Invalid Ticket

[A.h]

On 28 September, I Bought ticket via Omio Application on my mobile for Bristol to Derby (on 28/09/2019) and return journey from Derby to Bristol (on 29/09/2019). On the 29th of September, I went to the Derby train station, while I’m in the train for the return journey from Derby to Bristol, An inspector came to me asking for the ticket, which I showed to her and she said it is activated before, then I told her I didn’t use it before, and the date and time wrote on the ticket, she didn’t show to me there is something wrong at all, she gave me a ticket with zero price and took some information and my phone number and told me there is someone will call me, just asking for what was happening. I showed her all the evidence of my good intention and I was ready for any penalty, even though I already paid for the ticket for the right time. I showed her the railcard of mine, all the information that she needed and she called my mobile number to make sure that’s my mobile number, but she didn’t show me at all any chance for paid the ticket again or paying penalty.

I realized after this situation that I shall activate the E-ticket just before the journey, which I mistakenly activated it the day before for the return journey to Bristol.

The thing is, transport investigations which is an agent for the cross-country trains, sent a letter to me stating of the incident and telling me that this file is presently with their prosecutions team who are considering whether to issue a summons for inclusion in a forthcoming Magistrates Court list (these considerations may include whether any charge should allege an offence against railway byelaws (2005), or the regulation of rails act 1889).

And asking me to send a response.

I sent an email to them explaining what happened, and offer to pay the ticket again.

But they sent to me second letter, stating that “Thank you for your letter in respect of this case. We have noted your comments in response to our earlier letter. It is always the traveller's responsibility to pay the correct fare due and to obtain a valid ticket before boarding any train where pre-purchase facilities are available. The ticket shown on the day was showing as already used, therefore was invalid. Where pre-purchase facilities are not available and any person boards a train without a valid ticket, it is always the responsibility of that passenger to declare the journey to on train staff and pay the fare due immediately. The rail company report of this matter alleges that you had failed to pay the correct fare due and had boarded a train with the intention of travelling without having previously paid the correct amount. The company is entitled to consider whether a charge of 'intent to avoid a fare' could be alleged. These are matters that may be summoned for hearing before a Magistrates' Court. When asked to show a valid ticket, it is alleged that you failed to do so and that you also failed to pay the appropriate fare due in accordance with the rules in force. This left the inspector no alternative but to report the incident. If you wish to make any further comment or representation please do so in writing or email as soon as possible. We are advised that the Rail Company sees no reason why this matter should not proceed as previously advised. An application for the issue of summons may now be made. If you wish to comment further before this matter proceeds. Please respond in writing or email within 14 days.”

Then I sent an email stating “Referring to the below and your second letter (Dated 02/12/2019), kindly note that I’m really sorry for any misunderstanding and I really do respect the rail company, please accept my apology. I really want to settle out of court and I’m ready to pay 100 £ (and that is higher than any ticket which is attached). Giving the fact that I never have any intention of travelling without having previously paid the correct fare. I am really don’t understand the situation and the inspector in the journey didn’t explain anything to me and didn’t give me any chance or ask me to pay the ticket again or any penalty, regardless of that all, please again accept my apology.”

Then they sent a letter to me stating that “Thank you for your further letter in respect of this case, we have noted your additional comments in response to our letter and the report of failing to show a valid rail ticket. It is always the traveller's responsibility to pay the correct fare due and to obtain a valid ticket before boarding any train where pre-purchase facilities are available to do so and it is the traveller's responsibility to show a valid rail ticket when asked. Where pre-purchase facilities are not available and any person boards a train without a valid ticket, it is always the responsibility of that passenger to declare the journey to on-train staff and pay the fare due immediately on boarding any train. We have fully evaluated your further comments and following re-assessment, we see no reason to change the view expressed in our earlier letter. There is no reason why this matter should not proceed as we have previously advised. An application for the issue of a summons may now be made and we will advise once any hearing date has been confirmed.”

Please help me, what shall I do? I’m completely lost. I want to settle this thing out of the court, i just want to end this.

 

[A.h]

Please help me, what shall I do? I’m completely lost. I want to settle this thing out of the court, i just want to end this.

 

[furlong]

You'll need to give us some more precise details I think. These types of tickets can be confusing both for passengers and staff.

