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Ipswich to Cambridge... Via Liverpool Street?

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stut

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I stumbled across a site today claiming to teach you all sorts of tricks for cheap fares on NXEA. The killer was this one - that Ipswich to Cambridge fares were valid via Liverpool Street (NXEA services only - no transfer to King's Cross for FCC). I blinked.

Then I put it into the NXEC booking engine. 'Avoid Stowmarket' I said (a little harsh maybe, everybody likes the Museum of East Anglian Life), and there it is. Ipswich down to Cambridge, via London, on a flexible ticket that presumably allows a break of journey, for a cool £12.90 off-peak, £16 peak return.

Shurely shome mishtake?
 
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EltonRoad

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I recently asked at Cambridge booking office this exact question, i.e. is a ticket to Ipswich valid via Liverpool Street, and the answer was "no".

However an off-peak day return, booked via the NXEC booking engine, threw this up as a valid route.

The routing guide confirms this. I do wish rail staff would get their facts right.

Just on an aside: I recently travelled from King's Cross to Cambridge on the return half of an off-peak return with a Network Railcard. I wanted to travel on the 0945 - I'd just arrived on the Sleeper from Fort William to Euston and was pretty knackered! I showed my ticket to two FCC staff at King's Cross and asked whether it was valid on the 0945. They both said it was.

Yes, I know now.

The guard excessed me up to the anytime return fare without the benefit of a railcard discount. I suppose he could have penalty fared me but he didn't.

I appreciate my ticket wasn't valid but I showed it to two members of staff before boarding. Neither gave me correct info.

This, I believe, is pretty poor. I don't work on the railways but if I did my job this badly I'd be reprimanded, and rightly so.
 

mathmo

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An Off-Peak Return is valid on the 0945 - just not with a Network Railcard (which isn't valid before 1000). You were also very unlucky to have your ticket checked - I've never had mine checked on a London-Cambridge train in either direction other than by barriers at each end.

Returning to the point at hand - Ipswich-Cambridge via London is definitely a valid route: maybe I should try it when I need a single to London soon?! But I disagree that it's only valid via Liverpool Street - the route is "LONDON" which means you can go any valid route Ipswich-London and then any valid route London-Cambridge (i.e. including FCC). Can another routing guide expert confirm?
 

O L Leigh

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Yes, but why would you...? It would take even longer than the direct service, which probably explains why there is no London restriction. No sane person would attempt such a route.

O L Leigh
 

yorkie

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I recently asked at Cambridge booking office this exact question, i.e. is a ticket to Ipswich valid via Liverpool Street, and the answer was "no".
Did they just say that or did they actually look it up? if the former they're lazy. If the latter, they're liars.
However an off-peak day return, booked via the NXEC booking engine, threw this up as a valid route.

The routing guide confirms this. I do wish rail staff would get their facts right.
All staff? No chance! There's more Basil Fawlty-types in the rail industry than any other service industry I'm sure!
Just on an aside: I recently travelled from King's Cross to Cambridge on the return half of an off-peak return with a Network Railcard. I wanted to travel on the 0945 - I'd just arrived on the Sleeper from Fort William to Euston and was pretty knackered! I showed my ticket to two FCC staff at King's Cross and asked whether it was valid on the 0945. They both said it was.
It is.

RETURN TRAVEL:
By any train scheduled to
depart at or after 0930
except:

Not valid on any services
which are scheduled to depart
London Kings Cross, London St
Pancras Intl or Moorgate or
pass through London St Pancras
Intl between 1730 and 1830
(inc), regardless of where_you
join or leave the service.
The guard excessed me up to the anytime return fare without the benefit of a railcard discount. I suppose he could have penalty fared me but he didn't.
Firstly, refuse to pay on the basis that it is valid. Ask him "What is the restriction code?" "What is the text associated with that restriction code?" and they cannot deny a railcard discount!
I appreciate my ticket wasn't valid but I showed it to two members of staff before boarding. Neither gave me correct info.
Why do you appreciate it was not valid? it was valid.
This, I believe, is pretty poor. I don't work on the railways but if I did my job this badly I'd be reprimanded, and rightly so.
Absolutely. But they aren't, and that's the problem, so they keep on doing it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes, but why would you...? It would take even longer than the direct service, which probably explains why there is no London restriction. No sane person would attempt such a route.

