Interpretation of "impartial retailing"

[MarkyMarkD]

I am aware of the responsibilities on rail companies to retail impartially (unless they say that they only sell their own tickets through particular sales channels).

How do others interpret the breadth of this responsibility? Does it extend to a "best advice" concept?

I have read others on this forum saying that they would recommend a split (for example) where it is cheaper than a through ticket. I don't personally think that it is necessary for ticket office staff to do this - there are an almost infinite number of possible splits and it would be impossible to reliably give advice on which is the best one.

But there are other occasions where it is completely self-evident that what a customer asks for, is not the best deal.

E.g. a customer asks for full-price standard tickets, off peak, to travel on a long journey with himself and his 4 children.

In almost every case, it is cheaper for the customer to buy a Family & Friends Railcard, there and then, and then buy exactly the same tickets with that railcard eligibility, than to buy the full-price tickets.

So, should the ticket office clerk advise doing so? And do ticket office clerks advise doing so?

What do people think?

 

[AlterEgo]

The interpretation is somewhat loose and people have differing opinions on what impartial actually means. For me, if a customer presents themselves at the ticket office asking for their cheapest travel options, the clerk doesn't have to look for splits. It takes us long enough on here to check them all out! However, I do expect the clerk to:

Ask if they'd like flexible or fixed tickets
Ask for likely times of travel
Suggest a railcard if one may be appropriate
Check season tickets for repeat journeys (some are economical even over 2 days)
Check rail rovers and rangers, which are sometimes cheaper than just a return!
Check relevant groupsave options if applicable
Ask if they'd like to be restricted to a particular route
Advise about excess fare procedure if customer is unsure about travel plans


There may be a couple I've missed out, but that's my expectation.

 

[yorkie]

I am aware of the responsibilities on rail companies to retail impartially (unless they say that they only sell their own tickets through particular sales channels.

How do others interpret the breadth of this responsibility? Does it extend to a "best advice" concept?

You mean you know of the term, but not the definition?

When asking for an interpretation, are you asking if we know what the definition is, or are you asking what we guess it is, or what we think it should be?

I have read others on this forum saying that they would recommend a split (for example) where it is cheaper than a through ticket. I don't personally think that it is necessary for ticket office staff to do this

If they do, they are not being 'impartial' and they are not supposed to do this. I think it is great customer service though, but I do not like to state where and when this occurs on a public forum as you can get staff into trouble for being helpful.

- there are an almost infinite number of possible splits and it would be impossible to reliably give advice on which is the best one.

Well, that is one good reason, yes!

But there are other occasions where it is completely self-evident that what a customer asks for, is not the best deal.

E.g. a customer asks for full-price standard tickets, off peak, to travel on a long journey with himself and his 4 children.

In almost every case, it is cheaper for the customer to buy a Family & Friends Railcard, there and then, and then buy exactly the same tickets with that railcard eligibility, than to buy the full-price tickets.

So, should the ticket office clerk advise doing so? And do ticket office clerks advise doing so?

What do people think?

It depends on what they say. If they ask for a specific ticket type, then that can be sold without asking any questions. If they asked for a 'peak' return then as the term 'peak' is not a ticket type, I believe clarification should be sought on what time/date the customer wished to return in order to comply with the requirements of impartial retailing, as defined in the Retail Standards Guide.

Impartiality simply means providing the customer with information or a ticket that is the most suitable for their needs. Retailers must not favour their own train services, or those of any TOC over others in providing information or selling the ticket.​

Where a customer asks to purchase a specific fare for a specific journey, this can be sold without giving any further information (TSA clause 6-30(2)(d)).
​

In many cases only one fare will meet the customer’s requirements as only one TOC provides a service for the journey concerned. Even where more than one TOC is involved the customer may be specific by stating their requirements in terms of:

• Destination station​
• Ticket Type​
• Train ​
• Class​

In these circumstances, the Retailer only needs to seek further information when the customer wants to make a journey that cannot be made with that fare. An example is a customer requesting a discounted fare at a time of day when this fare is not valid.

Where the customer does not specify which fare they want and more than one is available that may meet their requirements, the Retailer must seek additional information to enable the correct fare to be sold. If more than one fare is suitable for their needs, the Retailer must explain the main features of the alternatives impartially (TSA clause 6-30(2))​

 

[MarkyMarkD]

Thanks, both.

I think I meant, as Yorkie said, that I knew of the term but not the definition.