How much did you pay? What exact ticket type(s)? How exactly did you present your ticket - did you use a mobile app - if so, exactly which one - the Omio application? Android or iPhone?

(I don't want to raise your hopes, but we have seen examples here where staff have incorrectly rejected perfectly valid tickets. So the first thing is to try to work out - as a matter of fact - whether or not your ticket was valid for your journey.)

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So to summarise, you travelled without a valid ticket and the train company are looking to prosecute

 

[A.h]

the tickets are uploaded , i used Omio mobile application

 

[A.h]

I mistakenly activated it the day before for the return journey to Bristol, I didn't realize that and it doesn't make any sense, but the inspector considered it as invalid without any explanation to me and without any asking for any penalty or paying the ticket again, also she didn't tell me about the situation.

 

[ainsworth74]

So to be clear it was on the return leg of your journey when you were going back to Derby that you had this issue?

 

[A.h]

the return journey was to bristol not derby

 

[Western Sunset]

I read it that the OP was travelling out from Bristol to Derby; returning to Bristol the following day. It was on the return leg to Bristol that their ticket was checked and found to have been (inadvertently) activated the previous day.

Common sense would suggest that the OP made a simple error in activating the ticket too soon. After all, why would they be returning again to Bristol? Is everyone presumed guilty of fraudulent travel after making such a mistake nowadays?

Maybe I'm too trusting.....

 

[furlong]

Has anyone here got direct experience of how this particular app handles tickets valid more than one day?

 

[Haywain]

This appears to be an m-ticket which requires activation and is greyed out as being no longer valid after the day when it has been activated. As the return portion of the ticket is valid for one calendar month it makes no difference to the actual validity of the ticket as break of journey (for example) is still permitted.

 

[furlong]

- The return portion of your ticket is valid for a month (plus an extra day!), as the picture shows - valid from 28 Sep to 28 Oct.

- Some apps are known to incorrectly show tickets as invalid prematurely. (But staff are supposed to be aware of that and check with the passenger.)

The question to consider is, how does the company intend to substantiate its claim that it was "showing as already used"?
If it proceeded to court, it might be necessary to reproduce what happened on the app and submit that as evidence, but hopefully you can persuade the prosecution to investigate this themselves and, if it's indeed a design flaw with the app, drop the case.

 

[furlong]

This appears to be an m-ticket which requires activation and is greyed out as being no longer valid after the day when it has been activated. As the return portion of the ticket is valid for one calendar month it makes no difference to the actual validity of the ticket as break of journey (for example) is still permitted.

Exactly, it is looking increasingly like the other threads we've had caused by staff and prosecution departments seemingly being unaware of this.

 

[gray1404]

The Train Manager or RPI actually called the OPs phone to check it was their phone number? The cheek and nerve of that! Besides, on passenger is ever required to give their phone number.

That aside, the OP had a valid ticket for the journey. They were using an Off Peak Return travelling on the return portion. This is valid for one calendar month and the return date can be any day within that time and does not need to be decided upon in advance. I do not believe that OP did anything wrong in activating it the day before and having a mobile ticket does not detract from the tickets validity. This is all PROVIDED the ticket hadn't been used (i.e. for actual travel) which it doesn't look like it has.

This would also mean that the Train Manager would not have accepted the ticket had break of journey occurred on the return leg. The Train Manager should have accepted the ticket on the basis that it is (as is visible in the screen shots) valid for one month (the return leg that is).

The letters sent by TIL are their usual standard worded letters they send to innocent people. The sooner that dreadful contractor is exposed and train operators stop using them the better. It is only a matter of time.

I would suggest the next step would be to write back to Transport Investigations stating that, in light of their most recent reply, you have taken advise on the matter (which you have by asking on this forum*) and now understand that you held a valid ticket for the journey. This is because you held an Off Peak Return and were using the return portion and this is valid for one month. The return leg had not been used previously for any travel and you therefore presented a valid ticket which should have been accepted by the Train Manager. I would then ask them to confirm that they therefore take no further action with regards to this as, now you understand you presented a valid ticket, any further action will be robustly defended.

If you would like to draft a reply then so post it here first so that others can check it for you. Good luck!