O L Leigh
Because you want to visit a friend in London? or maybe someone likes class 90s and wants a bash? all sorts of reasons!

And it is valid via King's Cross.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I suppose he could have penalty fared me but he didn't.
No he couldn't! If you had got the 0915 then he could have charged you £5.25.

Penalty fares cannot be issued if you travel on an invalid route or if you travel on a ticket for a time that your ticket is not valid on. The ticket should be excessed (full difference for change of ticket type, half the difference for change of route).
 

glynn80

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It is.

RETURN TRAVEL:
By any train scheduled to
depart at or after 0930
except:

Not valid on any services
which are scheduled to depart
London Kings Cross, London St
Pancras Intl or Moorgate or
pass through London St Pancras
Intl between 1730 and 1830
(inc), regardless of where_you
join or leave the service.

The OP had a Network Railcard discounted ticket and this then rendered the entire ticket was invalid. Regardless of whether the Off Peak Return was valid after 09:30, Network Railcards are not valid until 10:00.

Firstly, refuse to pay on the basis that it is valid. Ask him "What is the restriction code?" "What is the text associated with that restriction code?" and they cannot deny a railcard discount!

They can deny a railcard discount when the railcard is a Network Railcard and the time is before 10:00. Discounts are only available after 10:00 Mondays to Fridays. The OP in this case did indeed hold a Network Railcard and boarded the 0945 service.

Another reason why often railcard discounts are not accepted onboard, is if there was the oppourtunity to buy before the passenger boarded. Again this was the case in this circumstance, with the ticket office being open at London Kings Cross, 24 hours a day. Similarly onboard, often TOCs only sell full fare tickets onboard, which was the reason the OP was excessed up to the Anytime Return fare rather than just the Off Peak Return fare.
 
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yorkie

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They can deny a railcard discount when the railcard is a Network Railcard and the time is before 10:00. Discounts are only available after 10:00 Mondays to Fridays. The OP in this case did indeed hold a Network Railcard and boarded the 0945 service..
I was thinking it was a minimum £13 fare before 10am but I've discovered it's £13 after 10am. In which case I think the excess should be to an Off Peak without the railcard.
Another reason why often railcard discounts are not accepted onboard, is if there was the oppourtunity to buy before the passenger boarded. Again this was the case in this circumstance, with the ticket office being open at London Kings Cross, 24 hours a day.
This isn't applicable to this scenario now, but I am sure that if a passenger uses a train on a different route or at a different time, they can still get the railcard discount - except in this case as the railcard isn't valid at that time.
 

glynn80

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I was thinking it was a minimum £13 fare before 10am but I've discovered it's £13 after 10am. In which case I think the excess should be to an Off Peak without the railcard.
Nope, there was an oppourtunity to buy before the OP boarded at KGX and thus the TOC is free to excess the passenger up to the full fare (as that is the only ticket type they sell onboard). The scenario you describe would only be applicable had there been no oppourtunity to buy at the station he had boarded or the TOC sells the full range of fares onboard.
This isn't applicable to this scenario now, but I am sure that if a passenger uses a train on a different route or at a different time, they can still get the railcard discount - except in this case as the railcard isn't valid at that time.

Well many TOCs refuse to accept Railcards onboard if there was oppourtunity to buy the railcard discounted ticket they required, at the station they boarded. NXEC spring to mind at present and I'm pretty sure this is a widespread policy.
 

yorkie

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That doesn't sound right to me. If that was the case, why is it you can change route at no penalty? and you can't be penalty fared so it's NOT a case of boarding without a ticket. No new ticket is being purchased.

