Internal V external job applicants

[C J Snarzell]

Afternoon

I've recently been through the recruitment process for a office role with a TOC and I actually made it through to the interview stage but sadly I received the dreaded e-mail late last week to say I had been unsuccessful which was of course a blow to say the least.

I'd rather not reveal the details of the job or the TOC I applied to on here as I'm conscious that these sites can be monitored by senior TOC people. I had to do a on-line test consisting of four separate exercises that took me about 2-3 hours to complete. There was no pass or fail with this test and having completed the test online earlier this month I attended the interview a week later.

Without blowing my own trumpet I thought my interview went quite well and I was direct and straight to the point with my answers.

I've since had time to reflect and had a couple of conversations with a friend and another with a family member. Both have raised the issue of internal applicants for many TOC jobs and the fact that many outsiders can have a uphill struggle trying to get a foot in the door.

Certainly, internal people will have the edge over outsiders but I wanted to raise this point to see what other people think and see if they have any similar experiences.

If anyone wants to message me privately by all means just to share any advice or views on this subject.

C J

 

[Aivilo]

Not mentioning the TOC is irrelevant as you have do many times over and it also appears your using your own name as a user ID. Covers blown.

The railway is a hard place to join nowadays as every man and there dog want on. No preference is given to internal applicant as in many cases the vacancies go to us first and the external afterwards.

Keep at it, work on your competencies and good luck

 

[C J Snarzell]

I've applied for a few jobs outside the railway industry and I had an interview in June for a non Rail job and sadly I didn't get that job either!!!

I think it's definitely an employers market these days but I know the non railway job I had the interview for went to someone already working for that company which I found out about a fortnight later.

I've been working on interview techniques with a couple of people and I reckon if you get to the interview stage you've done well in the current employment climate.

The purpose of this forum was to just test the water on this subject.

 

[ComUtoR]

Take a break from the applications. Sit back and reassess the whole entire situation. You have been knocked back quite a few times and with tow TOCs (that I'm aware of) I'm not saying give up, just take a break for a bit.

Getting knocked back can take its toll on people and we often start to see things that aren't there. The tinfoil hat comes out and we blame everyone else but ourselves. As you have been told before, and for everyone reading this, the railway recruitment is a hard slog and you often feel like your hitting a wall and the process is unfair or rigged.

Interview after interview, application after application, doesn't help. You can get bogged down quickly and another interview starts becoming robotic and rehearsed. This becomes detrimental to your interview. Taking a break can help you refocus and help you get out of that cycle of disappointment.

After you get refreshed, I'd hit the applications again.

 

[kevconnor]

It can be sole destroying applying for role. Spending hours or days crafting what you believe is your best possible application and on merits a strong contender for the role only to have a faceless/nameless person tell you your unsuccessful.

The natural reaction is to haul up the drawbridge, take refuge in the bunker and man the barricades against any nay sayers. But this time can be the most important part of the process in achieving future success. It was Einstein who said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing wrong twice but expecting a different result the second time.

If you have applied for more than one role and not been successful you need to use this time to seek feedback and review. the best way to do this may to take the approach of a red team review. the basic principle of a red team review is to adopt the critical/skeptical external viewpoint of the recruitment manager, not merely your own viewpoint. If you can have someone else do this for you then all the better.

I'd agree with the suggestion of taking a short break, you have had a bad experience you need to now reflect and learn from it so that next time you can try out what you have learnt.

 

[Davieez]

I’ve been going through the process of trying to get on the railway. I don’t come from a railway background, I manage a public house so have customer service and management experience. I only started applying this year and to date I’ve been rejected for two train driver jobs. I still have some conductor applications in the pipeline which are still in process and waiting to hear from. What I have learned from the process so far is that you have to tailor your cv to the job specification. My first application wasn’t very good and when I got rejected I went over everything with a fine tooth comb and tried to better match all of my skills to the job. Now I’m very happy with my CV and have tailored each CV to the skill set required for each job I’ve applied for.

As it is my ultimate goal to become a train driver I have been thinking about the best route to take to achieve this goal. I applied for Metrolink to become a tram driver but I was rejected. I have also applied to Stagecoach to become a bus driver which I have an interview for in the coming weeks. This appeals to me because I think it will give me invaluable experience in driving a passenger carrying vehicle. This I think would stand me in good stead for any future applications to work in the rail industry as they are both fairly similar with transferable skill sets.

It’s difficult because reading on here I see people working in totally unrelated jobs getting jobs as train drivers. Which makes you think how did they manage to get that job. Ultimately I think a lot of it is down to luck because if there are only a small number of jobs they probably have to reject so many applications which might have been more than worthy of an interview but because of the sheer numbers of applicants they had to reject some perfectly good ones. That’s what I find frustrating because you just don’t know what you could have done differently because they don’t give feedback.