 

[furlong]

So I'd suggest focussing in on the phrase 'showing as already used, therefore was invalid'.
And argue it was not showing as already used - but simply showing as 'activated a previous day' which is a completely different thing, and (as you had not used it yet) the ticket remained valid.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The first letter talks about boarding a train with the intention of travelling without having previously paid the correct amount, and bringing a prosecution on a charge of "intent to avoid a fare". I would have thought that it is very clear that the OP did pay the correct amount and had no intention of avoiding a fare, notwithstanding the point about the return part of the ticket being valid for a month.

 

[najaB]

I'm in agreement that, based on the evidence presented, the OP has done nothing wrong. The return portion of an Off Peak return is valid for 30 days.

 

[A.h]

I'm in agreement that, based on the evidence presented, the OP has done nothing wrong. The return portion of an Off Peak return is valid for 30 days.

but, I also called them today morning, asking why I am in this situation, they told me how we can know that you didn't use the ticket before, I told them it doesn't make any sense to use it before. then the lady asked me if she can write that I will respond again via email, I said yes, then she said bye-bye and literally close the line.

 

[ainsworth74]

they told me how we can know that you didn't use the ticket before

This is of course a totally spurious argument because it's not different to how they have no real way of knowing (yes it might be possible if it's been through a barrier but broadly) whether or not a paper ticket has been used before.

 

[Western Sunset]

There seems to be something rotten about the whole TIL set-up.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would suggest replying to TIL along the lines of stating that your ticket was unused at the time it was inspected and had been activated in error previously. Something which makes no difference to it's validity as the ticket remains valid for a return up to a month later. Furthermore it is impossible for you to have already used the ticket as you used the day after your outward journey (see itinerary/seat reservations) and you were staying in Derby (include copy of hotel reservation if you've got one) therefore it would be extremely improbable for you to have been reusing the ticket as they appear to be suggesting.

Unfortunately TIL are, to be blunt, an outfit with penchant for bringing dodgy prosecutions and failing to listen to reason. It's a stain on the railway industry that any TOC stoops to using their services.

 

[Western Sunset]

The only train the OP could've got from Bristol - Derby on Sunday morning (if they' decided to do the journey twice), was the 0915 off Temple Meads, into Derby at 1136. Nobody in their right minds (unless an enthusiast after Cl.220/1 mileage) would do such a trip..........

 

[gray1404]

And to think that the founder and owner of Transport Investigations Limited is an ex BR man who entered service into Network South East! Shame!

She really should not be asking you questions such as that. It is for them to prove you have used the ticket before, not for you to prove that you haven't. The fact is, at the time of inspection you presented an unused (return portion) and totally valid ticket. The Train Manager should not have reported you and had no basis for taking note of your personal details. I do wonder if there is a certain female Train Manager who is too "reporting happy" as there have been a few accounts of similar conduct in terms of inspection, taking details and issuing a zero excess. They have no evidence of previous ticket actual use and it is innocent until proven guilty (not guilty until proven innocent, which is the approach the lady on the phone was taking).

My concern now, given what a corrupt company Transport Investigations Limited are, is that they will reply offering you an out of court settlement for a set amount and ask you to pay this within so many days to close the matter. If they do this, please, do not pay it. You held a valid ticket and they are at fault here (as are Cross Country for taking your details). Rather, write back to them as instructed above but post of a draft copy of your letter here first.

I would also suggest at this point, making a formal complaint to Cross Country Customer Relations. If their reply is not acceptable ask for a Senior Manager to review your case. At that point you could then appeal to the Rail Ombudsman if their reply is still unsatisfactory. I say this because Cross Country could instruct Transport Investigations to drop this matter. If you need any help writing such a letter/email and what evidence to include, just ask.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

If your phone is a modern smart phone, and GPS is activated it will have a record of exactly where and when you went and will show you couldn't have used the ticket previously.

I have used this before to prove I wasn't somewhere a car parking ticket said I was.

It may be worth considering screen shotting your activity map for the two dates in question, this will prove without doubt were you where or weren't.

 

[SteveM70]

If your phone is a modern smart phone, and GPS is activated it will have a record of exactly where and when you went and will show you couldn't have used the ticket previously.

I have used this before to prove I wasn't somewhere a car parking ticket said I was.

It may be worth considering screen shotting your activity map for the two dates in question, this will prove without doubt were you where or weren't.

In addition to this do you have any card purchase records or till receipts that prove where you were?

