Ipswich - Cambridge / Cambridge North via Ely validity

gingerheid

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Hello

Could anyone help me understand ticket validity between Ipswich and the Cambridge stations via Newmarket / Ely?

NRE doesn't appear to like travel on the route Ipswich - Ely - Cambridge; the fare is usually £5 more than via Newmarket.

NRE does seem to fully accept that travel on the route Ipswich - Ely - Cambridge North is valid, and offers the same fares as for Ipswich - Cambridge - Cambridge North. Cambridge North tickets are of course also valid to Cambridge and vice versa.

I appreciate that most of the time the question is almost academic, but it's a very practical question if you have an Ipswich Cambridge ticket and it's about 1600. To Cambridge North the 1600 via Ely is 91m but the 1620 via Cambridge is 116m, and the 1600 will also get you to Cambridge 5 mins earlier than the 1620.

Additionally, can this be avoided by simply always buying Cambridge North tickets? Would it be possible to turn up at Cambridge and buy a return from Cambridge North to Ipswich?

Thanks!
 
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yorkie

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NRE does seem to fully accept that travel on the route Ipswich - Ely - Cambridge North is valid..
In that case, NRE is wrong.

Ipswich to Cambridge North is valid via Ely, as Ely is an appropriate routeing point and it's traceable on map AP.

Trainsplit will offer it.
 

gingerheid

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In that case, NRE is wrong.

Ipswich to Cambridge North is valid via Ely, as Ely is an appropriate routeing point and it's traceable on map AP.

Trainsplit will offer it.

It offers Ipswich - Cambridge North via Ely.

It doesn't over Ipswich - Cambridge via Ely, so that's where the question arises.
 

kieron

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NRE doesn't appear to like travel on the route Ipswich - Ely - Cambridge; the fare is usually £5 more than via Newmarket.

NRE does seem to fully accept that travel on the route Ipswich - Ely - Cambridge North is valid, and offers the same fares as for Ipswich - Cambridge - Cambridge North. Cambridge North tickets are of course also valid to Cambridge and vice versa.
Cambridge is a routeing point (as is Ipswich). Cambridge North isn't, but instead is associated with Cambridge and Ely.

To go between the Cambridge and Ipswich routeing points, you use the EA map, which has a route via Newmarket, but not one via Ely.

To go between Ely and Ipswich, you use the AP map via either Cambridge or Soham.

Both Cambridge and Ely pass the "fare check" for Cambridge North for a Cambridge North-Ipswich ticket, which means you can go either way.

There are also rules around the shortest route, through trains and easements, but I don't think any of these make a difference here.
Additionally, can this be avoided by simply always buying Cambridge North tickets? Would it be possible to turn up at Cambridge and buy a return from Cambridge North to Ipswich?
I'm not familiar with the staff in Cambridge, but they would be able to sell that to you. As for using it from there, I notice that NRE doesn't like the idea of travelling from Cambridge North to Ipswich via Cambridge and Ely on a single ticket, but travel via Cambridge and Newmarket is fine.
 

Watershed

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Cambridge is a routeing point (as is Ipswich). Cambridge North isn't, but instead is associated with Cambridge and Ely.

To go between the Cambridge and Ipswich routeing points, you use the EA map, which has a route via Newmarket, but not one via Ely.

To go between Ely and Ipswich, you use the AP map via either Cambridge or Soham.

Both Cambridge and Ely pass the "fare check" for Cambridge North for a Cambridge North-Ipswich ticket, which means you can go either way.

There are also rules around the shortest route, through trains and easements, but I don't think any of these make a difference here.

I'm not familiar with the staff in Cambridge, but they would be able to sell that to you. As for using it from there, I notice that NRE doesn't like the idea of travelling from Cambridge North to Ipswich via Cambridge and Ely on a single ticket, but travel via Cambridge and Newmarket is fine.
This all seems correct to me. On a single/return ticket, you can't do Cambridge North-Cambridge-Ely-Ipswich, because you are relying on the mapped routes from Cambridge in order to do so. And these do not include travelling via Ely. It would be fine on a season ticket but I don't think that is what OP is looking to buy.

Ultimately, as the fares from Ipswich to Cambridge and Ely are very similar (to the extent that they could be equalised at the next fares round, should GA choose to do so), it would make sense for Ipswich to Cambridge to be mapped via Ely and vice versa.
 

Mcr Warrior

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As for using it from there, I notice that NRE doesn't like the idea of travelling from Cambridge North to Ipswich via Cambridge and Ely on a single ticket, but travel via Cambridge and Newmarket is fine.
Is the issue that travelling from Ipswich to Cambridge North via Ely, then via Cambridge, appears to require passing first through Cambridge North, then doubling back at Cambridge and in total an extra four and a half miles of travel?
 