The definition from the Retailing Standards Guide is pretty helpful, although it doesn't explicitly mention things like railcards and the consideration of railcard-discounted fares as part of the mix - but equally well it doesn't exclude it, and therefore logically where "Railcard + discounted ticket" costs less than "Non-discounted ticket", the railcard option should be offered.

The background to this enquiry is that I daftly managed yesterday to spend more money on "Non-discounted ticket" than on "Railcard + discounted ticket" and therefore consider (with hindsight) that I did not benefit from "impartial retailing".

 

[OwlMan]

If you asked for the tickets the member of staff only had the obligation to issue you with those tickets. There are several reasons why a railcard may not be appropiate for your journey (for instance on parent coming home at a different time).

Peter

 

[AlterEgo]

The background to this enquiry is that I daftly managed yesterday to spend more money on "Non-discounted ticket" than on "Railcard + discounted ticket" and therefore consider (with hindsight) that I did not benefit from "impartial retailing".

It may not be obvious that you qualify for a railcard, however...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, as Yorkie says, if you simply ask for the ticket by name, then the clerk has only to issue you with that ticket to comply with "impartiality".

If I ask for a "First Off-Peak Single, Sunderland to London with Grand Central, please", then they are not obliged to ask if you are entitled to any further discount.

 

[All Line Rover]

Also, as Yorkie says, if you simply ask for the ticket by name, then the clerk has only to issue you with that ticket to comply with "impartiality".

If I ask for a "First Off-Peak Single, Sunderland to London with Grand Central, please", then they are not obliged to ask if you are entitled to any further discount.

PLEASE IGNORE WHAT I SAID BEFORE.

UPDATED: If I was working in a ticket office, I would do everything as per the Retail Standards Guide, which Yorkie quoted.

My apologies!

 

[MarkyMarkD]

If you asked for the tickets the member of staff only had the obligation to issue you with those tickets. There are several reasons why a railcard may not be appropiate for your journey (for instance on parent coming home at a different time).

Peter

Generally, yes, but not in these circumstances:

"Customer: Hello, I've got some railcard discounted tickets for a journey today, and I have lost my railcard. Can I part-exchange them for non-railcard tickets.

Staff member: No, because [some obscure and not convincing reason about them being Southern online discounted tickets] they are not on our system and therefore I cannot upgrade them. You'll have to buy new tickets."

Evidently the intention was to travel together with the railcard, complying with the conditions of the railcard.

 

[AlterEgo]

If I was working in the ticket office and the journey was a few weeks ahead, I would still ask the customer if they preferred to travel with East Coast on EC&Connections Advance tickets since it may be cheaper.

You could ask that, but you would not have to. In fact, because I have specifically asked for a ticket by name with (admittedly limited) flexibility, and with a specific route/TOC, then I personally would not expect to be asked if I wanted another ticket. The ticket you suggest is inflexible (if I wanted to change it it would cost me £10 more!) and might not be suited to my needs. Indeed, GC might accuse you of not being impartial by trying to dissuade an informed passenger from travelling with them by suggesting a ticket which is not a direct equivalent.

If I said "I want to go from Sunderland to London today, can I have a ticket please?" then yes I should be asked.

 

[yorkie]

I agree with AlterEgo. If I asked specifically for a GC ticket I would not expect EC to try to persuade me to travel with them instead! GC can be naughty though, when asking for a day return York to Hartlepool they have asked for more than the price of the day return, expecting me to buy the GC only Anytime return instead, but when I queried the price on each time they then found the correct ticket.

If you ask for something specific, you expect to get it without fuss.

 

[All Line Rover]

You could ask that, but you would not have to. In fact, because I have specifically asked for a ticket by name with (admittedly limited) flexibility, and with a specific route/TOC, then I personally would not expect to be asked if I wanted another ticket. The ticket you suggest is inflexible (if I wanted to change it it would cost me £10 more!) and might not be suited to my needs. Indeed, GC might accuse you of not being impartial by trying to dissuade an informed passenger from travelling with them by suggesting a ticket which is not a direct equivalent.

If I said "I want to go from Sunderland to London today, can I have a ticket please?" then yes I should be asked.

PLEASE IGNORE MY RAMBLINGs!

 

[Greenback]

But I would ask them if they want a "flexible" ticket first. They may simply have mentioned "Grand Central" because they traveled with them before and liked the experience - not because they want the flexibility.

I don't see how Grand Central could accuse me of not being impartial when I simply want to give the customer the cheapest ticket that is suited to their needs.

For example:

Customer: First Off-Peak Single, Sunderland to London with Grand Central, please.

Me: Are you travelling today?

