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Intercity Stock- Ratio of Standard to First

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by jopsuk, 28 Oct 2011.

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  1. 28 Oct 2011 #1
    jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    With help from sprinterguy and YorkshireRider. Split from the Virgin Trains extension thread.

    Roughly, this should be all "Intercity" stock in use in the UK, with the Standard class to 1st class ratio. Anything that's Standard Class only, doesn't have "end doors" or is mainly used for "local" services is not counted.

    The comparable number is the Standard:First ratio - the number of Standard Class seats per First Class

    East Coast mark 4 set (9 carriages): 404/134 = 3.01
    East Coast HST (9 carriages): 445/113 = 3.94

    XC HST (7-car): 373/70 = 5.33
    XC 220 (4-car): 174/26 = 6.69
    XC 221 (4-car): 182/26 = 7.00
    XC 221 (5-car): 252/26 = 9.69

    MML HST (8 carriages): 355/112 = 3.17
    MML 222 (7-Car): 236/106 = 2.23
    MML 222 (5-Car) 222: 192/50 = 3.84
    MML 222 (4-car): 33/148 = 4.48

    Chiltern mark 3 "Silver Trains" (5 carriages): 288/30 = 9.60

    Virgin 390 (11 car): 446/145 = 3.08 assuming same seating for new carriages as the TS
    Virgin 390 (9-car): 294/145 = 2.03
    Virgin 390 (8-car): 218/145 = 1.50 (orginal formation)
    Virgin 221 (5-car, D-Standard): 236/26 = 9.08
    Virgin 221 (5-car, D-First): 178/84 = 2.12
    Virgin 221 (10-car, one unit each): 414/110 = 3.76
    Virgin Mark 3 "Pretendolino": ? formation help ?

    NXEA Mark 3 2xFO - RFM - 6xTSO: 468/110 = 4.25 (can have four more std class giving 4.29?)
    NXEA Mark 3 2xFO - RFM - 5xTSO: 392/110 = 3.56
    NXEA Mark 3 2xFO - TSOB - 5xTSO: ?/110 = ? - capacity of TSOB?

    ATW WAG (current mrk 2/mrk3 formation): ? does this have sperate classes at all?

    GC 180: 226/42 = 5.38
    GC HST:

    HT 180: 226/42 = 5.38

    FGW HSTs: multiple formations! Help!

    SWT Class 444: 299/35 = 8.54
    SWT Class 159: 172/24 = 7.17

    Please help fill in the gaps and correct my mistakes- especially needed for the FGW HST fleet! If you've got pre-refurbishment or historical formation data, please contribute- you can see the format
     
    Last edited: 28 Oct 2011
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  3. 28 Oct 2011 #2
    fgwrich

    fgwrich Established Member

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    Can't remember how much of a change there has been in FGWs HST Fleet First Class - But i don't think theres been that much of a reduction.

    Either way, it's always been:

    Long Sets 2+8 - Coaches F (Buffet Car) G (First Class Quite Zone) & H.
    Short Sets 2+7 - Coaches G & H

    And First Class is available on the 165 / 166 Fleet - Maybe not as Intercity, but the 166s do still work up to Great Malvern & Worcester.
     
  4. 28 Oct 2011 #3
    Lampshade

    Lampshade Established Member

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    180s have 287 seats in total, not sure how many of those are first class though.
     
  5. 28 Oct 2011 #4
    jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Aren't there (at least) two variations on the 8-car formation with regards standard class capacity though?

    Also, I'm not counting 16x, 17x, Desiros (other than 444) or any Electrostars. I said why- and it's purely arbitary my reason...
     
  6. 28 Oct 2011 #5
    Yew

    Yew Established Member

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    Dont forget GC HST's
     
  7. 28 Oct 2011 #6
    jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    doh! Got numbers for them?
     
  8. 28 Oct 2011 #7
    jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    If we're counting Chiltern and SWT as having intercity services then TPE must be intercity as well.
     
  9. 28 Oct 2011 #8
    jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Seeing as I won't get any peace unless I do this, here's a list for all other stock with 1st class...:
    FGW 165:
    FGW 166:
    FGW 158: ?

