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International sleeper trains - present / potential / priorities

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AlbertBeale

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Given one or two items elsewhere in the forums, and the latest news about the new Vienna-Brussels service just starting, maybe there should be a thread on this topic - especially looking at priorities and possibilities (including which routes should be top of the list to [re-]introduce).

For example, I've seen a suggestion that new Austrian sleeping car stock might have pods rather than couchettes, and might also then make actual sleeper compartments all more upmarket / en suite. Personally, not generally using couchettes these days, but sometimes travelling with a friend and sharing a two-berth sleeper, I'm already finding the cost as much as I can afford. If all the "proper" sleeper compartments went upmarket, I might be priced out of using sleepers, just when I'm contemplating using them a bit more. (I find the facilities in a regular sleeper perfectly adequate for a night, and don't want to be forced to pay more for luxury I don't want.)

I'd be happy for some of the couchettes to be "podded" (if people really want something that looks a bit claustrophobic) - though I'd have thought the existing "cheap and cheerful" style is fine for groups of people; but I hope they don't increase the proportion of the more upmarket sleeper compartments at the expense of regular sleeper compartments.
 
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30907

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There are sundry threads on sleeper routes which I don't want to duplicate.

On sleeper design:
the pods will be combinable side-by-side by opening the dividing wall;
there will be complete compartments for up to 4, but without washbasin, which should cover the demand for ordinary sleepers (as with the SNCF night trains).
The sleepers will all be ensuite - this is not really surprising, as there is suppressed demand for these currently.
Source (sorry, in German):
https://blog.oebb.at/die-nightjets-der-neuen-generation/
 

duesselmartin

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well, that's an improvement on the old Oebb couchettes which had nothing to stop you falling out of the top bunk

That was half the fun?

Did the UK never have couchettes? I wonder why full sleepers seem economically viable for British Rail and successers yet. European operators like DB, NS or ÖBB always concentrated on couchettes with only one or two real sleepers a train.
 

gordonthemoron

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That was half the fun?

Did the UK never have couchettes? I wonder why full sleepers seem economically viable for British Rail and successers yet. European operators like DB, NS or ÖBB always concentrated on couchettes with only one or two real sleepers a train.

UK sleepers are heavily subsidised
 

AlbertBeale

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There are sundry threads on sleeper routes which I don't want to duplicate.

On sleeper design:
the pods will be combinable side-by-side by opening the dividing wall;
there will be complete compartments for up to 4, but without washbasin, which should cover the demand for ordinary sleepers (as with the SNCF night trains).
The sleepers will all be ensuite - this is not really surprising, as there is suppressed demand for these currently.
Source (sorry, in German):
https://blog.oebb.at/die-nightjets-der-neuen-generation/

I'm afraid I can't cope with the German. But if "complete compartments for up to 4" means that, eg, two people could block book a 4-place couchette-style compartment, that's not very attractive compared with a two-bed sleeper with basin and so on (and, presumably, booking 4 places for 2 people isn't cheap). It does seem that people using standard sleepers (which are a major part of the market on sleeper routes I've been on in recent years) will have to upgrade [no doubt en suite luxury sleeper berths will be a lot more expensive than regular ones] or downgrade, whether they want to or not; that seems a strange way to deal with a major part of your user base. It would certainly cut my use of overnight services if it was a widespread change.
 

30907

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Did the UK never have couchettes?
The original third class sleepers from the 1920s were effectively 4-berth couchettes and lasted into the 60s IIRC. 2-berth third class sleepers were introduced by British Railways.

if "complete compartments for up to 4" means that, eg, two people could block book a 4-place couchette-style compartment, that's not very attractive compared with a two-bed sleeper with basin and so on (and, presumably, booking 4 places for 2 people isn't cheap).
...it would certainly cut my use of overnight services if it was a widespread change.
As we dont know the prices NJ will charge, it's anybody's guess how they will compare - though the SNCF model might give a clue.
Having a reasonable chance of an ensuite sleeper would certainly increase my usage!
 

AlbertBeale

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As we dont know the prices NJ will charge, it's anybody's guess how they will compare - though the SNCF model might give a clue.
Having a reasonable chance of an ensuite sleeper would certainly increase my usage!

I'm not against there being en suite sleepers too, for those who can afford it (maybe the sort of people who travel first class...) - but this shouldn't be a service targetted at richer people, like the London-Scotland sleeper is now, where poorer travellers lose out.

By the way - what's the SNCF model then?
 

Cloud Strife

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Given one or two items elsewhere in the forums, and the latest news about the new Vienna-Brussels service just starting, maybe there should be a thread on this topic - especially looking at priorities and possibilities (including which routes should be top of the list to [re-]introduce).