Customer (Scenario 1): Yes (go to blue text)​

Customer (Scenario 2): No

Me: Are you able to commit to a travelling on a specific train, which could be much cheaper, or do you need to have the flexibility of travelling on any train?

Customer (Scenario 1): I need to be flexible.​

​

Me: OK (goes and prints ticket - obviously things such as the ticket being GC only would be mentioned.)*​

​

Customer (Scenario 2): I want the cheapest ticket.

Me: OK (goes on to discuss Advance tickets.)

*GC is the cheapest, so no questions asked.

Clearly you have never worked in a ticket office! The whole point of people asking for the exact ticket is, as Yorkie has mentioned, to speed up the porcess of buying the ticket by avoiding the many questions that are often necessary in order to establish the needs of the customer!

 

[All Line Rover]

Clearly you have never worked in a ticket office! The whole point of people asking for the exact ticket is, as Yorkie has mentioned, to speed up the porcess of buying the ticket by avoiding the many questions that are often necessary in order to establish the needs of the customer!

Well, erm, no I haven't, but not every customer knows loads about tickets.

-

When I go to the Crewe ticket office (on the odd occasion) I say: "I want a CHILD Crewe to Manchester VT Only FDS, please." Ticket clerk: "". Me: ":roll:"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would also point out that most people "in the know" buy their tickets online, to avoiding dealing with unknowledgeable ticket office staff.

Having said that, there is - and always will be - a need for real humans in ticket offices.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

When I worked in a booking office, many of the clerks just sold the ticket most suited for what they asked for, including a First Class Return to London, without the 'You could split at.....' lecture.

 

[All Line Rover]

DELETED - incorrect information.

 

[Greenback]

Well, erm, no I haven't, but not every customer knows loads about tickets.

On second for the example I gave wasn't excellent - they asked for a specific TOC so they know what they're talking about! But what if someone said this?...

• I want to travel direct from Sunderland to London please.

Would it be worth pointing out to them that it may be cheaper to change at York?

When I go to the Crewe ticket office (on the odd occasion) I say: "I want a CHILD Crewe to Manchester VT Only FDS, please." Ticket clerk: "". Me: ":roll:"

Exactly! Not everyone knows much about tickets, so there is a need for the questions with irregular travellers or those unfamiliar with the ridiculously complex ticketing system (and it is far more complicated now than it was when I was in the booking office!).

So, it beenfits everyone if the wise and experienced passenger asks for precisely what they want, as this will save much time for the clerk, the customer and the others waiting behind them. The last thing anyone needs is to ask more questions when they are not necessary!

I don't think we can expect clerks to know everything about possible journeys. In the case of Sunderland to London it may well be cheaper to change at York but that would come under split ticketing and there are simply too many possibilites and combinations to go into. If the customer has indicated they want a flexible ticket, then they will have the flexibility of breaking their journey and changing trains wherever they find most convenient. Aside from pointing out any tiem or route restricitions, there isn't much else for the clerk to add.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Exactly! Not everyone knows much about tickets, so there is a need for the questions with irregular travellers or those unfamiliar with the ridiculously complex ticketing system (and it is far more complicated now than it was when I was in the booking office!).

So, it beenfits everyone if the wise and experienced passenger asks for precisely what they want, as this will save much time for the clerk, the customer and the others waiting behind them. The last thing anyone needs is to ask more questions when they are not necessary!

I don't think we can expect clerks to know everything about possible journeys. In the case of Sunderland to London it may well be cheaper to change at York but that would come under split ticketing and there are simply too many possibilites and combinations to go into. If the customer has indicated they want a flexible ticket, then they will have the flexibility of breaking their journey and changing trains wherever they find most convenient. Aside from pointing out any tiem or route restricitions, there isn't much else for the clerk to add.

Indeed. I must have spent 30-45 minutes this year waiting in booking office queues as confused passengers try to work out whether its best to split at x, or travel via y, or get a whatever to z. Very annoying.

 

[All Line Rover]

Exactly! Not everyone knows much about tickets, so there is a need for the questions with irregular travellers or those unfamiliar with the ridiculously complex ticketing system (and it is far more complicated now than it was when I was in the booking office!).

So, it beenfits everyone if the wise and experienced passenger asks for precisely what they want, as this will save much time for the clerk, the customer and the others waiting behind them. The last thing anyone needs is to ask more questions when they are not necessary!

I don't think we can expect clerks to know everything about possible journeys. In the case of Sunderland to London it may well be cheaper to change at York but that would come under split ticketing and there are simply too many possibilites and combinations to go into. If the customer has indicated they want a flexible ticket, then they will have the flexibility of breaking their journey and changing trains wherever they find most convenient. Aside from pointing out any tiem or route restricitions, there isn't much else for the clerk to add.

