Ircas after 30 months!

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Zwypl

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Hi,

My son was caught on a TFL bus in 2018 without his zip card/Oyster (he was around 13 at the time). He got a fine and I tried challenging it in writing backward and forwards.

I was out of time and they didnt accept any excuses. I believe they acted unreasinably.

All went quiet for around 30 months.


Today I get a letter from IRCAS addressed to "Parent or Guardian of Mr ---- " (they don't have my or my son's first name), that if I don't pay the fill £80 within 14 days they will begin legal action.

Do I have to take notice?
 

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Gloster

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As the date of the journey is given on the notice, you should know his age on the date of the occurrence. This may be of relevance.
 

skyhigh

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So he got a Penalty Fare, you challenged it, they didn't accept the challenge - was the Penalty Fare paid?
 

Zwypl

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Question 1: is it statute-barred due to effluxion of time?
2: can they issue proceedings for parent or guardian without first names of both?
3: he is now 16?
 

221129

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Question 1: is it statute-barred due to effluxion of time?
2: can they issue proceedings for parent or guardian without first names of both?
3: he is now 16?
No it isn't. It can be recovered through a civil court.

Yes they can.

Irrelevant.
 

Mak1981

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As its a civil debt, I don't think this would be able to be enforced on the parents(happy to be shown otherwise!) A child cannot held to contract as not considered to have capacity to do so until 18 years old

if if was a criminal case it is different, parents are can be liable for fines incurred by children if decided at the youth court
 

AlterEgo

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No it isn't. It can be recovered through a civil court.

Yes they can.

Irrelevant.
Citation needed for these I think.

How can a civil debt be accrued through a 13 year old child be enforceable against an (unnamed) "parent or guardian"?
 
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ukkid

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Really scraping the barrel here and hoping people just cave in.

Edit. Just read the letter. Its headed as a NIP. This nonsense just gets better.
 
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furlong

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Perhaps a 'NOTICE OF INTENDED PROSECUTION' issued more than 6 months after the incident might count as an "administrative error"? An agent of TfL ought to demonstrate high standards, if the OP fancies practising their complaining skills again.
 

Zwypl

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Citation needed for these I think.

How can a civil debt be accrued through a 13 year old child be enforceable against an (unnamed) "parent or guardian"?
I believe a parent has responsibility under the law for criminal offences until the age of 16?

btw I complained at the time that their appeal response didn't comply with any of the five conditions below. Hard for me to put together all the paperwok.

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, SCHEDULE 2, reads as follows:



· 8 Where an Appeal Panel notifies its decision not to allow an appeal under regulation 16 it must provide the appellant with a statement that—

(a)the person has the right to appeal against the decision to the relevant Appeal Panel;

(b)that the appeal would be considered by a different person at the relevant Appeal Panel;

(c)if the appeal was unsuccessful the person would have the right to appeal to the relevant Final Appeal Panel; and

(d)the operator will be entitled to commence court proceedings to recover the penalty fare if the appellant does not—

(i)appeal the decision to the relevant Appeal Panel within the 14 day period provided for by regulation 17(1)(a); or(ii)pay the penalty fare within that period.
 

ukkid

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Perhaps a 'NOTICE OF INTENDED PROSECUTION' issued more than 6 months after the incident might count as an "administrative error"? An agent of TfL ought to demonstrate high standards, if the OP fancies practising their complaining skills again.

I'd consider complaining to my London AM or even Sadiq directly'.
I'm pretty sure they even used to say you were not legally obliged to pay outstanding penalty fare when requesting payment for the penalty fare from parents


I believe a parent has responsibility under the law for criminal offences until the age of 16?

btw I complained at the time that their appeal response didn't comply with any of the five conditions below. Hard for me to put together all the paperwok.

