Inverness/Aberdeen EC Only - Query?

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reb0118

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Was advising a few passengers the other day about travel to Inverness [INV] & Aberdeen [ABD] from Edinburgh [EDB]. The passengers were American and they were thinking about travelling to Aberdeen by train, hiring a car there and heading to Inverness before returning from there to Edinburgh by train.

I suggested various options for them but it got me thinking of this scenario (which I did not suggest however!):-

As Aberdeen is on a permitted route between Edinburgh & Inverness would it be permitted to travel from EDB to ABD on an East Coast train, making your own way between ABD & INV, before returning from INV to EDB on the Highland Chieftain (EC service) on an EC only EDB - INV return?
 
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marks87

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No, because if it's "EC Only" then you can't get to Inverness from Aberdeen.
 

reb0118

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No, because if it's "EC Only" then you can't get to Inverness from Aberdeen

True, but is that the fault of the passenger that the operator dosn't provide a service for part of the way? Remember you are making your own way from ABD to INV - which could mean by buying a ticket and travelling with ScotRail.


That used to be the case but there is a route "Aviemore" & a route "any permitted" and Aberdeen is permitted.
 

Failed Unit

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Would it really be an issue? As there are so few east coast services you would probably go for AP tickets anyway.
 

MarkyMarkD

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I don't agree with marks87.

EDB-ABD is on a valid route from EDB-INV. EDB-ABD is possible on an EC train, as is INV-EDB.

Providing that the ticket type permits Break of Journey (which they do, other than EC Advances), I cannot see why this ticket wouldn't allow the planned itinerary.
 

marks87

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I don't agree with marks87.

EDB-ABD is on a valid route from EDB-INV. EDB-ABD is possible on an EC train, as is INV-EDB.

Providing that the ticket type permits Break of Journey (which they do, other than EC Advances), I cannot see why this ticket wouldn't allow the planned itinerary.
The ticket could also be routed Aviemore, which would prohibit going via Aberdeen.

In fact, I strongly suspect it is, because the EC fare doesn't show up when specifying via Aberdeen.
 

MarkyMarkD

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No, the route is just "EC ONLY".

The EC only fare obviously won't come up on an online search "via Aberdeen" because the search engines assume you want to cover the full journey, which cannot be completed on EC only. But if you are happy to make part of the journey by car, breaking your journey at Aberdeen, that "EC only" ticket should be valid.

That's not to say that it won't be surprising to an EC guard on a train with destination Aberdeen.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Common consensus tends to be that it would only be valid by routes wholly operated by EC, however, I can find no justification for that. Infact, looking at it with fresh eyes, I think it would be valid on EC services to Aberdeen.
 

marks87

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But if you are happy to make part of the journey by car, breaking your journey at Aberdeen, that "EC only" ticket should be valid.
Surely by that logic you can use a ticket to Kyle of Lochalsh to get to Mallaig, because you can use your car to cross Loch Hurn and Loch Alsh for the last bit.

I know there's a difference there, because via Aberdeen is a valid route for Inverness to Edinburgh, but that's only on an "Any Permitted" ticket, not "EC Only".

Perhaps a better example is that I can't use the recent Daily Record/ScotRail £19 offer to go from Glasgow to Dumfries via Gretna, because despite being a valid route, it requires the use of Virgin or TPE to get to Carlisle.
 

yorkie

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No, because if it's "EC Only" then you can't get to Inverness from Aberdeen.
You seem to answer with some authority, is that the case? Or is it just a guess?

I can't see any reason why this would not be permitted.

- Is the customer on a permitted route? Yes
- Is the customer allowed to finish short? Yes
- Is there any rule that prevents it? No
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The ticket could also be routed Aviemore, which would prohibit going via Aberdeen.
There is a Route Aviemore fare, but that is not the fare being discussed!
In fact, I strongly suspect it is, because the EC fare doesn't show up when specifying via Aberdeen.
Of course it won't, because EC do not operate between Aberdeen and Inverness, and it is not possible to book a ticket using an online booking system on an itinerary that finishes 'short'.

By your logic, a customer holding a York-London GC Only ticket could not use it between Doncaster-London on GC.

But your logic has to be based on the actual rules otherwise it's just opinion, which is fine, but it's not made clear and people could read your posts as presenting facts.
 
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Paul Kelly

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Perhaps a better example is that I can't use the recent Daily Record/ScotRail £19 offer to go from Glasgow to Dumfries via Gretna, because despite being a valid route, it requires the use of Virgin or TPE to get to Carlisle.

Do these special tickets allow break of journey? If they do (as the EC ONLY Edinburgh-Inverness SVR and SSR do), I don't see why you couldn't use them for the Carlisle to Gretna leg - unless it was one of the trains that starts from Newcastle, which might in some circumstances be considered to be operated by Northern - but that's for another thread ;)

A similar question that has been raised in the past is whether you could use a York to London Terminals Grand Central Only ticket on a Grand Central West Riding service from Doncaster to King's Cross, despite the fact that it's impossible to get from York to Doncaster using Grand Central.
As yorkie has already said above!
 