You don't split the ticket at York - you simply sell an EC&Connections ticket which involves a change at York (and it can be much cheaper).

 

[Greenback]

You don't split the ticket at York - you simply sell an EC&Connections ticket which involves a change at York (and it can be much cheaper).

If the customer has already indicated that they want the direct train, there is no need to offer it at all.

 

[All Line Rover]

- deleted

 

[Greenback]

Really? That surprises me, particularly as changing at York/Newcastle can sometimes be quicker than a direct train. GC is also an exception, having no Advance tickets.

If I asked for a direct LM train from Crewe to London Euston, I would still expect to me told that changing at Stafford can be quicker. Both trains use the same platform anyway!

Not everyone is happy changing. Some people, maybe seniors, those with mobility issues and/or heavy luggage may well prefer a direct train regardless of speed or cost. That is passenger choice. If they have already told you what they want, it is pointless asking them again. It will only irritate the customer if they are in a hurry.

Of course, if they haven't provided the information, then there are many questions that may need to be asked!

 

[OwlMan]

Really? That surprises me, particularly as changing at York/Newcastle can sometimes be quicker than a direct train. GC is also an exception, having no Advance tickets.

If I asked for a direct LM train from Crewe to London Euston, I would still expect to me told that changing at Stafford can be quicker. Both trains use the same platform anyway!

Travelling from Crewe to London it is not quicker to change at Stafford (the Birmingham train leaves about 10 minutes before the London one)- travelling from London - Crewe it is quicker.

 

[All Line Rover]

Travelling from Crewe to London it is not quicker to change at Stafford (the Birmingham train leaves about 10 minutes before the London one)- travelling from London - Crewe it is quicker.

You missed the word "LM" - i.e. "LM only."

 

[RJ]

Offering splits causes confusion and upset, restricts the options of the customer and may cause them to have to enter into discussion with a ticket inspector en route. It's a bad practice and shouldn't be done IMO. Not everybody is literate when it comes to ticketing and some people don't want to be taught, they just want to buy one ticket from A-B and have a trouble-free journey. I speak from experience.

As for the example in the first post, most of the time I offered Groupsave as in the majority of cases where it's valid, it's cheaper than using a railcard, especially as kids go for a quid. For expensive journeys, yes I took 10 seconds to check to see if a F&F deal was cheaper than normal tickets, same for those who forgot their railcard prior to travel. Sometimes the difference in price was more than the price of the railcard.

I often gave customers an overdistance excess when they requested an add on ticket as the excess was normally cheaper and didn't break condition 19 (which was rarely enforced anyway).

Anyone asking for a return trip on the Underground after 09:30 got a Travelcard. I was always keen to offer a rover or ranger, but they were never cheaper than other standard options.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

You would most likely be fired if you gave the "you could split at" lecture!

Could you explain what grounds the HR department woud use to substantiate that that please? I'm assuming you're referring to the Employment Relations Acts? Is that right?

 

[All Line Rover]

Could you explain what grounds the HR department woud use to substantiate that that please? I'm assuming you're referring to the Employment Relations Acts? Is that right?

If you work in a ticket office, according to ATOC you are employed to sell the ticket that a customer asks for and not look for splitting/over-distance options. To me that seems sensible.

If you told customers about splitting combinations, you would:

• Not be doing what you are employed to be doing
• Be losing the TOC revenue
• Cause delays, wasting other customers time

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Thanks, I didn't know that.
But I'm still unclear how any employee, with a Contract of Employment, and with or without Union representation at any of the statutory pre-dismissal discussions, could find . . . .

You would most likely be fired if you gave the "you could split at" lecture!

That's what I'd like your help in understanding if you could, please?

This could be of great assistance to hundreds, perhaps thousands of rail professionals, not to mention their advocates and representative bodies.

 

[All Line Rover]

Thanks, I didn't know that.
But I'm still unclear how any employee, with a Contract of Employment, and with or without Union representation at any of the statutory pre-dismissal discussions, could find . . . .
That's what I'd like your help in understanding if you could, please?

- I was wrong here.

I still would never dare give out split-ticketing information if I was working for Virgin.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This could be of great assistance to hundreds, perhaps thousands of rail professionals, not to mention their advocates and representative bodies.

I think that there are very few staff employed by TOC's who tell customers about split-ticketing opportunities.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

For example, imagine if a Maths teacher taught his classes Science instead!

How is that anything like what we are talking about???

 

[All Line Rover]

-