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ainsworth74

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The industry needs to drop (and should never have adopted) m-tickets ASAP. It is causing not insignificant reputational damage both to the industry at large and to the very idea of e-ticketing which is a crying shame as e-tickets are actually very well implemented along the lines that appear to have been common on the Continent for quite a while now. It's only UK TOCs, as far as I'm aware, that went down the mad m-ticket route which has then led to these sorts of issues.

In any event the OP appears not to have returned and our continuing discussion on this topic is not particularly helpful to them! I suggest anyone wishing to comment further on the terribly flawed m-ticket system does so on this recently started thread here. To the OP @A.h if you do require further assistance please do let us know via the Report button at the bottom of this post or the "Contact Us" button at the bottom of every page and we will re-open the thread so you can get more advice.
 
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ainsworth74

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The OP @A.h has returned and asked for further assistance with the following message:

A.h said:
I have to appear to the court on 19th of March, and TIL just sent the letter last Friday, i dont have time and i dont Know what shall i do. please help me

Please ensure that your contributions are focused on assisting the OP not on any ancillary issues around e-tickets/m-tickets or any other aspect of ticketing. If anyone wishes to discuss things not directly relevant to the OP then please feel free to do so on a new thread.
 

A.h

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I have to appear to the court on 19th of March, and TIL just sent the letter last Friday, i dont have time and i dont Know what shall i do. please help me.

Also why TIL sending me the letter to go to the Court, Is it the Court responsibility to send me the letter.
The letter without any stamps or any names of the authorised officer of the court, only his signature
 

Haywain

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I have to appear to the court on 19th of March, and TIL just sent the letter last Friday, i dont have time and i dont Know what shall i do. please help me.

Also why TIL sending me the letter to go to the Court, Is it the Court responsibility to send me the letter.
The letter without any stamps or any names of the authorised officer of the court, only his signature
Could you post a copy of the letter here with personal details redacted? That will make it easier to provide advice.
 

A.h

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you are hereby summoned to appear on 19/03/2020
before Derby magistrates court at the court house to answer the following information laid today:

that you on xx monthxx 2019 between derby and Bristol temple meads did travel upon a cross country railway service without having previously paid the fare of xx and with intent to avoid payment thereof

contrary to S.5 (3) (a) of the regulation of railways Act 1889 as amended by section 84 (2) of the transport Act 1962 and section 18 of the British Railways Act 1970.
Information laid by: Transportation Investigation Ltd. Prosecutions Departement 1 stations Approach March Cambridgeshire, PE15 8sJ

Date: xx Autorised officer of the Court : his/her signature (without a name)
 

A.h

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you are hereby summoned to appear on 19/03/2020
before Derby magistrates court at the court house to answer the following information laid today:

that you on xx monthxx 2019 between derby and Bristol temple meads did travel upon a cross country railway service without having previously paid the fare of xx and with intent to avoid payment thereof

contrary to S.5 (3) (a) of the regulation of railways Act 1889 as amended by section 84 (2) of the transport Act 1962 and section 18 of the British Railways Act 1970.
Information laid by: Transportation Investigation Ltd. Prosecutions Departement 1 stations Approach March Cambridgeshire, PE15 8sJ

Date: xx Autorised officer of the Court : his/her signature (without a name)
this is part of a big letter but all of these came from TIL
 

Llanigraham

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I have to appear to the court on 19th of March, and TIL just sent the letter last Friday, i dont have time and i dont Know what shall i do. please help me.