I am just going to keep plugging away and hopefully something will come up soon. I understand your frustration as a career in the railway is something I very much wish to attain. What I would say to you is maybe you should consider other options to make you more employable to the TOC’s you’re applying for.

 

[OneLowban]

I came in off the street as they say and didn’t find any problems with regards to being external.

I do however believe that my previous jobs being a Bus Controller and Bus Driver gave me experiences that meant I was able to answer the application form and DMI questions well and demonstrate a lot of transferable skills and got a sense of good feedback within the interview itself.

As I’ve said before, don’t give up. However maybe it is time to give yourself a little break, take a breath, relax a bit and then come back and give it another go.

Also, did you decide to apply for any driver positions at all?

As it is my ultimate goal to become a train driver I have been thinking about the best route to take to achieve this goal. I applied for Metrolink to become a tram driver but I was rejected. I have also applied to Stagecoach to become a bus driver which I have an interview for in the coming weeks. This appeals to me because I think it will give me invaluable experience in driving a passenger carrying vehicle. This I think would stand me in good stead for any future applications to work in the rail industry as they are both fairly similar with transferable skill sets.

Didn’t see this post until I wrote mine but in my opinion this would be a great step in the meantime, from personal experience. Best of luck.

 

[Red1980]

Sorry To see what you're going through! I've experienced both sides of the spectrum from getting my first job on the railway as a guard first time of asking off the street to taking 7 years of none stop applying for drivers jobs and getting rejection after rejection from all over the country. What I experienced and what I say to potential applicants looking for advice is unfortunately there's no consistency within the process and it is genuinely a process that will take you through what feels like a hundred different emotions.

After 7 years of applying I eventually got there and arguably with the worst application (in my opinion) of the lot ( consistency) . I kind of agree with the other guys on here in saying take a step back but on the same token that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep on working to put right what's held you back slightly, one thing I've learned is that perseverance is key.

My old instructor said "you wouldn't take a car that's failed it's MOT back without fixing the fault first would you?" And he has a great point. Like someone said earlier it's definitely an employer market but let's hope it stays that way eh.....for as long as they're picking and choosing there's jobs available for us to have and decent ones at that.

Because of the consistency issue it's hard to gauge how easy or difficult it is to get on as an internal or external applicant as everyone's experience that they'll share with you will be extremely different from the next person.

I wish you the very best of luck.......one thing I will say is with every knock back comes a lot of experience and will certainly give you an edge next time over someone walking into it for the first time for the simple reason you'll know what to expect and you'll have put right what went wrong last time. Yes your confidence takes a hit at the time of rejection but you watch it soar with each new interview! Good luck.

 

[oz220]

Firstly to try and answer your question about internal/external applicants. I would think that if the job is advertised externally then the same criteria would apply to all candidates and everyone have an equal chance.

I do feel your pain however, although my only advise would be don't give up. I was very very fortunate to get accepted as a driver after also applying for jobs earning £12 per hour. To my surprise, I didn't even get offered to interview for the other jobs but was successful as a driver and became a qualified driver last year.

So cross your fingers, review your c.v making sure it's relevant to the role you're applying for. Then just prepare, prepare and prepare when you are invited back for another interview.

 

[train_lover]

My experience with my current TOC is that being internal is a massive set back. With a typical drivers course having around 10 trainees on it and only 1 being internal it gives you an idea of how difficult it is.

 

[ChrisRS]

There's no conspiracy here that an internal candidate would get a job over yourself. It's simply based on interview technique and the ability to sell yourself.

I would look at the STAR technique and apply real world examples, how much of an impact you had on the situation.

Write them down if it helps, that's worked for me. Ask for feedback from the interviews and see what areas you can improve on.

 

[Rockhopper]

I did hear from a fairly reliable source that I job I was interested in (and selected for interview) had already been promised to an internal candidate. I have no way of knowing how true that was or if the guy was just trying to put me off so his mate got the job!

 

[winks]

The railway is a hard place to join nowadays as every man and there dog want on. No preference is given to internal applicant as in many cases the vacancies go to us first and the external afterwards.

Keep at it, work on your competencies and good luck

Avilo not sure that’s true. I am an outsider and went for job interview last week and when I signed in reception there were 3 entries above me for internal candidates .....the internal jobs are not “offered first” to internals it’s all bundled in.

 

[Red1980]

Avilo not sure that’s true. I am an outsider and went for job interview last week and when I signed in reception there were 3 entries above me for internal candidates .....the internal jobs are not “offered first” to internals it’s all bundled in.

I'm sorry and I apologise if this is a daft question.....but what does other people signing in before you prove?

