Intermodal freights on Midland/Chiltern Mainline

[Prestige15]

Just curious, Has there ever been a intermodal freight trains on Chiltern mainline (via High Wycombe) and on MML South of Leicester?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Just curious, Has there ever been a intermodal freight trains on Chiltern mainline (via High Wycombe) and on MML South of Leicester?

The seminal London-Glasgow container service, Condor, ran on the MML. The concept was later applied to the 'liner' trains

 

[Prestige15]

I see, I do wondered why i never seen container tains on either of those lines.

 

[Aictos]

I've not seen any intermodal trains on the Midland Mainline but daily aggregate trains yes daily!

 

[waverley47]

I see, I do wondered why i never seen container tains on either of those lines.

It's a question of geography.

Chiltern line first;

It doesn't really go anywhere useful. There aren't the same connections at the south end as there are from the ECML (spur to harringay and connections into East Anglia at Peterborough) or the WCML (connections to Gospel Oak and Camden and thence to the Haven ports or down the Thames). All the other main lines are joined up to a certain extent at the London end by branch lines and spurs, meaning any freight train can take a trip around London and go somewhere else. The builders of the Chiltern line were late to London, and it's a bit too self contained for long distance freight yo really work.

Additionally, all the other main lines have large depots or yards along their length. Think Wembley yard for aggregates and container traffic, or Peterborough, Hoo Junction, Acton ect. This means that it's easy to shove a freight train out of the way, to change drivers, wait on paths. Also these terminals attract a lot of freight themselves.

The Chiltern line, for almost the entire length between Banbury and London has none of this. There are a few exceptions (the refuse siding that I can never remember the name of for one) but what this means is that there isn't really anywhere freight wants to go. There isn't really any traffic draw, and you can't send it down the Chiltern and off on a spur to connect anywhere else. It's very self contained.

Furthermore, the Chiltern line is two tracks, and most other main lines are mostly four tracks for a good distance out of London. Four tracking gives you flexibility of more trains, but also balances out fast and stopping trains more. The Chiltern line doesn't really have the capacity for many freights, even if it was a major traffic draw.

Secondly, the MML. This line suffers less so, and has a lot of freight, but most of that freight is infrastructure based; think cement, aggregates, sand ect. There aren't any container terminals along the line, and even though you could in theory send them off on a trip around London (the Dudding hill line or the chord at Willesden) freight companies have found it easier to use the WCML as it's faster and goes to more places.

Additionally, the MML is very full with Thameslink trains south of Bedford, and you'd struggle to find paths for much more than there is. It could be done, but once you've done that, you run into problems at Leicester further up.


It's mostly just chance, but the way traffic flows have grown up, neither the Chiltern nor MML are very attractive to intermodal. Obviously it may change in the future, but these lines are very busy as is, and it's easier to just use the paths that are already there, than to go looking for some paths elsewhere.

 

[Prestige15]

Makes alot of sense, Thanks for that.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The Chiltern route does have connections to the Great Western Main Line via Greenford, but it would be a circuitous route from eg the Midlands to Southampton, compared with the direct route via Didcot, or from Midlands to the east coast ports compared with the WCML or the route via Ely. It could give a more direct route to Actob yard, but that handles bulk traffic, not intermodal.

 

[Callmo]

As others have have mentioned, both route don’t go anywhere helpful for the intermodal freight, also on the MML I was under the impression there was clearance issues for the larger boxes. (According to the train lists produced for our trains at work)

 

[Mollman]

Once EWR phase 1 opens there is a possibility that Southampton - Yorkshire / NE intermodals will run via EWR from Oxford to Bedford then up the MML (possibly via Corby).

 

[The Planner]

Chiltern has a low gauge clearance too, no big boxes down there.

 

[Eskimo]

Once EWR phase 1 opens there is a possibility that Southampton - Yorkshire / NE intermodals will run via EWR from Oxford to Bedford then up the MML (possibly via Corby).

Oxford-Bedford-Corby-Peterborough? Is there a north chord onto the ECML?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The declared intent is to upgrade Felixstowe-Ipswich-Peterborough-Syston-Wigston-Nuneaton for intermodals which would put extra freight though Leicester.
There is also a Syston-Castle Donington-Uttoxeter-Stoke-Crewe upgrade option which would put more intermodals on the northern MML and North Staffs routes.
But it's a lot of upgrade work and isn't funded yet.
There's no northern chord onto the ECML, nor an easterly one towards Peterborough at Manton, you'd have to go via Doncaster
Southampton-Oxford-Bletchley-WCML seems very likely to be useful.