Also why TIL sending me the letter to go to the Court, Is it the Court responsibility to send me the letter.
The letter without any stamps or any names of the authorised officer of the court, only his signature

Sorry, but you are going to have to make time to appear at Court. If you do not then I suspect you will be found guilty in your absence, you will be fined, and it could get much worse.
If you do attend, then you need to talk to a Court Official and they will explain what is expected of you. You can also ask to speak to the Duty Solicitor who will also explain things.

you are hereby summoned to appear on 19/03/2020
before Derby magistrates court at the court house to answer the following information laid today:

that you on xx monthxx 2019 between derby and Bristol temple meads did travel upon a cross country railway service without having previously paid the fare of xx and with intent to avoid payment thereof

contrary to S.5 (3) (a) of the regulation of railways Act 1889 as amended by section 84 (2) of the transport Act 1962 and section 18 of the British Railways Act 1970.
Information laid by: Transportation Investigation Ltd. Prosecutions Departement 1 stations Approach March Cambridgeshire, PE15 8sJ

Date: xx Autorised officer of the Court : his/her signature (without a name)

That appears to be a normal Summons, issued correctly by the Prosecuting body, telling you that they have issued the paperwork to the Court (laid today) and exactly like I used to issue when I did a similar job (not for the railway).
They are not required to give their name, just a signature.
 

6Gman

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you are hereby summoned to appear on 19/03/2020
before Derby magistrates court at the court house to answer the following information laid today:

that you on xx monthxx 2019 between derby and Bristol temple meads did travel upon a cross country railway service without having previously paid the fare of xx and with intent to avoid payment thereof

contrary to S.5 (3) (a) of the regulation of railways Act 1889 as amended by section 84 (2) of the transport Act 1962 and section 18 of the British Railways Act 1970.
Information laid by: Transportation Investigation Ltd. Prosecutions Departement 1 stations Approach March Cambridgeshire, PE15 8sJ

Date: xx Autorised officer of the Court : his/her signature (without a name)

I would advise approaching a solicitor for legal advice.

Though the whole thing seems - at face value - very heavy handed on the part of XC/TIL.
 

A.h

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but, is it supposed to be delivered by TIL not the Court??
 

6Gman

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but, is it supposed to be delivered by TIL not the Court??

I really don't think that's important at the moment. If you want to avoid conviction then I really do think you need proper legal advice.

(You can often get initial legal advice for nothing, or for a modest fee.)
 

WesternLancer

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are you a student, or a trade union member? Your students union (or trade union) may have a free legal advice service that can help you with this now, given the timescale is short - check ASAP, otherwise you need to go to a Citizens Advice Bureau urgently, or ring round solicitors to see if you can find one that can give you initial free or low cost advice (A CAB may be a good starting point for lists of local solicitors who do this).
 

ainsworth74

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otherwise you need to go to a Citizens Advice Bureau urgently

This is outside of the remit of CAB unless they have a specific project with a criminal law solicitor (and I would be very surprised to find many, if any, that do and even then it's unlikely to be anything more than a free initial consultation with any further work chargeable). The generic CAB service deals with civil matters only so would not be able to assist. And whilst they may have a list of local solicitors it would be far quicker to use the Law Society website's search function (see here) which will provide a list of firms that may be able to assist and then ring around and ask if they do an initial consultation for free.
 

Fare-Cop

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but, is it supposed to be delivered by TIL not the Court??

Yes, the Summons will have been authorised by the Court and then returned to TIL, who will have served it on your declared address by Royal Mail. That is perfectly normal practice

It seems to me that you definitely must make time to see a solicitor, preferably one who is known at Derby Magistrates Court and who specialises in criminal matters. If you do not live locally to Derby, you should contact a reputable Law firm who have someone who is experienced in dealing with criminal allegations in the Magistrates Courts.

Quite often a brief appointment can be arranged quickly and at very low cost, there are some firms who specialise in Railway Fare evasion matters, but it is beyond the remit of this forum to advertise.

If you put 'railway fare evasion, solicitor required' into Google, this will produce good contacts.

Don't ignore the Summons, if you do it is almost certain to result in the matter being proven in your absence and a criminal conviction being recorded against your name, plus a substantial financial penalty imposed on you.
 

some bloke

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If you can get TIL to drop the case, you don't have to go to court. It isn't clear that they have a good case for what they're alleging - that you actually intended to avoid a fare.