An obvious one is a route from somewhere in Western Europe towards Warsaw. Brussels to Warsaw should be about 12 hours via Cologne and Berlin, so quite a logical route. If it was timed correctly, then it could be possible to attach some day coaches in Berlin to cater for those that want a early start in Warsaw (Polish business hours are often 7am-3pm) without having to fly from either Berlin or Poznań.
 

03_179

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With the introduction of the NightJets from Bruxelles to Wien Hauptbahnhof, I can envisage through trains from St Pancras International one day.
 

route101

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An obvious one is a route from somewhere in Western Europe towards Warsaw. Brussels to Warsaw should be about 12 hours via Cologne and Berlin, so quite a logical route. If it was timed correctly, then it could be possible to attach some day coaches in Berlin to cater for those that want a early start in Warsaw (Polish business hours are often 7am-3pm) without having to fly from either Berlin or Poznań.

There was a Brussels or Amsterdam to Warsaw .
 

BahrainLad

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With the introduction of the NightJets from Bruxelles to Wien Hauptbahnhof, I can envisage through trains from St Pancras International one day.

Whilst this would be great, presumably it would need dedicated stock, and all of the immigration issues that Eurostar has with EU-UK passengers.
 

03_179

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Just a thought but, could the NightJet stock be used to Belgian border then the Belgium loco takes over to Bruxelles like it does now, then a Class 92 be attached to take it the rest of the way ?

Would the NightJet stock fit through the tunnel?

Additionally, if the stock fits and 92 scenario works could there not be sleepers to run from sat Manchester, Birmingham, Scotland to mainland Europe to the likes of Vienna, Frankfurt, Amsterdam and other locations?

In America they have trains from East to West coast there could potentially be from the UK to Rome, Venice etc. Long haul.
 

valedave

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Vienna - Brussels is a great (re-)start to night trains in Europe. Seems like governments, in this case Austria and in the Malmö-Cologne plans Sweden, are finally waking up to the need.

IMO Vienna - Brussels needs to leave Vienna earlier to optimise the running, 10:55 is too late arriving in Brussels. The DB CityNightLines into Paris arrived at 9:25 and I think that was acceptable. Anything around 9/10am would be excellent. That would mean a 6am arrival in Cologne, but again I think that's acceptable. Can't wait to use it from Nürnberg for trips to the UK.

DB pulling their CNLs might be the best thing that ever happened to night trains in this country. I've done a couple of the overnight ICEs, mostly from Ruhr Valley to Bavaria, and my god they are horrendous. Bright, loud, uncomfortable – it's obvious that the decision-makers at DB towers never use them.

As far as future plans go, Vienna-Amsterdam should follow in December when the Brussels train goes daily. I think Paris is high on the ÖBB list too, although I'm not sure how that would run from Vienna – perhaps run Berlin+Hamburg legs too and couple them somewhere (Frankfurt?) en route.
 

cle

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I'd think North (East/West) England to the SW, and South Coast/Thames Valley or Cardiff/Bristol and Brum etc to Scotland would be more likely than intl sleeper services out of London. Especially if domestic holidaying picks up more with Brexit. Not that many journeys are long enough, frankly!

I'm not sure if more traditional/ non-HS stock can even use HS1 especially the tunnel, or if it could be pathed. Would be amazing though, could see it being hugely popular if it could work. But we don't even have Eurostar to Cologne yet, or meaningful frequency south of Paris.
 

ashkeba

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DB pulling their CNLs might be the best thing that ever happened to night trains in this country. I've done a couple of the overnight ICEs, mostly from Ruhr Valley to Bavaria, and my god they are horrendous. Bright, loud, uncomfortable – it's obvious that the decision-makers at DB towers never use them.
Yes, even for seated overnight trains, they seem unsuited for it, much worse than a sleeper seated car where there is usually at least dimmed lighting and reduced annoucements. There seems to be not much written online about them yet. Is it because they are too poor to excite people to write? Is it because they look and sound exactly like the day trains on a dark winter evening?

As far as future plans go, Vienna-Amsterdam should follow in December when the Brussels train goes daily. I think Paris is high on the ÖBB list too, although I'm not sure how that would run from Vienna – perhaps run Berlin+Hamburg legs too and couple them somewhere (Frankfurt?) en route.
I think Vienna-Zurich-Paris is about 15 hours by non-ICE/TGV so might be possible. 7pm departure for 10am arrival but it would get cancelled as soon as any part of the route was restricted. Maybe it will run to/from Innsbruck like parts of the Brussels and Hamburg sleepers do.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Cutting them all?
Almost... the remaining French sleepers are much like the early days of Megabus: limited facilities, minimal staffing, no on-board catering, dated vehicles. They're run out of social obligation rather than a means to drive revenue, and it shows.
 

30907

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[QUOTE="AlbertBeale, post: 4397299, member: 70479] what's the SNCF model then?[/QUOTE]
Compartments for 4, bookable for exclusive use (espace privatif, as an alternative to trad model of couchettes). But as others have said, SNCF would rather be shot of them.
 