Watershed

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Is the issue that travelling from Ipswich to Cambridge North via Ely, then via Cambridge, appears to require passing first through Cambridge North, then doubling back at Cambridge and in total an extra four and a half miles of travel?
The double back is not inherently an issue - there is a common misconception that doubling back is always banned. In fact it would be permitted in many cases, e.g. if travelling to Norwich or other points necessitating travel via Ely.

The issue here is that there is no mapped route from Cambridge to Ipswich via Ely.
 

arb

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Easement 700714 is a manual easement (which I assume means that journey planners don't apply it?) which states:
Easement 700714 said:
Tickets to/from Cambridge are also valid at Cambridge North and tickets to/from
Cambridge North are also valid at Cambridge. This easement covers all tickets,
including season tickets, except Advance tickets
To me, this suggests that you can start from Cambridge on a Cambridge North ticket, travel to Cambridge North, and then follow the mapped routes on your ticket, i.e. from Cambridge North to Ipswich, via Ely. You're not relying on a double-back between Cambridge and Cambridge North, nor are you starting "short" at Cambridge on a mapped route that goes Cambridge North -> Cambridge -> Ely -> Ipswich.

But if you have a Cambridge to Ipswich ticket then the easement is not relevant, and you're stuck with the mapped routes for that ticket, which don't allow via Ely.

Hence, I tihnk, why the OP wanted to buy a ticket from Cambridge North at Cambridge.
 

gingerheid

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Thanks for all the posts!

[snip] nor are you starting "short" at Cambridge on a mapped route that goes Cambridge North -> Cambridge -> Ely -> Ipswich. [snip]

Oh, I didn't think of that.

Perhaps I should explain what I'm trying to achieve, and ask the question that way round!

I want to travel from either Cambridge North or Cambridge to Ipswich, and then return to a choice of Cambridge or Cambridge North made when I get to Ipswich station. This might mean if I turn up at Ipswich station at the right time I'll want to make the Ipswich - Cambridge North journey via Ely. (Afaik because of the connection times there's no practical reason to ever want to travel from Cambridge to Ipswich via Ely, and there's no practical reason to ever want to travel via both Ely and Cambridge in either direction.)

I gather that if I leave from Cambridge North then there are no problems as the return ticket will be valid for both potentially practical routes. The question then is if there is a way of buying a return ticket that I'd use Cambridge - [Newmarket] - Ipswich, Ipswich - [Ely] - Cambridge North.
 

Watershed

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I gather that if I leave from Cambridge North then there are no problems as the return ticket will be valid for both potentially practical routes. The question then is if there is a way of buying a return ticket that I'd use Cambridge - [Newmarket] - Ipswich, Ipswich - [Ely] - Cambridge North.
Ah, that's quite simple - you'd just buy a ticket from Cambridge North to Ipswich. It gets a lot more complex if you want to travel from Cambridge, but if you're travelling from Cambridge North then it's fine.
 

arb

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I believe that you need a Cambridge North to Ipswich return ticket. Outward this allows for all four possibilities:
  • Cambridge North - Cambridge - Newmarket - Ipswich: mapped route, shown in journey planners
  • Cambridge - Newmarket - Ipswich: starting short on above mapped route
  • Cambridge North - Ely - Ipswich: mapped route, shown in journey planners
  • Cambridge - Cambridge North - Ely - Ipswich: using easment 700714 to get to get between Cambridge and Cambridge North, then a mapped route as above
Then the return journey is the just reverse of the above logic, again all four possibilities are allowed.
 

Jason12

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I believe that you need a Cambridge North to Ipswich return ticket. Outward this allows for all four possibilities:
  • Cambridge North - Cambridge - Newmarket - Ipswich: mapped route, shown in journey planners
  • Cambridge - Newmarket - Ipswich: starting short on above mapped route
  • Cambridge North - Ely - Ipswich: mapped route, shown in journey planners
  • Cambridge - Cambridge North - Ely - Ipswich: using easment 700714 to get to get between Cambridge and Cambridge North, then a mapped route as above
Then the return journey is the just reverse of the above logic, again all four possibilities are allowed.
I am not convinced that the wording of the easement provides the routeing you suggest.

My reading of the easement is that it allows a ticket with origin/destination Cambridge to be used as a ticket with origin/destination Cambridge North, and vice versa.

That would allow an Ipswich to Cambridge ticket to be used to travel from Ipswich to Cambridge North, via Ely. But if it was used as a ticket with destination Cambridge North, that would be the limit of its validity. The easement would not permit continuing beyond Cambridge North, to Cambridge.
 

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