Could you please clarify what you did after your conversation with TIL on December 12?

the lady asked me if she can write that I will respond again via email, I said yes

People on here made suggestions for what you could write. Did you ask TIL in writing to explain:

a) why the ticket is not valid if it isn't activated on the same day - ie where this is stated in formal conditions?

b) what evidence they have for intent to avoid a fare, as it would be strange if you had done that journey more than once in such a short time?

Would you like to upload any letter/s you have written to them, and photos of all the paperwork which you have now been sent, with identifying details removed?

Also, where on the journey to Bristol did you meet the inspector? Since the ticket is valid for use over several weeks in stages, prosecution for "intent" might be even more ridiculous if the inspector came after the first station stop. That's because after activating the ticket the first day, you were entitled to travel on that day and then, on the next day, use the ticket for the next part of the journey.
 
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A.h

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can anyone help me drafting a letter to TIL asking for mediation.
 

A.h

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Dear Sir/Madam,


Good Afternoon,


Referring to your letter (dated xxxxx), Kindly note the following:


I would like to remedy this situation and avoid it being escalated further (out of the court) by way of an administrative settlement. I would like to offer payment of the outstanding fare and to cover any additional administrative/prosecution costs you have incurred.
 

Rich McLean

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Dear Sir/Madam,


Good Afternoon,


Referring to your letter (dated xxxxx), Kindly note the following:


I would like to remedy this situation and avoid it being escalated further (out of the court) by way of an administrative settlement. I would like to offer payment of the outstanding fare and to cover any additional administrative/prosecution costs you have incurred.

He's previouly tried to keep it out of court but they have declined. Best bet would be to approach the TIL Prosecutioner at court before the hearing starts and attempt to settle it then.
 

A.h

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He's previouly tried to keep it out of court but they have declined. Best bet would be to approach the TIL Prosecutioner at court before the hearing starts and attempt to settle it then.
i have to keep trying before the hearing, any advice if I want to go their office in Cambridge
 

Darandio

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i have to keep trying before the hearing, any advice if I want to go their office in Cambridge

I don't even think it's in Cambridge? Regardless, rocking up at their head office isn't a good idea.
 

some bloke

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Have you tried this, and added that you are not clear how it is likely that someone would have used the ticket twice in such a short period?

I am unable to find clear evidence that it is only valid if activated on the day the journey is started, either in the National Rail Conditions of Travel or in Omio's terms and conditions
(https://www.omio.co.uk/terms-of-use).

I've not been able to find any terms on conditions, either in the National Rail Conditions of Travel, nor the omio terms and conditions, that required me to validate the ticket only on the day of travel.
 

WesternLancer

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Isn't the issue here really that the OP's 1st language is not English (apols to Op if I have concluded this wrong), thus their written English is not always 100% clear, plus they are not really that au fait with the ins and outs of the UK ticketing system in the way many of us who comment on here are.

Would it not be poss for us to draft a clear written response that the OP could cut and paste, and which would be written in the sort of language that the rail way industry would understand, and which could hopefully find its way to XC/TIL/ the actual prosecutor with a view to them accepting an out of court settlement? Although reviewing the thread it might seem that the ticket was probably valid (if inadvertently 'enacted' electronically) and thus no extra funds are in fact owed to the railway?

If the OP lives in Bristol, just the cost of going to Derby to try and represent themself would be a hefty hit if they are on a low income. If they are student on a study visa for example, they may be worried that being found guilty of this would endanger their visa status too - which is harsh.

A.H. you may be able to clarify some of this if you wish to do so.
 

A.h

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Isn't the issue here really that the OP's 1st language is not English (apols to Op if I have concluded this wrong), thus their written English is not always 100% clear, plus they are not really that au fait with the ins and outs of the UK ticketing system in the way many of us who comment on here are.

Would it not be poss for us to draft a clear written response that the OP could cut and paste, and which would be written in the sort of language that the rail way industry would understand, and which could hopefully find its way to XC/TIL/ the actual prosecutor with a view to them accepting an out of court settlement? Although reviewing the thread it might seem that the ticket was probably valid (if inadvertently 'enacted' electronically) and thus no extra funds are in fact owed to the railway?