If this is true then it seems utterly unfair and could surely be challenged in court?
 

glynn80

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That doesn't sound right to me. If that was the case, why is it you can change route at no penalty? and you can't be penalty fared so it's NOT a case of boarding without a ticket. No new ticket is being purchased.

This is not a change of route scenario, this is an invalid Railcard discounted ticket scenario. Completely different circumstances within the Excess Fare Procedures.
 

mathmo

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Yes, but why would you...? It would take even longer than the direct service, which probably explains why there is no London restriction. No sane person would attempt such a route.

O L Leigh

The point is surely you can conveniently break your journey in London for less than the price of a London ticket!
 

yorkie

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I'd like to see the procedures. But how can they treat someone as a piece of dirt if they travel at 0945 instead of 0930 but give them the right to not be penalised if they want to go a different route? That seems bizarre.

I don't see how they can possibly get away with that!

As for the original issue... Foxton is about £1 more for a SVR but routed "Not London", and Whittlesford Pkwy is also routed "Not London" for a little more. These will use Cambridge as a routeing point so whoever put "Not London" in the route for those tickets did appear to realise that Cambridge to Ipswich is valid via London.

But whoever priced Cambridge to Ipswich didn't realise it's valid, and it doesn't have the "+" so anyone using it from LST-KGX is advised not to bother using LU even though it is valid on LU as the staff on LU will argue all day that it isn't as their training does not cover the routeing guide and they are incorrectly told that only tickets with the "+" are valid. They can get away with this as it's the rail industry, of course.
 

Nick W

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I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw this, having recently purchased two SVRs splitting at Colchester to travel via London. The online routing guide indeed claims that this is indeed correct, and I hate to think how much money I have wasted buying tickets to London when I could have bought tickets to Cambridge. Indeed it must run into triple figures.

I believe Not London means not via any of the London Terminals or Bethnal Green, therefore the situation with a Not London ticket being valid via the London group is quite correct, one would have to travel via Stratford and the north london line.
 

stut

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The point is surely you can conveniently break your journey in London for less than the price of a London ticket!

Yes, that's exactly the point! It's significantly cheaper than a IPS-LST return.

Good news that it's valid via KGX too.

I can't imagine it being accepted without a fight, though...
 

tony_mac

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I think the line in the routeing guide 'Cambridge Ipswich LONDON CN ' is pretty clear though, I don't think you could possibly argue that it isn't valid via London!
 

A60K

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To avoid any arguments about whether it is or isn't valid on the Underground, walk from Liverpool Street to Moorgate and take FCC services from there...
 

mathmo

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I have to go to London tomorrow (from Cambridge, during the morning peak). Should I buy a ticket to Ipswich instead, and if so, what should I say at King's Cross (as I expect I'd be challenged!)?
 

glynn80

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I have to go to London tomorrow (from Cambridge, during the morning peak). Should I buy a ticket to Ipswich instead, and if so, what should I say at King's Cross (as I expect I'd be challenged!)?

Inform them that Condition 13 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage intructs passengers on the route they are entitled to take and states the following:
NRCoC said:
13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide (details as to how you can obtain this information will be available when you buy your ticket).

Then explain to them that the routeing guide codes for the journeys between Cambridge and Ipswich, includes both the London route code and code CN (which is the mapped routes on map CN, via Bury St Edmonds). If the London route code is displayed, explain to them the passenger is then required to cross reference route codes applicable "to London" with the code for the "from London" leg of the journey.

You may wish to print off the relevant page from the routeing guide which is located in this link (http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/yellowpages/cambridge.htm). This is probably going to be essential because when checking the WebTIS's, none displayed the route as one that was valid with an Any Permitted CBG to IPS ticket. Similar results are likely to be displayed on RJIS (the most likely system the TOCs will use to check if the route is permitted).
 
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stut

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And if you do, I'd be intrigued to know how you get on!