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30907

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IMO Vienna - Brussels needs to leave Vienna earlier to optimise the running, 10:55 is too late arriving in Brussels. The DB CityNightLines into Paris arrived at 9:25 and I think that was acceptable. Anything around 9/10am would be excellent. That would mean a 6am arrival in Cologne, but again I think that's acceptable. Can't wait to use it from Nürnberg for trips to the UK.

As far as future plans go, Vienna-Amsterdam should follow in December when the Brussels train goes daily. I think Paris is high on the ÖBB list too, although I'm not sure how that would run from Vienna – perhaps run Berlin+Hamburg legs too and couple them somewhere (Frankfurt?) en route.
Timing is a delicate issue: ATM the Brussels train is a tweak of the existing path, which has to fit with a decent arrival time in Hamburg too AND a tolerable departure from Munich, and it gets a dreadful path to and from Brussels because it was introduced at such short notice.
IF an additional train ran from Vienna to cover Brussels/Amsterdam that would simplify matters (and possibly convey a Paris portion, as you suggest) but it might decimate loadings from Duesseldorf/Koeln. We need to wait and see...
 

valedave

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I think Vienna-Zurich-Paris is about 15 hours by non-ICE/TGV so might be possible. 7pm departure for 10am arrival but it would get cancelled as soon as any part of the route was restricted. Maybe it will run to/from Innsbruck like parts of the Brussels and Hamburg sleepers do.

I was expecting a seated sleeper the first time, but I felt like I was in a parallel universe with a whole population of nocturnal people carrying on as normal as if it were 3pm and not 3am. People were laying down in the bicycle storage area on the Cologne-Frankfurt train.

I think Vienna-Zurich-Paris is about 15 hours by non-ICE/TGV so might be possible. 7pm departure for 10am arrival but it would get cancelled as soon as any part of the route was restricted. Maybe it will run to/from Innsbruck like parts of the Brussels and Hamburg sleepers do.

Ah of course, didn't think of that. But then you're probably talking an extremely early Zurich arrival, and the train originates in Budapest so it would ruin that leg (or brings the departure time forward far too early).

Perhaps they could leave the Zurich service as it is and use their new NJs for a Vienna/Innsbruck-Paris run via Nürnberg-Stuttgart-Strasbourg, the latter being of great interest to all their MEPs of course (which was the primary driver behing the Brussels service).

Timing is a delicate issue: ATM the Brussels train is a tweak of the existing path, which has to fit with a decent arrival time in Hamburg too AND a tolerable departure from Munich, and it gets a dreadful path to and from Brussels because it was introduced at such short notice.
IF an additional train ran from Vienna to cover Brussels/Amsterdam that would simplify matters (and possibly convey a Paris portion, as you suggest) but it might decimate loadings from Duesseldorf/Koeln. We need to wait and see...

Very true also. I'd keep the Brussels/Amsterdam service separate to serve the Ruhr – again fingers' crossed for a slight timing tweak when that all gets going.
I just want the service to serve Nuremberg at a time more suited to myself, rather than having to wait around until 1:15am for its arrival (could be much worse of course) ;)
 

EAD

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So as someone with family in Tirol, Austria I have made use of the Nightjet option since ÖBB added on the Innsbruck portion and created the scissor set up at Nürnberg (Düsseldorf and Hamburg departures both have a Wien/Vienna and Innsbruck portion which then get swapped at Nürnberg - previously it was a Y to the Austrian capital only (which I used as well).

I have just come off this morning's Innsbruck - Brussels sleeper and was on the inaugural run the other way on Monday 20th. As already mentioned above, the pathing in Belgium is not optimal for a few reasons, mainly fitting in around the other regular trains/slack in timings and the fact that while HSL2 is used, the trains cannot use HSL3 between Liege and Aachen so you get to use the twisty classic line through the northern Ardennes. I believe the latter us because HSL3 requires ERTMS2, whereas HSL2 has Belgian TBL2 fitted and so is currently also used by domestic IC trains and indeed class 18s (the new ones) haul the Nightjets in Belgium.

ÖBB management have already been clear that December 2020 will see improvements to the path and so in particular an earlier arrival in Brussels. As SNCB are partner in Belgium (they have crew join/leave at Aachen), one would hope improvements could be made. From a quick look at things you could hope for the following (paths permitting):

1. Cut times in Belgium. To Germany the train is currently scheduled for 1h44 to Aachen (though to do that you really need to get it on to HSL3 as 1hour to Liege is fine - ICE takes 50 mins for example). You could save time on HSL3 - currently you need 40 mins to get to Aachen v 20 mins on the new line. Of course this is subject to whether it is allowed onto HSL3 (I have not checked id there is any other issue beyond signalling). You could maybe get it nearer 1h20 and so leave later, but then you have to path it after the ICE at 18:25 from Midi.

