Irish Rail - New Dublin Suburban Trains (DART)

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,374
Location
East Anglia
Strong rumours suggesting that Alstom are very much in pole position for this contract, both on the French side and on the Irish side.

Can anyone substantiate it?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

berneyarms

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
2,489
Location
Dublin
No official confirmation yet.
I'm sure that as soon as the NTA and Irish Rail are ready to let us know, they will.
 

Wolfie

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
3,624
Oops, what am I thinking of then? Something I'm sure was nicknamed 'Spanish' and not reliable - I thought it was the 8200s, but on checking those are indeed GEC/Alstom
No worries. Buying penny packets of odd units certainly doesn't seem to be a recipe for reliability to me.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
11,779
Location
Glasgow
No worries. Buying penny packets of odd units certainly doesn't seem to be a recipe for reliability to me.
Brain's got crossed wires somewhere; I still can't think exactly where I've got muddled.

Yes I would agree, recent orders though have all been with the Tokyu company who also built most of the regional DMU fleet.
 

DanNCL

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2017
Messages
1,720
Location
County Durham
Brain's got crossed wires somewhere; I still can't think exactly where I've got muddled.

Yes I would agree, recent orders though have all been with the Tokyu company who also built most of the regional DMU fleet.
CAF built the 29000 class DMUs used on the Northern Commuter route from Dublin Connolly, could they be what you were thinking of?
 

berneyarms

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
2,489
Location
Dublin
The 2700 DMU and 8200 EMU were built by GEC Alstom in Spain - that’s probably where people are getting confused.

The 29000 were also built in Spain but by CAF, as indeed were the Mark 4 coaches and the NIR 3000 and 4000 series DMU.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
11,779
Location
Glasgow
CAF built the 29000 class DMUs used on the Northern Commuter route from Dublin Connolly, could they be what you were thinking of?
It wasn't them, I don't think they are unreliable for one thing.

Maybe I'll figure out what it was I was originally thinking of! ;)

(Must look out my Irish stock books.)

The 2700 DMU and 8200 EMU were built by GEC Alstom in Spain - that’s probably where people are getting confused.

The 29000 were also built in Spain but by CAF, as indeed were the Mark 4 coaches and the NIR 3000 and 4000 series DMU.
Oh they are actually 'Spanish' then the 8200s?

Well then, I think I must've been thinking of the 8200s and I've simply crossed manufacturers based on perceived 'nationality' if you get my meaning.
 

berneyarms

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
2,489
Location
Dublin
Oh they are actually 'Spanish' then the 8200s?

Well then, I think I must've been thinking of the 8200s and I've simply crossed manufacturers based on perceived 'nationality' if you get my meaning.
That’s exactly what I think you did.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
11,779
Location
Glasgow
That’s exactly what I think you did.
Oh well, at least that won't bother me anymore.


Back to the main point though - given the 8200s are Alstom products and were withdrawn before time and are essentially mothballed, it does beg the question why Alstom seem to be the frontrunners here and not Tokyu again.
 

Gag Halfrunt

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2019
Messages
297
Were the bids submitted before Alstom acquired Bombardier?

IÉ's last units built by Tokyu Car Corporation (now J-TREC, owned by JR East) were the 8520 class in 2004. The 22000 Class intercity DMUs were built by Hyundai Rotem but have Tokyu bogies, perhaps because Hyundai Rotem didn't have any broad gauge experience.

CAF would be in a strong position because of their DMUs for IÉ and NI Railways, but perhaps the problems with the Civity UK are having an impact.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
3,500
No worries. Buying penny packets of odd units certainly doesn't seem to be a recipe for reliability to me.
The 2700 class from the same manufacturer was a pretty large order - it didn't stop it from being a similar disaster to the 8200s (though they did survive in service slightly longer).