(Mind you, if you get on a 12-car, it'll arrive in the main station, rather than 9-11...)
 

mathmo

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The journey planners give lots of journeys via Kings Cross in the evening peak but none in the morning. But they won't sell you tickets for it, even though "multiple tickets required" isn't shown!

I may however get the 0745 which is a 12-car service...
 

EltonRoad

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Hi guys.

I've checked my tickets, and, I do apologise, I was excessed up to the Off Peak Return fare but without Network Railcard discount.

The guard, I believe, acted quite fairly in doing this.

However the two FCC staff who both looked at my ticket, and told me it was valid on the 0945 King's Cross to Cambridge, are complete numpties.
 

glynn80

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Hi guys.
The guard, I believe, acted quite fairly in doing this.

Its not that the guard acted fairly, he acted correctly.

The Off Peak Return was valid on the 0945 but not with the Network Railcard (which is only valid after 10am).
 

yorkie

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Hi guys.

I've checked my tickets, and, I do apologise, I was excessed up to the Off Peak Return fare but without Network Railcard discount.

The guard, I believe, acted quite fairly in doing this.

However the two FCC staff who both looked at my ticket, and told me it was valid on the 0945 King's Cross to Cambridge, are complete numpties.
In that case that's exactly what I think should have happened now I know about the Network Railcard's daft rules.

However as you were told it was valid, I think he should have contacted the station to verify this although the railway's biased rules probably will say it's somehow your fault (!)

Legally you can't have a situation where a customer is told it's valid and then charged.

Write and complain and ask for your money back. If they refuse, go to Passenger Focus.
 

ikorodu

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By my recokning someone travelling five days a week from cambridge to london and back would actually better off getting five anytime cambridge to ipswich returns compared with the weekly cambridge to london season!

ikorodu
 
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mathmo

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I did this today. In brief, those who want an argument will be disappointed!

Having failed to buy tickets online last night due to "maintenance", I needed to buy the appropriate ticket at Cambridge station. But the ticket machines wouldn't sell me an Anytime Day Return route Any Permitted - only route First Bus xxx which is much more expensive. So I queued up and bought a ticket from the counter, ignoring the very helpful advice about catching the 0800 since the direct Ipswich service had just been cancelled!

Jumped on the 0745 - 12-car service so arrived into platform 8 at King's Cross. Not an RPI in sight so no problem. (Didn't want a barrier argument at this point anyway as I was in a rush!)
I was very late coming back so only caught the 2152 - all barriers were open, but it went from platform 6 for some reason anyway. However, the train had "serious brake problems" at Stevenage and dumped us all off to wait for the all-stopper to Cambridge. This got me in 30 minutes later than intended which is just about eligible for a Delay Repay claim. Again, no ticket checks on any trains, but the Cambridge barrier ate my ticket. So should I do nothing or make a claim, which risks alerting them to the fact this is a valid route (although if they pay then they are admitting it is a valid route)?
 

John @ home

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A new version of the National Routeing Guide was published on the ATOC web site yesterday. The good news is that it still shows Cambridge - Ipswich via London is a permitted route.

The permitted routes are LONDON and CN. CN allows travel via Newmarket, or via Ely and Soham.

John
 

mathmo

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Just be prepared to fight your corner as glynn80 suggests if you try this - I went fully armed with printouts of various pages of the Routeing Guide in case I was asked!
 

yorkie

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So should I do nothing or make a claim, which risks alerting them to the fact this is a valid route (although if they pay then they are admitting it is a valid route)?
They may compensate you and then say that the RG will be changed at the next update.

Or they may not pay you on the basis that you deliberately chose a slower route and therefore effectively delayed yourself?

Someone (the brother of a forum member on here) was chinged on Newcastle-Carlisle via Leeds because he did not arm himself with the relevant pages from the RG. He then claimed money back, he got it back, but they changed the RG (in one direction only as we now know :lol:) Someone else on this forum successfully used the ticket by producing the relevant pages from the RG.

So the lesson there is always arm yourself with the relevant pages, don't pay any extra fares, and don't make any compensation claims!;)
 
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