Irish Loading Gauge

[najaB]

Surely standard gauge would be required for any new build in Ireland. They are subject to the same interoperability requirements as the rest of the EU are they not?

How, precisely, does the Irish network interoperate with the Continental network?

 

[Andyjs247]

What about Finland, Portugal and (most of) Spain? If the rules don't apply there then why should they apply to a network that will almost certainly never be connected to the rest of Europe ?

I'm not so sure that the rules do not apply. The new high speed network in Spain is built to standard gauge. Was it a requirement to have standard gauge for new build there? In principle the rules should apply equally, but clearly there is a huge cost involved in converting existing lines to standard gauge. So it's unlikely to happen any time soon. But it doesn't mean not planning for it at some in the future.

How, precisely, does the Irish network interoperate with the Continental network?

It doesn't directly - unless someone builds a tunnel under the Irish Sea connecting Britain with Ireland. Indirectly there are various common standards which would help with the procurement and supply of rolling stock for example. In theory it promotes competition and reduces costs.

 

[edwin_m]

Ireland has an indefinite derogation from the track gauge requirement of the TSIs. I'm not sure if this would include building a high speed line, but they have certainly extended their broad gauge network in recent years (the southern part of the line from Clonsilla towards Navan) and expect to do so again (DART Underground).

It's a bit different from Spain and Portugal - even though the first high speed line went no nearer to France than Madrid, the plan was always to link it up and this has now happened. So 1435mm would probably have been adopted whether required by the EU or not. Incidentally they also bought some broad-gauge TGVs for the Mediterranean coast route, so an all broad-gauge high speed network would most likely have been possible technically.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromed_(train)

The other problem with bringing back the Irish Mk3s to the UK would presumably have been re-gauging the bogies or finding/making suitable replacements.

 

[craigybagel]

The other problem with bringing back the Irish Mk3s to the UK would presumably have been re-gauging the bogies or finding/making suitable replacements.

I'm not sure if would have been that hard - the reverse was certainly done a few times. If I remember correctly, towards the end of their lives 3 of the MkIII Push Pull control cars were fitted with bogies recovered from the UK and regauged (they had originally been fitted with the same bogies as used by 8100 EMUs, the original DART fleet, and as a result were restricted to 70mph). There was also a former HST catering vehicle that was imported and modified to be used on the Dublin-Waterford push-pull set - I believe this kept it's original bogies which were modified .

I'm not sure if it's harder to shrink bogies than it is to expand them though.

 

[DT611]

The MKIIIs were withdrawn en-masse despite only being about 25 years old. Those in power decided they were old and needed replacing with something shiny - when there was nothing wrong that a decent refurb couldn't have fixed. Instead, a small fortune was spent on buying more of the 22k, which despite them being arguably the nicest DMUs to be found in the British Isles was something of a waste given Irish Rails somewhat perilous finances. They were offered for sale but no purchase was ever likely - to run them in the UK, the only likely scenario, would have required a complete rewiring. And so most have been scrapped. Meanwhile, the 8200 class EMUs (dating from 2000) and the 2700 class DMUs (1998) have also been entirely withdrawn, and will most likely meet the same fate.

But given this is a company that still staffs stations that see 2 trains a day is anyone really surprised?

Only the town stations are really staffed now. Most if not all the smaller stations are either unstaffed or staffed part of the day only. Your correct about IE'S rolling stock management though. Dispite all the new units we are still short of stock over here. Even some of the mk4 bought for the cork line are in storage all though some sets are going to come back apparently. They get away with it because nobody who can challenge them does so. Don't worry though, a new logo/paint job and the problems will go away!!!!!!!!

I'm not so sure that the rules do not apply. The new high speed network in Spain is built to standard gauge. Was it a requirement to have standard gauge for new build there? In principle the rules should apply equally, but clearly there is a huge cost involved in converting existing lines to standard gauge. So it's unlikely to happen any time soon. But it doesn't mean not planning for it at some in the future.

The thing is there is no reason for ireland to plan for it. There is no good reason to change the gauge of our network. the costs would be prohibitive and it's very unlikely we will ever be connected up to the rest of the european network. Not worth the cost.

It doesn't directly - unless someone builds a tunnel under the Irish Sea connecting Britain with Ireland. Indirectly there are various common standards which would help with the procurement and supply of rolling stock for example. In theory it promotes competition and reduces costs.[/QUOTE]

The competition aspect is all ready plentyful however if companies don't bid for contracts they're is nothing that can be done.

 

[edwin_m]

The competition aspect is all ready plentyful however if companies don't bid for contracts they're is nothing that can be done.

In theory interoperability allows a standard design to be used across a whole range of countries, which makes it likely that more companies will have something in their product range to bid for a particular requirement.

 

[DT611]

In theory interoperability allows a standard design to be used across a whole range of countries, which makes it likely that more companies will have something in their product range to bid for a particular requirement.

that is true. However the costs of regauging the network wouldn't be worth it just to have a couple more companies bidding to build trains for us. the disruption (which may likely exist) may kill the lot altogether.
the network barely gets enough as it is, funding it properly and encouraging more use of it are the issues that need dealing with and is where the money needs to be spent. On the list of things that need doing regauging is likely not on the governments list, and it certainly isn't on the wish list of us users.

 

[edwin_m]

that is true. However the costs of regauging the network wouldn't be worth it just to have a couple more companies bidding to build trains for us. the disruption (which may likely exist) may kill the lot altogether.
the network barely gets enough as it is, funding it properly and encouraging more use of it are the issues that need dealing with and is where the money needs to be spent. On the list of things that need doing regauging is likely not on the governments list, and it certainly isn't on the wish list of us users.

I agree, and so it seems does the EU.

 

[randyrippley]

Am I right in thinking that on the Irish rail network there isn't the variable loading gauge with passenger stock and in theory any passenger stock can run anywhere except of course for the DART trains.



But what loading gauge would it be built to?

presumably the tunnel would take the shortest route, something like Barrow-in-Furness > Douglas, overland to Peel along the old Manx railway route, then a second tunnel Peel > Belfast. So it would have to be Manx Gauge of 3 feet