 

[najaB]

If your phone is a modern smart phone, and GPS is activated it will have a record of exactly where and when you went and will show you couldn't have used the ticket previously.

In addition to this do you have any card purchase records or till receipts that prove where you were?

While there's no harm in collecting this data, the OP's main focus should be on getting TIL to recognise that their ticket was, in fact, perfectly valid.

It may be worth considering screen shotting your activity map for the two dates in question, this will prove without doubt were you where or weren't.

As an aside, it does no such thing. All it proves "without doubt" is where the phone believed it was. I don't have it to hand at the moment to post, but I've once had my phone show that I was "without a doubt" in the United States of America which caused some confusion because at the time I thought I was sitting in my living room in Dundee. Equally confusing was the fact that, some 20 minutes later, I was "without a doubt" back in the UK.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

While there's no harm in collecting this data, the OP's main focus should be on getting TIL to recognise that their ticket was, in fact, perfectly valid.
As an aside, it does no such thing. All it proves "without doubt" is where the phone believed it was. I don't have it to hand at the moment to post, but I've once had my phone show that I was "without a doubt" in the United States of America which caused some confusion because at the time I thought I was sitting in my living room in Dundee.

As I said if GPS is activated, which possibly yours wasn't from what you say as if the battery is low sometimes it auto switches off to save battery, if it isn't then you get crazy results like yours did.

It is for them to prove the ticket has has being used previously and if the OP has some mitigating evidence such as GPS tracking I would suggest it would be dropped pretty quickly and would be excellent mitigation in a court situation. and like I said a 24 hour map of where had been and hadnt been was enough to have a parking ticket dropped as a camera as it happened had missed me leaving and thought I was still there when I was actually hundreds of miles away.

 

[najaB]

As I said if GPS is activated, which possibly yours wasn't from what you say as if the battery is low sometimes it auto switches off to save battery, if it isn't then you get crazy results like yours did.

Nope. Reasonable guess though. It was actually because the phone (for reasons known only to itself) decided to switch to IP-geolocation rather than GPS and I was connected to a VPN tunnel (I had six or seven satellite GPS lock at the time).

As I said, location history only shows you where the phone though it was. It doesn't prove anything.

 

[Welby]

And to think that the founder and owner of Transport Investigations Limited is an ex BR man who entered service into Network South East! Shame!

She really should not be asking you questions such as that. It is for them to prove you have used the ticket before, not for you to prove that you haven't. The fact is, at the time of inspection you presented an unused (return portion) and totally valid ticket. The Train Manager should not have reported you and had no basis for taking note of your personal details. I do wonder if there is a certain female Train Manager who is too "reporting happy" as there have been a few accounts of similar conduct in terms of inspection, taking details and issuing a zero excess. They have no evidence of previous ticket actual use and it is innocent until proven guilty (not guilty until proven innocent, which is the approach the lady on the phone was taking).

My concern now, given what a corrupt company Transport Investigations Limited are, is that they will reply offering you an out of court settlement for a set amount and ask you to pay this within so many days to close the matter. If they do this, please, do not pay it. You held a valid ticket and they are at fault here (as are Cross Country for taking your details). Rather, write back to them as instructed above but post of a draft copy of your letter here first.

I would also suggest at this point, making a formal complaint to Cross Country Customer Relations. If their reply is not acceptable ask for a Senior Manager to review your case. At that point you could then appeal to the Rail Ombudsman if their reply is still unsatisfactory. I say this because Cross Country could instruct Transport Investigations to drop this matter. If you need any help writing such a letter/email and what evidence to include, just ask.

Mr De Rose was on the railway as a RPI back in BR days, he was known locally as a person to avoid confrontation with.

 

[jon0844]

Nope. Reasonable guess though. It was actually because the phone (for reasons known only to itself) decided to switch to IP-geolocation rather than GPS and I was connected to a VPN tunnel (I had six or seven satellite GPS lock at the time).

As I said, location history only shows you where the phone though it was. It doesn't prove anything.

That's not really a very common scenario then. Of course a phone log can never be considered 100% accurate (after all you may not have had the phone with you, or someone else took it somewhere to give you a false alibi) but there are other things that might help, such as payments for goods, time stamped photos you took in places and so on.

In any case, if you can use a ticket for a month then it will be interesting to see how the industry interprets the activation of a ticket versus the actual usage in terms of whether it is valid or not.