If the OP lives in Bristol, just the cost of going to Derby to try and represent themself would be a hefty hit if they are on a low income. If they are student on a study visa for example, they may be worried that being found guilty of this would endanger their visa status too - which is harsh.

A.H. you may be able to clarify some of this if you wish to do so.
Yes please, can anyone draft me a good letter as the last chance before Court hearing.
 

some bloke

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I suggest you contact Omio, saying

"I have received a summons to a court hearing on 19 March for intent to avoid a fare. I activated the return portion of my ticket on 28 September 2019, and used it on 29 September 2019. It does not seem right that the ticket would be invalid, since it was supposed to be valid for a month.

If there is a problem with the ticketing system, I would be grateful if you could inform Ms/Mr XXX of Transport Investigations Limited, at [email protected].

As the hearing is on 19 March and some discussion may be needed, I would be grateful for a reply by 12 March."

You can upload the images of the ticket and booking details.

https://help.omio.com/hc/en-us/requests/new

Then send that message to TIL, with [address the person with "Dear Ms/Mr XXX" if one of the letters had a name]

"I have asked Omio to confirm whether there is a problem with the display of the ticket. I would be grateful if you could check with them whether the ticket was valid.

I believed it was valid because I did not see that it said "expired"
[or "because the screen seemed to mean that it was valid until 28 October" or whatever your reason was].

The screen said "Until 28 Oct 2019" - please see the attached image.

I do not see how it is likely that I could have used the ticket already, as there would have been hardly any time to rush back to Bristol and then to Derby again. As there is no dispute that I paid for the ticket, please disclose any evidence that I intended to avoid a fare.

Given the timescale, I would be grateful for a reply by 12 March."
 
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38Cto15E

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A,.h
If all your efforts fail you may well have to go to Derby court, but do not despair.

Could you not telephone the court and see what the situation is for having the Duty Solicitor represent you on the day, after all, they may be very busy with other defendants and you do not want the case adjourning.
You appear to have a very good case to me and should the solicitor secure a not guilty verdict I believe that you may be awarded costs.

Board Members, Does Barry Doe read these posts, he could certainly help. www.barrydoe.co.uk
 

some bloke

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- Some apps are known to incorrectly show tickets as invalid prematurely. (But staff are supposed to be aware of that and check with the passenger.)
Does anyone have an example of that information given to staff, or other written information about the problem, which @A.h could send to TIL?
 

Llanigraham

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A,.h
If all your efforts fail you may well have to go to Derby court, but do not despair.

Could you not telephone the court and see what the situation is for having the Duty Solicitor represent you on the day, after all, they may be very busy with other defendants and you do not want the case adjourning.
You appear to have a very good case to me and should the solicitor secure a not guilty verdict I believe that you may be awarded costs.

Board Members, Does Barry Doe read these posts, he could certainly help. www.barrydoe.co.uk
The Duty Solicitor will only represent someone whilst they are present at the Court, and not for an absent accused. The OP is going to have to attend.

And frankly I suspect that getting Omnio involved now is too late. Whilst getting the information from them might help, the Summons has been issued, and although it can be stopped by the Prosecution I really think this is too late.
 

some bloke

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You could send the messages to CrossCountry, adding:

"Please confirm Cross-Country's view on the validity of the ticket. I would be grateful for a reply by 12 March."
(the website says they may take 10 days)

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/customer-service/contact-us/general-enquiries


And you can send the same messages to Transport Focus, asking "Would Transport Focus be willing to help clarify the position to TIL?"
https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/contact/general

They sometimes act when prosecution is threatened:

"CrossCountry accepted the evidence from TF, so TIL withdrew the matter."
https://www.railfuture.org.uk/DL2027

"TF contacted the Rail Delivery Group. ...GWR’s prosecutions team accepted the evidence and closed the case."
https://www.railfuture.org.uk/DL2184
 
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