was lucky enough to be on the final Dover trains that day and it was a relaxed day out on board with a Wolverhampton guard present throughout with a pilotman South of London. We were routed via the West Coast Mainline both ways (like some of the 1980s services once were) unlike the Liverpool services which had gone via Reading. Traction was standard Intercity power in the form of 47839 with 47053 borrowed from RFD sector to shunt our set at Dover. A few weeks earlier I had caught 47827 on the Dover train via Rugby and got off at Kensington Olympia to catch 47818 to Eastbourne and return.

The Eastbourne workings lasted a little longer, running again in 1995, but I think the only working I actually recall the following year was a Sunday in 1996 when the Glasgow to Brighton was diverted that day due to engineering work. I can't recall the date but had done a railtour on the Saturday to Stranraer and stayed up in Scotland for this service as it was diverted via Kilmarnock and Dumfries with 47734. 47805 took the train from Carlisle to Birmingham vice class 86 and I think 47826 worked the final jaunt to Eastbourne that night. Finances and school the next day meant I left at Birmingham International to get back north.

There were Intercity loco hauled trains to Folkestone for a time too I think well into the 1980s. Manchester featured as a destination.

Up until partway in summer 2002 there were loco hauled Liverpool to Weymouth trains via Reading and Bournemouth too. Voyagers must have done the final runs after that. After a whacky ECS Weymouth to Longsight at least 1 year XC saw sense and instead begun 1M81 from Weymouth the last few years using its usual path ex Bournemouth with the set for that working a Wolverhampton train. Those were 47s most of the time too. Services to Bournemouth and Poole saw a mix of loco hauled and hst turns of course with Poole usually being solid loco hauled turns.

 

[Cowley]

Originally 155's, but those were withdrawn at short notice due to an issue with the doors flying off when on the move! Some 156's were drafted in to cover for the absence of the 155's whilst remedial work was done on them.

Oh yes I remember those days well.
The loco hauled sets were hurriedly bought back for a few weeks after the 155 door problems but instead of the previous Eastleigh based 33/0 regulars an eclectic mix of any available 47/4 were drafted in instead. I had a few runs behind them back then and on the five coach sets (which I assume were the original ones that had been used behind the 33s) it’s fair to say that they accelerated pretty smartly...

 

[JonathanH]

Poole usually being solid loco hauled turns.

For a few timetable periods in the early 1990s there was a 'Dorset Scot' which did take a High Speed Train to Poole but as you note most of the Poole services once HSTs arrived were locomotive hauled. Later, the Dorset Scot name was moved to a service which started at Bournemouth.

The basic pattern for HSTs to the Bournemouth route was Manchester - Bournemouth - Edinburgh and vice versa. They didn't work the services that spent the night on the South Coast.

 

[47827]

For a few timetable periods in the early 1990s there was a 'Dorset Scot' which did take a High Speed Train to Poole but as you note most of the Poole services once HSTs arrived were locomotive hauled. Later, the Dorset Scot name was moved to a service which started at Bournemouth.

The basic pattern for HSTs to the Bournemouth route was Manchester - Bournemouth - Edinburgh and vice versa. They didn't work the services that spent the night on the South Coast.

That's right. The old 1E32 which used to be the 0900 Poole - York and 1O13 the 1143 York - Poole were replaced with hst operated trains in 1998 to and from Newcastle I think. The displaced hauled sets went onto a Bristol to Newcastle turn instead and a few other new turns in the North West. I can't recall where the hst used to overnight though as Bournemouth depot was traditionally just the hauled sets which then used Poole carriage sidings to get in and out.

On a few occasions I was lucky enough to have hauled sets on those hst turns quoted either because of stock shortages or changes due to route closures/issues. The last working to Dorset was as little as 24 hours prior to the end of XC hauled sets vice voyager (from Preston on a Sunday I think). Sadly I did the equivalent trip 48 hours before the end off Manchester and it ran hours late turning round at Southampton and still being very late back into Manchester.

 

[JonathanH]

That's right. The old 1E32 which used to be the 0900 Poole - York and 1O13 the 1143 York - Poole were replaced with hst operated trains in 1998 to and from Newcastle I think. The displaced hauled sets went onto a Bristol to Newcastle turn instead and a few other new turns in the North West. I can't recall where the hst used to overnight though as Bournemouth depot was traditionally just the hauled sets which then used Poole carriage sidings to get in and out

That change in 1998 was achieved by running a 0317 from Manchester to Bournemouth.

The earlier service I was referring to ran in the 1991/1992 timetable leaving Reading at 1029. It may have been that the HST was overnight at Old Oak Common?

 

[WesternLancer]

Oh yes I remember those days well.
The loco hauled sets were hurriedly bought back for a few weeks after the 155 door problems but instead of the previous Eastleigh based 33/0 regulars an eclectic mix of any available 47/4 were drafted in instead. I had a few runs behind them back then and on the five coach sets (which I assume were the original ones that had been used behind the 33s) it’s fair to say that they accelerated pretty smartly...

5 coaches on the 33 hauled trains sounds about right - which was why 2 car DMUs just seemed bonkers to me at the time.

 

[Sprinter107]

Cardiff-South Coast were 155s before they were split, not 156s.

156s covered for 155s when they were temporarily withdrawn. Brand new 156s destined for Scotland were diverted to Cardiff where they stayed til the 155s got sorted.