2. Cut the horrid path in to Brussels from Germany. Currently the train has 25 mins to stand at Aachen - it also has a lot of slack in given it is battling its way around Belgian regular interval services - it has 1h55 this way to get to Midi and this morning we regularly got looped/checked and still made it on time. If you got rid of the near 30 mins in Aachen (could be 10-15 for engine change) and tweaked the rest (let's say using HSL3) then you could could get to Brussels by say 10:05 (so 50 mins ahead of now). This would allow connection into the 10:52 Eurostar

Of course you are a little constrained elsewhere to make the service work for the various German departure points too and with a view to arrival times there as well - those are pretty good at the moment to be fair.
 

MarcVD

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I have just come off this morning's Innsbruck - Brussels sleeper and was on the inaugural run the other way on Monday 20th. As already mentioned above, the pathing in Belgium is not optimal for a few reasons, mainly fitting in around the other regular trains/slack in timings and the fact that while HSL2 is used, the trains cannot use HSL3 between Liege and Aachen so you get to use the twisty classic line through the northern Ardennes. I believe the latter us because HSL3 requires ERTMS2, whereas HSL2 has Belgian TBL2 fitted and so is currently also used by domestic IC trains and indeed class 18s (the new ones) haul the Nightjets in Belgium.

No more TBL2 on HSL2 anymore since a year or so. It is all ERTMS there too now. The problem is just that the versions installed on HSL2 and HSL3 are not the same, and for the version installed on HSL3, the HLE18 locs are not yet qualified.
 

EAD

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No more TBL2 on HSL2 anymore since a year or so. It is all ERTMS there too now. The problem is just that the versions installed on HSL2 and HSL3 are not the same, and for the version installed on HSL3, the HLE18 locs are not yet qualified.
Thank you Marc - I read about the HLE18 locos not being equipped but could not recall the details. Is there a plan to make that upgrade to allow them onto HSL3 as well? Still nice to take the original line 37 via Verviers through all the tunnels and numerous river crossings (especially the Vesdre).
 

MarcVD

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Thank you Marc - I read about the HLE18 locos not being equipped but could not recall the details. Is there a plan to make that upgrade to allow them onto HSL3 as well? Still nice to take the original line 37 via Verviers through all the tunnels and numerous river crossings (especially the Vesdre).

Currently, there is no other business case than this bi-weekly international train to justify the expense of qualifying HLE18 on HSL3. With only that, I doubt very much that it would be undertaken.
 

popeter45

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Just a thought but, could the NightJet stock be used to Belgian border then the Belgium loco takes over to Bruxelles like it does now, then a Class 92 be attached to take it the rest of the way ?

Would the NightJet stock fit through the tunnel?

Additionally, if the stock fits and 92 scenario works could there not be sleepers to run from sat Manchester, Birmingham, Scotland to mainland Europe to the likes of Vienna, Frankfurt, Amsterdam and other locations?

In America they have trains from East to West coast there could potentially be from the UK to Rome, Venice etc. Long haul.

NightJet Stock both old and new isnt safety rated for the Channel tunnel
if a Nightstar idea was going to be a thing i would say do what china is doing and do Sleeper EMU's (e.g. build a eurostar E300/320 or other channel tunnel safety rated train with sleeper/couchette compartments)
 

AlbertBeale

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NightJet Stock both old and new isnt safety rated for the Channel tunnel
if a Nightstar idea was going to be a thing i would say do what china is doing and do Sleeper EMU's (e.g. build a eurostar E300/320 or other channel tunnel safety rated train with sleeper/couchette compartments)

Significantly increased international sleeper traffic - if we assume that's the future - suggests a case both for overnight trains from northern Britain to Paris/Brussels, and also for overnight trains from London to places further into mainland Europe. In terms of the former, would Eurostar-style EMUs be able to access and to run on main routes to the north (and west) of London? For the latter, an extension of (appropriately safety-rated versions of) existing mainland European sleeper stock would surely be the easiest.
 

popeter45

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Significantly increased international sleeper traffic - if we assume that's the future - suggests a case both for overnight trains from northern Britain to Paris/Brussels, and also for overnight trains from London to places further into mainland Europe. In terms of the former, would Eurostar-style EMUs be able to access and to run on main routes to the north (and west) of London? For the latter, an extension of (appropriately safety-rated versions of) existing mainland European sleeper stock would surely be the easiest.

Class 373's are designed to UK loading gauge and plans where in place to run up the WCML for regional Eurostar so while maybe needing power car replacements as pretty sure they are end of life could find a new lease of life as sleepers

No existing sleeper stock is safety rated for the channel tunnel and the cost to do so would be more than just buying new stock
 
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