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, SCHEDULE 2, reads as follows:



· 8 Where an Appeal Panel notifies its decision not to allow an appeal under regulation 16 it must provide the appellant with a statement that—

(a)the person has the right to appeal against the decision to the relevant Appeal Panel;

(b)that the appeal would be considered by a different person at the relevant Appeal Panel;

(c)if the appeal was unsuccessful the person would have the right to appeal to the relevant Final Appeal Panel; and

(d)the operator will be entitled to commence court proceedings to recover the penalty fare if the appellant does not—

(i)appeal the decision to the relevant Appeal Panel within the 14 day period provided for by regulation 17(1)(a); or(ii)pay the penalty fare within that period.
By any chance was your child traveling to or from school at the time? You would have further grounds for the appeal, as the vulnerable passengers policy (or something similar sounding would apply)

Your child cannot be prosecuted. This is not a criminal matter.

It's being debated above, whether they could theoretically attempt to recover the penalty fare via a county court (civilly) from you. This is because it's unlikely anyone has knowledge of an attempt ever being made. I've never even heard of a penalty fare being recovered from an adult via a county court, (other means are normally used which are not available here)
 
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AlterEgo

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I believe a parent has responsibility under the law for criminal offences until the age of 16?
No, you are not responsible for the crimes of your child and you cannot be prosecuted in their absence. In any case, this is well outside the six month limit required to lay a case before the magistrates’ court. It’s essentially an unenforceable civil debt against a child, which they are sending to you in the hope that you’ll pay.

There will be no prosecution and there is no prospect of them recovering the money by any other method.

They don’t even have your name! Put it in the round file in the corner of the room and forget about it.
 

Haywain

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They don’t even have your name! Put it in the round file in the corner of the room and forget about it.
The OP wrote to appeal so I think it’s safe to assume he didn’t do do anonymously.
 

Mak1981

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No, you are not responsible for the crimes of your child

This part is not quite correct, again happy to be shown otherwise, civil debt and criminal fine seem to be treated differently.


"The size of the fine depends in part on the seriousness of the offence and how much the youth can pay. If the child is under 16, the youth court is compelled to order that parents or guardians pay the fine."
 

Wallsendmag

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I believe a parent has responsibility under the law for criminal offences until the age of 16?

btw I complained at the time that their appeal response didn't comply with any of the five conditions below. Hard for me to put together all the paperwok.

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, SCHEDULE 2, reads as follows:



· 8 Where an Appeal Panel notifies its decision not to allow an appeal under regulation 16 it must provide the appellant with a statement that—

(a)the person has the right to appeal against the decision to the relevant Appeal Panel;

(b)that the appeal would be considered by a different person at the relevant Appeal Panel;

(c)if the appeal was unsuccessful the person would have the right to appeal to the relevant Final Appeal Panel; and

(d)the operator will be entitled to commence court proceedings to recover the penalty fare if the appellant does not—

(i)appeal the decision to the relevant Appeal Panel within the 14 day period provided for by regulation 17(1)(a); or(ii)pay the penalty fare within that period.
Why would the Railway Penalty fares Regulations apply to a TfL bus journey?
 

AlterEgo

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This part is not quite correct, again happy to be shown otherwise, civil debt and criminal fine seem to be treated differently.


"The size of the fine depends in part on the seriousness of the offence and how much the youth can pay. If the child is under 16, the youth court is compelled to order that parents or guardians pay the fine."
Yes, my mistake in being careless with the phrasing. I was being more specific here in relating to the actual case, which is not a criminal fine imposed by a court but in fact, in its current guise, effectively a civil debt.

The allegation of a criminal offence in the letter is meaningless as it can't be prosecuted as one. They just want eighty pounds from an unnamed "parent or guardian".

1) Out of time to prosecute, ignore correspondence
2) Do not pay £80
3) It's a debt with no means of recovery other than by civil means, owed by a thirteen year old child, hence it has no chance of recovery from absolutely anyone under any process.
 

island

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I agree with AlterEgo.

The time to prosecute criminally has expired (not that a minor would be likely to be prosecuted for this) and any civil liability for the debt cannot attach to the parent.

It is up to Zwypl as a matter of conscience to decide whether they wish to pay the Penalty Fare, which whilst legitimately due and payable cannot realistically be enforced.
 

Zwypl

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I don't think the debt is due for various reasons and have also not been treated fairly with the "out of time" excuse when I wanted to present evidence. My conscience is very clear, I am simply querying the law.
 

Master29

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AlterEgo is correct surely. It's a civil matter not a criminal one and out of time anyway. This is TfL after all though.
 
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