 

[Bald Rick]

Most of the MML south of Leicester (well, Wigston) is not gauge cleared for larger (9’ or above) containers; indeed from Kettering to Wigston, and on the branches off the MML in north London, it’s not even gauge cleared for the old standard 8’6” containers. Something that proposers of intermodal terminals on the line south of Bedford seem to conveniently ignore.

 

[Aictos]

Oxford-Bedford-Corby-Peterborough? Is there a north chord onto the ECML?

No, there isn't a chord at Helpston Junction to permit traffic to head north from Stamford as you can only go North to Stamford or South to Peterborough there.

Equally Manton Junction only allows traffic to head to/from Leicester so any potential traffic wishing to do that route above would have to go via Leicester to gain the route via Stamford then it would have to head to Peterborough yard for the loco to run around to head north on the ECML.

Not going to happen because of the time the journey will take but more because of the infrastructure reasons that @Bald Rick has explained.

 

[Mollman]

Oxford-Bedford-Corby-Peterborough? Is there a north chord onto the ECML?

No Corby - Melton - Loughborough as Kettering - Leicester is only double track so capacity will be limited.

 

[Prestige15]

Most of the MML south of Leicester (well, Wigston) is not gauge cleared for larger (9’ or above) containers; indeed from Kettering to Wigston, and on the branches off the MML in north London, it’s not even gauge cleared for the old standard 8’6” containers. Something that proposers of intermodal terminals on the line south of Bedford seem to conveniently ignore.

Could possibly work if they were on these 'lowliners' or am i missing the point?

 

[Bald Rick]

Could possibly work if they were on these 'lowliners' or am i missing the point?
View attachment 98821

Partly missing the point. The low liners provide some extra clearance - but not enough for parts of the MML. If they gave enough clearance they would be running on the MML now!

 

[bnsf734]

There was an intermodal service running on the MML from the early 1970s until 1984.

This was the "Fletliner" which carried bricks from Stewartby in Bedfordshire to Manchester. It ran daily via Bedford, Wigston curve and Nuneaton to the WCML where it headed north to Manchester or Liverpool.

It used standard freightliner flats in 5 car sets and was normally powered by a pair of class 25s getting a good run out!! I used to see it at Nuneaton around 4pm and the 25s were being worked hard, pulling 3 or 4 sets full of bricks.

The bricks were loaded onto special flat containers loaded onto the freightliner flats by overhead crane which is still used for receiving rubbish for filling the clay pits. The flats were unloaded again by overhead crane onto trucks for final delivery. The trucks had a gantry crane to delivery the bricks "untouched by hand". It lasted a few years until about 1984 before the rail service was finished and the bricks shipped entirely by road, this was after London Brick was taken over by Hanson about 1984.

There was also a service to London Kings Cross/St Pancras which ran via Bletchley.

A Google search for Fletliner will bring up a few images of the service and class 25s working hard, but here is a link to Flickr with a pair of Cricklewood 25s being hammered through Rugeley.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_davis_photos/27912214130

 

[richieb1971]

I did see one freightliner run on the MML on a Sunday once (in a video) about 5 years ago. The boxes were all yellowish and the size of a bin liner box rather than the larger sized. This was north of Bedford somewhere near Wellingborough.

I also saw a train with zero boxes on it ahead of a chartered Steam service one Saturday morning.

As for trains using the MML to get to Yorkshire, isn't there already services on the weekend that go from London St Pancras to York? Therefore there must be a path.

 

[zwk500]

I also saw a train with zero boxes on it ahead of a chartered Steam service one Saturday morning.

Not unknown around the country generally, although Freight operators do tend to try and avoid it.

As for trains using the MML to get to Yorkshire, isn't there already services on the weekend that go from London St Pancras to York? Therefore there must be a path.

The St Pancras train runs via Sheffield, the freight would be able to reach Doncaster or York via Barrow Hill BUT I'm fairly sure there's not Gauge clearance for containers via the route the Passenger train follows via Pontefract.

 

[CW2]

During the West Coast Route Modernisation there were some weekend blocks at Rugby and south thereof. Gauge clearance for SB1C international intermodal traffic was granted on a temporary basis for those weekends, so trains from Trafford Park, Hams Hall and Lawley Street to Dollands Moor did run via the Chilterns, then via West Ealing and Acton Main Line to Willesden West London Junction, then onwards to the Southern.

