Inverness/Aberdeen EC Only - Query?

[hairyhandedfool]

A ticket routed 'EC Only' is valid by any permitted route (as no station is mentioned in the route), however it is only valid on East Coast services.

Thus, it is valid to Aberdeen as that is on a permitted route, however it can only be used on East Coast's services.

 

[marks87]

A ticket routed 'EC Only' is valid by any permitted route (as no station is mentioned in the route)...

As I was asked, is that in the rules?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There is no mention of TOC restrictions affecting routes in any document. Only a restriction on the services. Therefore a ticket with a TOC restriction is valid by direct trains, the shortest route or routes shown in the Routeing Guide, provided the passenger only uses the services of the TOC named.

 

[yorkie]

Surely by that logic you can use a ticket to Kyle of Lochalsh to get to Mallaig, because you can use your car to cross Loch Hurn and Loch Alsh for the last bit.

I thought you could do this due to an easement - and then return down the West highland line. It's been mentioned a few times on this forum and in the last couple of weeks.

Yes, Edinburgh to Kyle of Lochalsh is valid to Mallaig.

As I was asked, is that in the rules?

Yes, the rules have been posted in this thread and are being correctly interpreted by hairyhandedfool, reb0118, jkdd77, calc7, John @ Home, MarkyMarkD and myself, in my opinion. I also believe that if there is doubt, the interpretation that favours the customer should prevail. Also "If it doesn’t say on the Conditions Card (or in the NRCoC) that ticket holders cannot do something, then they can do it!"

You gave examples to back yourself up, but none of them were direct comparisons, and the Scotrail ticket did not have the restriction you claimed it had, and as for Kyle, there is an easement allowing some tickets to be used via Mallaig, but otherwise, it's not a valid comparison due to the lack of it being a permitted route (unless covered by the easement).

 

[John @ home]

My point is that although via Aberdeen is a permitted route for an Edinburgh-Inverness "Any Permitted" ticket, the ticket in question isn't routed "Any Permitted"; it's routed "EC Only". And given that there is no "EC Only" route between Edinburgh and Inverness that goes via Aberdeen, I don't think Aberdeen can be considered an intermediate station.

"The route you are entitled to take" is defined by NRCoC Condition 13.

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).
(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within the zone or zones shown on the ticket.
(c) Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the “permitted routes”.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf

Once the “permitted routes” are determined, they may be restricted in either of two ways listed in NRCoC.

Condition 10
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

Condition 13(d)
The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf

Finally, a route may be allowed by a (positive) Easement or (if it is neither a through train nor the shortest route) prohibited by a (negative) Easement. There are no Easements relevant to the validity of a EDINBURGH - INVERNESS route EC ONLY ticket from Edinburgh to Aberdeen.

A ticket routed 'EC Only' is valid by any permitted route (as no station is mentioned in the route), however it is only valid on East Coast services.

Thus, it is valid to Aberdeen as that is on a permitted route, however it can only be used on East Coast's services.

is that in the rules?

Yes. The relevant Rules are above.

if I have a GLC-DMF ticket that's only valid on ScotRail, my view is that I can't use it via Gretna, because that relies on via Carlisle with Virgin or TPE.

That's correct if the Restriction that the ticket is permitted on ScotRail trains only is shown on the ticket.

That's at odds with what you're saying above.

It's not at odds. A EDINBURGH - INVERNESS route ANY PERMITTED ticket is permitted via Aberdeen. A GLASGOW CEN/QST - DUMFRIES route ANY PERMITTED ticket is not permitted via Gretna.

 

[marks87]

You gave examples to back yourself up, but none of them were direct comparisons, and the Scotrail ticket did not have the restriction you claimed it had...

That was an error in my understanding of the offer, but the general point still stood.

It's not at odds. A EDINBURGH - INVERNESS route ANY PERMITTED ticket is permitted via Aberdeen. A GLASGOW CEN/QST - DUMFRIES route ANY PERMITTED ticket is not permitted via Gretna.

I used Glasgow because I thought it would avoid over-complicating things, but the actual example in my mind (because I've done it) is Dundee - Dumfries via Carlisle, route Any Permitted (I'd assumed that since it involves travelling through Glasgow anyway, starting at Glasgow would be the same, but seemingly it's not).

I'm now prepared to accept that the ticket is probably valid to Aberdeen, but that the conditions that cover it are ambiguous at best. Perhaps a distinction should be made between "route" and "valid operators"?

 

[John @ home]

Perhaps a distinction should be made between "route" and "valid operators"?

That distinction is made by the separate NRCoC Conditions 10 and 13(d), quoted above.

It is the train companies' choice that they continue to use a clunky ticketing system which prints both types of restriction in the area limited to 16 characters below the word "Route" on the ticket. In the Southern Daysave thread, thedbdiboy reported that

Work is finally underway to scope replacement of the legacy fares system architecture inherited from BR and which is still underpinned by 1980s mainframe processes (!), so hopefully by about 2015 this sort of thing can be avoided