Interior handles, what was BR policy about them?

[30907]

The VEP's were a lot more recent than those.

Never thought of those as "mainline" though they got misused as such

 

[yorksrob]

Never thought of those as "mainline" though they got misused as such

To be fair, they were built for the main line (albeit the stoppers).

 

[Taunton]

The interior door latch (I think of it as such rather than a 'handle', as you couldn't get your hand on it) on multiple units came I think from a Southern Railway design. I could never manage it until teenage years, it needed a bit of skill and strength, with both thumbs together pushing it, and the next pair of fingers from each hand braced over the end of the mechanism. There must have been a strong spring inside. Few used them.

The only interior handle I recall seeing (and being surprised) was on a new air-con Mk2d on the ECML, first ever encountered. They only lasted a very short while, during which at least one, maybe more, child fiddled with it and fell out, and they were rapidly removed. It seems surprising that the designer could have envisaged any other outcome ...

 

[Dr_Paul]

I could never open the doors using the latches as s child. As an adult, I found using the thumb to squeeze the latch works well, fingers less so.

They did have a strong spring on them; I probably couldn't open them when I was little, but I can't recall clearly. I would use my thumb on the latch, but more often opened the window and used the outside handle. I remember a lad from abroad who presumably had not been on a Southern Region EMU before, wishing to alight at New Malden, pointing to the latch and asking 'How?' in a puzzled voice. I showed him how it worked; it wouldn't have been obvious to someone encountering one for the first time.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The interior door latch (I think of it as such rather than a 'handle', as you couldn't get your hand on it) on multiple units came I think from a Southern Railway design. I could never manage it until teenage years, it needed a bit of skill and strength, with both thumbs together pushing it, and the next pair of fingers from each hand braced over the end of the mechanism. There must have been a strong spring inside. Few used them.

The only interior handle I recall seeing (and being surprised) was on a new air-con Mk2d on the ECML, first ever encountered. They only lasted a very short while, during which at least one, maybe more, child fiddled with it and fell out, and they were rapidly removed. It seems surprising that the designer could have envisaged any other outcome ...

What's curious about all the 'fiddle with the handle and the door opened' accidents referred to is that many people who wanted to open a door at a station released the handle too soon and the door then stopped on the first catch. You've also reminded me - I do remember interior handles on LH Mk2 & H.S.T. stock but had forgotten the large chrome handle with the pivot on one side and only recall them after your comment. Really easy to use.

When 'wrap-round doors' (the wider ones for wheelchair access) were introduced I was initially confused because the doors that opened the 'wrong' way (door hinge on the right) were a complete mirror image of the normal one and had the handle rotating in the opposite direction to open. If you tried to turn it the usual and logical way (anti-clockwise) it didn't budge.

As an aside, I found the easy way to open the sliding catch sort was to rest the heel of my hand on its frame and use fingers onnthe catch.

 

[Rescars]

The interior door latch (I think of it as such rather than a 'handle', as you couldn't get your hand on it) on multiple units came I think from a Southern Railway design.

Interesting that it was a SR design. Does anyone know when internal catches were first fitted? Did any other companies use them?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Interesting that it was a SR design. Does anyone know when internal catches were first fitted? Did any other companies use them?

Certainly the G.W.R. stock did not have interior handles. Not only that, but in their 'We're Swindon we're special' design you turned the exterior handle to open the lock and a spring retained it in that vertical position so, after boarding, you had to drop the window and turn the handle back to the horizontal position to keep it shut.
L.M.S. coaches did not have interior handles either but their complication was that the droplight was restrained by a leather strap with holes in - but this did not fully close the window. To do so, you raised the window fully by the strap and then pushed it away from you so that it rested on a sprung ledge. To lower it, you pulled the strap horizontally to pull it off the ledge. All part of everyday travel, but it seems to confuse even guards and TTIs on heritage railways when they encounter one.,

 

[yorksrob]

They did have a strong spring on them; I probably couldn't open them when I was little, but I can't recall clearly. I would use my thumb on the latch, but more often opened the window and used the outside handle. I remember a lad from abroad who presumably had not been on a Southern Region EMU before, wishing to alight at New Malden, pointing to the latch and asking 'How?' in a puzzled voice. I showed him how it worked; it wouldn't have been obvious to someone encountering one for the first time.