 

[winks]

It showed they were internal candidates working for the TOC attending the same interview

 

[Red1980]

It showed they were internal candidates working for the TOC attending the same interview

Yes? And? That doesn't mean they're getting any form of preference as you made out. That just means interviews/assessment was all on the same day. I had my external guards assessments the same time as loads of internals sat there in uniform...... I got a job.

I think you're reading far too much into that.

 

[winks]

Maybe who knows. I felt the interview went well and would be happy to apply again as I would like to join the railway

 

[Red1980]

Maybe who knows. I felt the interview went well and would be happy to apply again as I would like to join the railway

I don't blame you. all i will say Is try not to get sucked In by those sorts of conspiracy theories. If you're good enough and work hard enough you'll get there. There's enough toc's out there these days doing Internal only advertisements so there;s no need for them to give preferential treatment.

best of luck pal.

 

[winks]

the Email from HR says please allow 6 months before re-applying, does this mean the role I applied for or across the board I.e no job for 6 months and what is the reason ? Intrigued

 

[Lmc1976]

Certainly, internal people will have the edge over outsiders but I wanted to raise this point to see what other people think and see if they have any similar experiences.

C J

I recently attended an assessment day with 6 people of which 4 were internal. 3 were selected for interview that day (including me) of which only one of them were internal and I have since been offered a job. That’s my experience, doesn’t seem tilted towards internal candidates to me!

 

[C J Snarzell]

The TOC I applied to also states I cannot reapply for six months from my interview date for ANY job they advertise. I believe this is standard procedure for unsuccessful candidates who get to the interview stage despite the job being office based and not a driver or conductor role. It kind of feels like having the wind taken out of your sails but I suppose the recruitment procedure has to lay some ground rules just to exercise some fairness to future candidates.

I applied to another TOC with the Arriva group in April as a trainee conductor but dipped the paper sift and was told I cannot reapply for the conductor role with them for six months too. I then applied for an office based role with the same TOC - again I dipped the application at the paper sift but WAS NOT told I couldn't reapply for other jobs as long as they weren't for a conductor of course!

The non operational roles are quite flexible in this respect and I would assume you can apply for multiple vacancies but the goal posts do get moved if you reach the final stage of the application process for a specific job. If you do dip the interview you are likely to be given a six month exclusion 'cooling off' period depending on the TOC. If for example you dip an application for a customer service assistant before the interview stage then there is nothing to stop you reapplying straight away to the same TOC for another job.

Speaking for myself, the TOC I had the interview with is part of the Abeillo/Serco group so I'm assuming there's nothing to stop me from applying to sister TOCs in the next few months.

I do apologise for seeming like I have waffled on a bit but I'd just like to emphasise there is likely to be a six month block for candidates who are unsuccessful at an interview.

 

[Stigy]

the Email from HR says please allow 6 months before re-applying, does this mean the role I applied for or across the board I.e no job for 6 months and what is the reason ? Intrigued

Usually it’s 6-months for the same role.

 

[winks]

Great thanks. Will keep an eye out

 

[Aivilo]

20 years in the industry and countless worthy people assisted and successful in ge

Avilo not sure that’s true. I am an outsider and went for job interview last week and when I signed in reception there were 3 entries above me for internal candidates .....the internal jobs are not “offered first” to internals it’s all bundled in.

20 years in the industry and countless worthy people assisted and successful 1st time in getting on the railway. Guess I shouldn't comment

 

[Highlandspring]

No one was born into railway service. Everyone in the industry joined as an external applicant at some point...

 

[ComUtoR]

No one was born into railway service.

Wasn't born here but I feel like I live here

Plenty of 'Railway Families' on our patch.

 

[Highlandspring]

Yes of course there are railway dynasties up and down the country. They all still came in as external applicants though and many will, no doubt, have been up against internal candidates.

 

[Stigy]

It very much depends on the job as to whether internal/external candidates are given preference to be fair (and depends on the company largely too). For example, a lot of management positions are earmarked. It’s well known in the industry that nepotism etc is rife.

I know a few TOCs prioritise internals for certain driving/guard roles too, but this tends to be later down the line beyond interview stage, rather than from the initial sift.

 

[Highlandspring]

It used to be the case that higher graded signalman/signaller jobs were recruited exclusively from the lower grades (on the basis of seniority) but Network Rail has turned this on its head and you can now walk into a grade 9 or 10 job off the street ahead of any number of existing signallers on the strength of a good interview alone. It’s definitely the internal candidates who have been disadvantaged by this.

 

[garryyy]

Someone from metrolink told me that they've changed the test from assessment day starting this month. No simulator
Now the assessments are taking place at Hilton - deansgate
Anyone been on the last week assessment day?