 

[Bald Rick]

I did see one freightliner run on the MML on a Sunday once (in a video) about 5 years ago. The boxes were all yellowish and the size of a bin liner box rather than the larger sized. This was north of Bedford somewhere near Wellingborough.

They would have been bin liner boxes! Much smaller than normal containers

 

[Rob F]

Of course, Nottingham used to have a FreightLiner terminal near Beeston. What routes did the traffic to and from that take?

Rob

 

[59CosG95]

Oxford-Bedford-Corby-Peterborough? Is there a north chord onto the ECML?

In the unlikely event that any N-S freight goes via EWR, you'd need to wait for whichever phase it is that connects Bedford to Cambridge, running Oxford-Bedford-Cambridge-March-Peterborough. I don't know whether the WAML north of Cambridge (or indeed any of the WAML) is cleared for W12 (or containers at all), but I wouldn't count on EWR in any capacity being used for freight without more gauge clearance work elsewhere.
(You could in theory run northwards onto the ECML in the St Neots/Tempsford area, assuming a connection from the eastbound EWR to the northbound ECML is built, but that doesn't seem to have been catered for in EWR's plans. Besides, capacity for freight on the ECML south of Peterborough, particularly north of Huntingdon, is limited.)

 

[zwk500]

In the unlikely event that any N-S freight goes via EWR, you'd need to wait for whichever phase it is that connects Bedford to Cambridge, running Oxford-Bedford-Cambridge-March-Peterborough.

Southampton-Daventry moving to EWR is quite feasible, not sure how big a flow that is. Possibly some of the overnight Southampton-West Mids and Trafford Park trains as well.

I don't know whether the WAML north of Cambridge (or indeed any of the WAML) is cleared for W12 (or containers at all), but I wouldn't count on EWR in any capacity being used for freight without more gauge clearance work elsewhere.

W8 only between Bishops Stortford and Ely Dock Jn, W10 through Ely and onto Peterborough.

(You could in theory run northwards onto the ECML in the St Neots/Tempsford area, assuming a connection from the eastbound EWR to the northbound ECML is built, but that doesn't seem to have been catered for in EWR's plans. Besides, capacity for freight on the ECML south of Peterborough, particularly north of Huntingdon, is limited.)

Putting 4 tracks between Peterborough and Huntingdon doesn't seem to be the most difficult thing in the world. Probably wouldn't be worth it though, given the very limited flows it'd help.

 

[Bald Rick]

Putting 4 tracks between Peterborough and Huntingdon doesn't seem to be the most difficult thing in the world. Probably wouldn't be worth it though, given the very limited flows it'd help.

It would certainly help the ECML timetable geenrally though. Just about the biggest constraint south of Donny.

 

[zwk500]

It would certainly help the ECML timetle geenrally though. Just about the biggest constraint south of Donny.

That'd be a very different business case. I'm guessing there is a reason it hasn't been done?

 

[Bald Rick]

That'd be a very different business case. I'm guessing there is a reason it hasn't been done?

Someone decided it wasn’t needed. When I find out who that was, I shall be unkind.

 

[MarkWi72]

There was an intermodal service running on the MML from the early 1970s until 1984.

This was the "Fletliner" which carried bricks from Stewartby in Bedfordshire to Manchester. It ran daily via Bedford, Wigston curve and Nuneaton to the WCML where it headed north to Manchester or Liverpool.

It used standard freightliner flats in 5 car sets and was normally powered by a pair of class 25s getting a good run out!! I used to see it at Nuneaton around 4pm and the 25s were being worked hard, pulling 3 or 4 sets full of bricks.

The bricks were loaded onto special flat containers loaded onto the freightliner flats by overhead crane which is still used for receiving rubbish for filling the clay pits. The flats were unloaded again by overhead crane onto trucks for final delivery. The trucks had a gantry crane to delivery the bricks "untouched by hand". It lasted a few years until about 1984 before the rail service was finished and the bricks shipped entirely by road, this was after London Brick was taken over by Hanson about 1984.

There was also a service to London Kings Cross/St Pancras which ran via Bletchley.

A Google search for Fletliner will bring up a few images of the service and class 25s working hard, but here is a link to Flickr with a pair of Cricklewood 25s being hammered through Rugeley.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_davis_photos/27912214130

I remember that Brickliner train. Sometimes two 25s, although I did see a single 25 on it at Stafford once. It was never on time.