Given how bad the Alsthom fleets turned out, especially when put alongside the Tokyu units I too am surprised at the rumours that Alstom have won this time around - though having said that 20 years has passed and it's not as though they haven't built any decent stock in the meantime.
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,374
Location
East Anglia
The 2700 class from the same manufacturer was a pretty large order - it didn't stop it from being a similar disaster to the 8200s (though they did survive in service slightly longer).

26 carriages wouldn't qualify as large in my book.

These new trains will see off the 8100s. Hopefully one is preserved and put in a transport museum somewhere. They'll hit 40 years old in 2024 if they survive that long. Great achievement and the interiors are still in very good nick, a testament to the good quality overhaul and refurbishment Siemens gave them 15 years ago!
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
3,500
26 carriages wouldn't qualify as large in my book.

These new trains will see off the 8100s. Hopefully one is preserved and put in a transport museum somewhere. They'll hit 40 years old in 2024 if they survive that long. Great achievement and the interiors are still in very good nick, a testament to the good quality overhaul and refurbishment Siemens gave them 15 years ago!
It was large by Irish Rail standards at the time though - and especially when compared to the 10 carriage 8200 order. It was also a larger order than for both of the similar Tokyu built DMU fleets (2600 and 2800 class), both of which were and still are far more successful.

I do agree the 8100s have done very well - and it's not like they're had an easy life either. Working an intense stopping service day in day out (and never more than a mile from the sea). The fact the only casualties are the two units lost in the fire at Fairview depot is quite a record - and no EMU delivered in Ireland since has been able to match their comfort.
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,374
Location
East Anglia
I do agree the 8100s have done very well - and it's not like they're had an easy life either. Working an intense stopping service day in day out (and never more than a mile from the sea). The fact the only casualties are the two units lost in the fire at Fairview depot is quite a record - and no EMU delivered in Ireland since has been able to match their comfort.

I've never been a fan of bench seats, so in reality I shouldn't like the 8100s comfort wise but I really do. They feel really suited to the kind of work they do. They feel a proper train. Everything inside is in good nick, the panelling at the ends of the carriages, the surfaces, the interior walls. Sure there is some wear and tear on the units but for their age and the fact their refurbishment was 15 years ago, they've held up excellently.

Whilst the Toyku's are now more reliable and benefit from air conditioning and look newer outside, they're not perfect units. The earlier examples have overly padded too big seats which results in very poor legroom and the (fixed in later version with thinner seats) and all have a cheap feeling and unreliable information system. They also feel a bit more outer suburban whereas the 8100s feel more inner suburban.

I can't see any of the other Irish Rail units holding up for anything like as long as the 8100s. It will be sad to see them go, but it really is high time to see something new with greater capacity and less wasted space for cabs, since on an 8 car 8100 you've got 8 cabs which is a lot of wasted space.
 

merry

Member
Joined
19 Oct 2011
Messages
40
The 22000 Class intercity DMUs were built by Hyundai Rotem but have Tokyu bogies, perhaps because Hyundai Rotem didn't have any broad gauge experience.
Rotem have definitely built for broad gauge before; their Changwon works ( in S Korea) has multiple facilities & assembly roads with broad gauge track. Back in 2010 when I visited a few times, I think they were building for the Indian market?
How transferable their experience might be is another story...may just be that Tokyu bogies were the cheapest way to get the desired result in the time!

That works is also huge: makes the old Derby works look very small!
 

Gag Halfrunt

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2019
Messages
297
I only meant that Rotem perhaps lacked experience in designing broad gauge bogies. Another factor is that the vendor supplying the trains to IÉ was the Japanese trading house Mitsui & Co, as with the Tokyu orders. Perhaps Mitsui decided that a DMU built completely by Tokyu would be too expensive to win the tender but wanted to minimise the risk of problems with the bogies.

Anyway, I'd forgotten that Rotem had already built 1676mm gauge metro trains for Delhi. Then again, designing bogies for a new metro system with smooth track should be easier.
 

Top