    ScotRail 158*: 110/14 = 7.86
    Scotrail 170/3**: 172/7 = 24.57
    Scotrail 170/4 (express spec): 179/18 = 9.94
    Scotrail 170/4 (std only): N/A

    FCC 365: 239/24 = 9.96
    FCC 317: 269/22 = 12.23
    FCC 321: 271/28 = 9.68
    FCC 319: (multiple layouts)

    NXEA 317/5: 269/22 = 12.23 (same as FCC I think?)
    NXEA 317/6: 200/24 = 8.33
    NXEA 317/7: 172/22 = 7.81
    NXEA 317/8: (unknown)
    NXEA 321/3: 292/16 = 18.25
    NXEA 321/4: 283/16 = 17.69 (may be some 271/28 = 9.68? Ex Silverlink?)
    NXEA 360: 264/16 = 16.5
    NXEA 379: 189/20 = 9.45
    NXEA 170: (different lengths)

    XC 170: (different lengths)

    TPE 170: 116/8 = 14.5
    TPE 185: 154/15 = 10.2

    SWT 450: 240/24 = 10.00 (not /5)
    SWT 158:
    SWT 458: 250/24 = 10.42

    Southern 377: (different lengths, layouts)
    Southern 442: 322/24 = 13.42

    SouthEastern 375: (different lengths, layouts)
    SouthEastern 465:

    LM 350/1: conflicting information
    LM 350/2:
    LM 321: 271/28 = 9.68

    If you've got the numbers of seats, please format as above. If multiple formations, please format sensibly

    Can i just point out that so far the highest "Standard:First ratio" for "proper" intercity trains is the five car XC 221s? Who expected that?

    Scotrail info from 158>185

    * Post-refurb 158s may have a different layout
    ** Most of the standard class seating in one coach still has 1st class density (i.e. less than 170/4 equivalent)
     
    Last edited: 28 Oct 2011
  10. 28 Oct 2011 #9
    4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    Are the two additional cars in an Extendolino both standard class, or are they one of each?
     
  11. 28 Oct 2011 #10
    jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Confirmed as Standard with "basic" loos (not disabled)- so fair to assume 76 seats
     
  12. 28 Oct 2011 #11
    Eng274

    Eng274 Member

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    ScotRail 158*: 110/14 = 7.86
    Scotrail 170/3**: 172/7 = 24.57
    Scotrail 170/4 (express spec): 179/18 = 9.94
    Scotrail 170/4 (std only): N/A

    * Post-refurb 158s may have a different layout
    ** Most of the standard class seating in one coach still has 1st class density (i.e. less than 170/4 equivalent)
     
  13. 28 Oct 2011 #12
    rail-britain

    rail-britain Established Member

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    Surely that should be 4.07
    Nearly 25% is a bit high, I've never noticed the reduced capacity in the other half of this coach
    It is still 2+2 layout, unlike Business Class / First Class which is 1+2
     
  14. 28 Oct 2011 #13
    Bastiaan

    Bastiaan Member

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    You're reading it the wrong way. It's not 24.57%, but 1 first class seat on every 24.57 standard class seats.
     
  15. 28 Oct 2011 #14
    Eng274

    Eng274 Member

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    The legroom in the 2+2 part of the dual-class coach is very generous IIRC. One showed up on my morning commute from Edinburgh - Queen St recently, and other regular commuters noticed the legroom difference! The /3s have a 7/41 seat split, whereas the /4s have 9/47 seat split. This coach also accommodates the disabled-friendly toilet and wheelchair space, hence why the seating overall is low for both sub-classes
     
  16. 28 Oct 2011 #15
    tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Great stuff - glad you've set this thread up - I think that those were sensible definitions too
     
  17. 28 Oct 2011 #16
    jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    I'm not sure why the TPE units have a different lengths note next to them, the 185s are all 3 car and the 170s are all 2 car. While they operate in multiple so do other units listed.

    Anyway, the TPE seating configurations are:
    170: 116/8 = 14.5
    185: 154/15 = 10.2
     
  18. 28 Oct 2011 #17
    jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Cheers- got carried away with putting down "Different lengths". rail-britain, I've clarified what the ratios are, they're not %s
    Still after, for the first post:
    "Pretendolino"
    WAG Express
    GC HST
    NXEA Mrk 3 TSOB
    FGW HSTs
     
    Last edited: 28 Oct 2011
  19. 5 Nov 2011 #18
    jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    A "bump" for this- any help?
     
  20. 5 Nov 2011 #19
    sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    Well, as a bit of "fun" the currently proposed seating capacities for the IEP trains, bearing in mind that the order may be subject to change again are proposed as follows:
    IEP 8-car: 106 first class, 422 standard class
    IEP 5-car: 59 first class, 250 standard class

    I've also discovered that I have previously noted down the capacity of a FGW 8-car low density HST set as being 113 first class and 387 standard class, but I might do a recount just to make sure.

    As for the WAG Express, if I remember correctly it is formed RFM - TSO - TSO - BSO, so has 18 first class seats and 148 standard class.

    A GC 2+5 HST formation would, by rights, have 48 first class seats and 221 standard class seats, but they have so many different formations running around at various times, with declassified FOs acting as standard class accomodation and 2+4, 2+5 and 2+6 variants, that it's a bit academic really.
     
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