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marks87

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You seem to answer with some authority, is that the case? Or is it just a guess?

I can't see any reason why this would not be permitted.

- Is the customer on a permitted route? Yes
- Is the customer allowed to finish short? Yes
- Is there any rule that prevents it? No
Surely the routing of the ticket prevents it?

Additionally, when you select "via Aberdeen" on the East Coast booking site, it doesn't provide the "EC Only" fare - the only return tickets are Off-peak and Anytime.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I can't see any reason why this would not be permitted.
Just the common sense interpretaion of an EC-only ticket being used to a destination where no EC trains go, on that route.

I don't believe there can be a definitive answer to this question. Where could such a definitive answer be found?

In practice, my guess is that a passenger will stand a good chance of being challenged en route, but that its likely that the challenge would be the constructive suggestion that perhaps the passenger had inadvertetly boarded the wrong train.
 

yorkie

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Surely the routing of the ticket prevents it?
It's valid on all permitted routes but only on East Coast trains. That is what the restriction says, is it not? In which case, please tell me which routes are permitted, and which of these routes are operated by East Coast? ;)
Additionally, when you select "via Aberdeen" on the East Coast booking site, it doesn't provide the "EC Only" fare - the only return tickets are Off-peak and Anytime.
But that's because such a request will produce a journey itinerary not just from Edinburgh to Aberdeen, but also to Inverness, the last part is not required.

I won't be able to get a London to Melton Mowbray itinerary to put me via Corby on a Sunday, will I? But the ticket would be valid to Corby!

Unless booking sites allow an itinerary to be given for a ticket starting or finishing short (where permitted), they will not show journeys that cannot be completed to the destination, irrespective of validity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is what WebTIS has to say, with my bold, which I think should clear it up:
But surely you've quoted the Route Aviemore Off Peak Return.

That is not the ticket suggested, and that ticket is not permitted via Aberdeen (a change of route excess in one direction would be required to go outward via Aberdeen).

The ticket suggested by reb0118 is Route EC Only.

I'm looking on the EC site and there is nothing mentioning Aviemore on the EC Only ticket. It's a different route restriction.
 
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Paul Kelly

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Unless booking sites allow an itinerary to be given for a ticket starting or finishing short (where permitted), they will not show journeys that cannot be completed to the destination, irrespective of validity.

I don't think that's going to happen any time soon, since the electronic data feed that ATOC supply to the booking engines does not contain any information on whether off-peak tickets have break of journey restrictions or not; that is only in the human-readable versions of the restrictions!
 

marks87

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But surely you've quoted the Route Aviemore Off Peak Return.
Apologies; I thought the ticket was being displayed in the matrix, but it wasn't. I've deleted that post.

I still say that if a ticket is routed "<operator> only" then it can only be used on a route that allows you to complete the journey using that operator. As I'm sure most of us know, the exact wording of the relevant break of journey restriction is:

You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel on Off-Peak tickets...

I'd argue that Aberdeen isn't an intermediate station from Edinburgh to Inverness on a route that is "EC only", because no such route exists.
 

yorkie

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And you also think that "GC Only" York-London cannot be used Doncaster-London, right?
 

marks87

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From the wording of the restriction, yes, because Doncaster isn't an intermediate station on any Grand Central route from York to London.
 

jkdd77

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From the wording of the restriction, yes, because Doncaster isn't an intermediate station on any Grand Central route from York to London.

But there is no restriction at all on break of journey on that flow, or on the EC only flexible Anytime tickets; the wording on the National Rail website is merely guidance.

The permitted "routes of travel" are determined by the Routeing Guide, and, in both cases, the passenger is clearly travelling on a valid route. Notwithstanding that it is impossible to complete the journey on the same ticket, the passenger may wish either to "finish short" at an intermediate station or to buy a separate ticket for the remainder of the journey (subject to the conditions of NRCOC 19).

With regard to the routeing, NRCOC 13 states:
The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide

In this case, 13(a)(iii) applies, so the routeing is permitted, subject to the TOC-only restriction and to any BoJ restrictions (not applicable here).
 

HowMuch?

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... I can't use the recent Daily Record/ScotRail £19 offer to go from Glasgow to Dumfries via Gretna, because despite being a valid route, it requires the use of Virgin or TPE to get to Carlisle.

Im sur your example is correct, because this offer does seem a bit more restricted than Club55 was. But the issue isn't that you can't use Virgin or TPE (the offer is "all operators"). The problem is that offer says "any train journey in Scotland", and although there is an invisible word ("entirely") before "in" ..... well, it's ghost clearly has an efect - as in your example.
 

yorkie

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That example is not applicable/relevant anyway as it's not an example along the same lines as the scenario described by the OP. It is also incorrect as there is nothing in the terms & conditions that bars the use of Virgin or TPE.