I grew up with them. The internal latches were very stiff. If the option to push the droplight down and open from the outside was there, I'd take it.

Of course, some droplights were limited in how far they would go.

 

[Greybeard33]

My memories of the sliding latches are mainly from old non-corridor LHCS, on suburban services out of Kings Cross in the early 1970s. I do not recall major problems operating them - it was just a knack you acquired. Occasionally there would be an extra stiff one that forced you to open the droplight.

 

[racyrich]

On my local LTS line of course the 302s and 308s and then the 310s and 312s had the dreaded sliding latch mechanisms.
Operating them was very hit and miss. If you were sat next to the door then you had a fair chance of getting the door open using them, occasionally one-handed, more often two.
But sitting next to the door was far from guaranteed, or even preferable in winter, when the wind whistled in through the ½ inch gaps around the door and you'd sit with your overcoat over your knees to keep warm. So then you'd sit in an aisle seat. But of course this made opening the door much more hit-and-miss, using both hands being far trickier, and you'd have to be ready to leap into Plan B - hope the window opened and use the outside handle. If Plan B failed Plan C was to move very rapidly to the next bay and hope that door opened first time!
Remember that this was in the days of 20-30 second stops so there was no room for error. You'd try the door as soon as the train entered the platform and hold it closed until it was slow enough to jump out. If you were next to the door you would open it for other passengers at earlier stops, which gave you confidence for your own stop.
Amazing just how tactical commuting was! And yet I still miss the slammers compared to the 357s and the even less comfortable 387s and 720s.

 

[Rescars]

Certainly the G.W.R. stock did not have interior handles. Not only that, but in their 'We're Swindon we're special' design you turned the exterior handle to open the lock and a spring retained it in that vertical position so, after boarding, you had to drop the window and turn the handle back to the horizontal position to keep it shut.
L.M.S. coaches did not have interior handles either but their complication was that the droplight was restrained by a leather strap with holes in - but this did not fully close the window. To do so, you raised the window fully by the strap and then pushed it away from you so that it rested on a sprung ledge. To lower it, you pulled the strap horizontally to pull it off the ledge. All part of everyday travel, but it seems to confuse even guards and TTIs on heritage railways when they encounter one.,

Thank you. An aged relative showed me this knack in operating window straps to me on heritage line visit a long while ago. "Just like the windows on the train I took to school!" we were told. He was recalling his commutes on LBSC pre-electrification steam stock.

Also, does anyone know if there were internal handles on Pullman Car doors, which opened inwards into the vestibules?

 

[edwin_m]

When 'wrap-round doors' (the wider ones for wheelchair access) were introduced I was initially confused because the doors that opened the 'wrong' way (door hinge on the right) were a complete mirror image of the normal one and had the handle rotating in the opposite direction to open. If you tried to turn it the usual and logical way (anti-clockwise) it didn't budge.

The late Mk2 wraparound doors had the T-shaped handle pivoting in the centre like earlier stock, but possibly for that reason the Mk3s had something more like a conventional door handle with the pivot at one end. Hence you just pushed it down whether the door was left- or right-handed. But any type of wraparound door was much heavier than the earlier ones and could be a real struggle to open from inside on canted track.

 

[Irascible]

Those internal latches were hopeless, I also just stuck my arm out & turned the outside handle. Having to stick your hand outside the door ( internal latch or no ) to open it does seem rather bizarre looking back on it.

 

[mike57]

My memory of growing up in London in the 60s is that Suburban non corridor stock had internal handles, but corridor 'main line' stock didn't. No doubt there were exceptions.

Open window and open door from the outside, I just do it without thinking, but recenctly when HSTs were still passing through York daily its surprising how many people would stand at the door and wait for it open. Several times I had to say to people "It a manual door", they would look at me like I had two heads, and I would demonstrate... One young Chinese couple in their early 20s who spoke good English said "How old are these trains" I replied over 40 years old, and they looked amazed.

 

[WesternLancer]

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I grew up on the southern region and the EMU door handle leavers inside were certainly stiff - I expect when I was very young I would certainly not have been able to open them, but as a larger child it was possible to do although I seem to recall you needed to get the technique right. If your fingers slipped certainly a high risk of breaking your finger nails for example.