York/Doncaster-London is a comparable scenario.

I admit that the Melton Mowbray/Corby-London scenario is not directly comparable as it's not a TOC specific example, but it is an example of a ticket that cannot be completed by that route on certain days, and it is the inability to complete the journey that is apparently what is (falsely, I believe) claimed to make it invalid.
 

calc7

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I believe that it is valid.

Similarly, I remember All Line Rover querying whether a Virgin Trns Only ticket Birmingham Stns - Rugby FDS/SDS is valid for Nuneaton - Rugby only (on a Virgin train) and the response was "yes".
 

HowMuch?

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As usual, the practical result no doubt depends on the human factor, and how "weird" the TM thinks your actions are.

I would guess (from my knowledge of people, not NCOC) that if an EC TM was used to seeing EC-Only Inverness tickets at Dundee, because the EC train to Aberdeen ran to on Inverness on some days but not others, then the reponse would be an apologetic "Oh, sorry sir, we don't run all the way today, I'm afraid you'll have to go back and get another train, or buy a Scotrail ticket from Aberdeen. So sorry for the inconvenience". And it wouldn't even occur to him to get the rule book out.

But if he had never seen one before, then there is a good chance of a rules debate.

Does't help with agreeing what the rules ARE, though!
 

hairyhandedfool

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It is quite simple if you look at the rules.

The Routeing Guide states that you can use any route shown with a ticket routed "any permitted". If the ticket has a route on it, you can only use routes which pass through the station named on the ticket. There is no station named in the route on an 'EC Only' ticket.

The NRCoC states that any restrictions to the use of one operators service will be noted on the ticket. No mention of changes to route availability.

If someone can point to a rule that would invalidate the ticket for the Aberdeen route I'm sure it would be appreciated by all.
 

IanD

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Surely by that logic you can use a ticket to Kyle of Lochalsh to get to Mallaig, because you can use your car to cross Loch Hurn and Loch Alsh for the last bit.

I thought you could do this due to an easement - and then return down the West highland line. It's been mentioned a few times on this forum and in the last couple of weeks.
 

marks87

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If someone can point to a rule that would invalidate the ticket for the Aberdeen route I'm sure it would be appreciated by all.
As I posted further up, my interpretation of the "restriction" on breaking your journey on an off-peak ticket, combined with the route being "EC Only" is what, in my opinion, invalidates it. Aberdeen is not an intermediate station between Edinburgh and Inverness when the route between those stations is "EC Only".

The general point I was making in my example still stands -- if I have a GLC-DMF ticket that's only valid on ScotRail, my view is that I can't use it via Gretna, because that relies on via Carlisle with Virgin or TPE.
 

John @ home

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my interpretation of the "restriction" on breaking your journey on an off-peak ticket, combined with the route being "EC Only" is what, in my opinion, invalidates it.
The Off-Peak Return EDINBURGH - INVERNESS route EC ONLY has Restriction 8E, which does not limit starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations.
Aberdeen is not an intermediate station between Edinburgh and Inverness when the route between those stations is "EC Only".
Edinburgh - Aberdeen - Inverness is a Permitted Route for a Edinburgh - Inverness jouney, as defined in Condition 13 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC). A passenger using a EDINBURGH - INVERNESS route EC ONLY return ticket to travel on EC trains from Edinburgh to Aberdeen, then from Inverness to Edinburgh is at all times travelling on a Permitted Route between the origin and the destination printed on the ticket by the route shown on the ticket.
if I have a GLC-DMF ticket that's only valid on ScotRail, my view is that I can't use it via Gretna, because that relies on via Carlisle with Virgin or TPE.
That's correct if the Restriction that the ticket is permitted on ScotRail trains only is shown on the ticket.
NRCoC Condition 10 said:
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf
 

marks87

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The Off-Peak Return EDINBURGH - INVERNESS route EC ONLY has Restriction 8E, which does not limit starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations.
Edinburgh - Aberdeen - Inverness is a Permitted Route for a Edinburgh - Inverness jouney, as defined in Condition 13 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC). A passenger using a EDINBURGH - INVERNESS route EC ONLY return ticket to travel on EC trains from Edinburgh to Aberdeen, then from Inverness to Edinburgh is at all times travelling on a Permitted Route between the origin and the destination printed on the ticket by the route shown on the ticket.
My point is that although via Aberdeen is a permitted route for an Edinburgh-Inverness "Any Permitted" ticket, the ticket in question isn't routed "Any Permitted"; it's routed "EC Only". And given that there is no "EC Only" route between Edinburgh and Inverness that goes via Aberdeen, I don't think Aberdeen can be considered an intermediate station.
That's correct if the Restriction that the ticket is permitted on ScotRail trains only is shown on the ticket.
That's at odds with what you're saying above.

Note that I deliberately said "via Gretna" and not "via Carlisle", because I'm making the same assumption as in the OP, that I've travelled to Gretna by some other means.
 
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