• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Irish Rail Report

Status
Not open for further replies.

317 forever

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2010
Messages
2,543
Location
North West
Having travelled from Waterford to Limerick Jn, and onto Cork, and from Tralee to Cork, in June I would feel relieved to have done these lines then if they were to close.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Hornet

Member
Joined
16 Jul 2013
Messages
724
From the Irish Independent today:-

"Transport Minister may shut loss-making line that carries just 73 passengers a day
Taxpayers' €550 per passenger rail line bill

A single route on the country's rail network is costing the taxpayer €550 per passenger, ministers will be told today.

The extraordinary cost to the State to operate the loss-making Limerick-Ballybrophy line is revealed in a memo being brought to Cabinet by Transport Minister Shane Ross.
It compares to the sum of just 90c it costs per Dart passenger through the Government's subvention to the trouble-hit Irish Rail.

In 2012, Irish Rail added four extra daily services - at a cost of almost €20,000 per day - to the route which is serving the constituency of the then public transport minister Alan Kelly.
At the same time, just 73 people a day used the line, generating a paltry €753 a day in fares. But it now seems likely Mr Ross, an Independent Alliance minister, will close the route in order to save further taxpayers' money from being squandered.

According to the memo, seen by the Irish Independent, Irish Rail's body finances are deteriorating.
It suggests the taxpayer may have to foot the bill to deal with a black hole in the finances of the semi-State body.

The memo has been brought to Cabinet on the back of a review carried out into Irish Rail's finances.
"Until Iarnród Éireann's financial situation is rectified, the eventual costs to the Exchequer will continue to grow, while performance of the railway deteriorates. In the short-term, bridging the funding gap is necessary to prevent this," the memo states.

"The review identifies wide disparities in the funding requirement for the various routes on the network. It identifies the subvention requirement per passenger journey on each route, based on the running costs for these routes (excluding the capital investment). It shows, for example, that the subvention for each passenger journey on the Dart is 90c and on Limerick-Ballybrophy is €550."
Mr Ross will gain credit if he finally ends some of the network's loss making routes."


Figures from the report regards route that are under threat:-

Cash Cost per Passenger
Journey to Breakeven: Actual 2015
Limerick - Ballybrophy -€551.9
Limerick Junction - Waterford -€362.4
Limerick - Galway -€44.0
Dublin - Rosslare -€29.1

Full Report here (316 pages).
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp...1/2016_Rail_Review_Report_Complete_Online.pdf
 

duesselmartin

Established Member
Joined
18 Jan 2014
Messages
1,895
Location
Duisburg, Germany
On RTÉ Prime Time, a lot was argued about lack of Investments on the Ballybrophy line, yet nobody mentioned that Ennis-Athenry had that Investment and is still underused. Are those line to rural to suceed ?
 

DT611

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
464
On RTÉ Prime Time, a lot was argued about lack of Investments on the Ballybrophy line, yet nobody mentioned that Ennis-Athenry had that Investment and is still underused. Are those line to rural to suceed ?

ennis athenry was only reopened and the basics done as far as i know. The whole galway limerick line might have some chance of competing if the mid stations that were reopened on the ennis athenry section and six mile bridge on the limerick ennis section weren't reopened. The limerick ballybroaphy line has nenagh which is a decent sized town, which could support a rail service but the line would require huge investment which won't be fourth coming. The other stations along it would be rather rural, but even they might have a chance of some ridership if the line was brought up to the highest speeds possible.
Safe to say limerick ballybroaphy is a gonner but it will bring nothing in return for the rest. Ennis athenry isn't going anywhere, limerick junction to waterford will be the next after limerick ballybroaphy, again, yielding nothing in return.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,719
Location
Nottingham
Lesson here for some of the more optimistic proponents of reopening on this forum - built it and they may not come?
 

DT611

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
464
Lesson here for some of the more optimistic proponents of reopening on this forum - built it and they may not come?

Quite possibly, yes. At least in terms of the more marginal lines being proposed for reopening anyway. But, i could be wrong.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,182
Location
Bolton
Why did they reopen the line to Ballybrohpy? It's just fields.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20161117-232640.jpg
    Screenshot_20161117-232640.jpg
    84.1 KB · Views: 52

Techniquest

Veteran Member
Joined
19 Jun 2005
Messages
21,674
Location
Nowhere Heath
*Yawns*

They've been threatening to close Limerick to Ballybrophy for years, and it still isn't likely to happen any time soon.

I too don't know why they bothered re-opening Western Rail Corridor, that was a huge waste of money. Keeping Waterford to Rosslare open would have been a far better use of money!

Rail in Ireland is poorly used, full stop, outside the county of Dublin. Northern Ireland fare better, but then rail fares are so much better up there. So many areas in the Republic of Ireland (note I use the full name here in this sentence to clarify which part of the country I refer to) need better information systems on their stations. I found this a major pain when I covered the country's railways, I mean come on if the ultra rural shacks on the Heart of Wales line can get decent passenger information screens then so should Ireland.

My opinion is simply to leave just these lines running:

Dublin - Athlone - Galway
Athlone - Westport and Ballina
Portarlington - Cork
Dublin - Belfast
Limerick Junction - Limerick
Dublin - Waterford

The rest have such poor service I wouldn't bother wasting money on them. Dublin to Rosslare by rail for ferry connections is so poor you're far better off getting the coach. Mind you that's been the case since December 2004 at least!
 

DT611

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
464
*Yawns*

They've been threatening to close Limerick to Ballybrophy for years, and it still isn't likely to happen any time soon.

I too don't know why they bothered re-opening Western Rail Corridor, that was a huge waste of money. Keeping Waterford to Rosslare open would have been a far better use of money!

Rail in Ireland is poorly used, full stop, outside the county of Dublin. Northern Ireland fare better, but then rail fares are so much better up there. So many areas in the Republic of Ireland (note I use the full name here in this sentence to clarify which part of the country I refer to) need better information systems on their stations. I found this a major pain when I covered the country's railways, I mean come on if the ultra rural shacks on the Heart of Wales line can get decent passenger information screens then so should Ireland.

My opinion is simply to leave just these lines running:

Dublin - Athlone - Galway
Athlone - Westport and Ballina
Portarlington - Cork
Dublin - Belfast
Limerick Junction - Limerick
Dublin - Waterford

The rest have such poor service I wouldn't bother wasting money on them. Dublin to Rosslare by rail for ferry connections is so poor you're far better off getting the coach. Mind you that's been the case since December 2004 at least!


They're is one important thing one must learn about the republic of ireland in relation to railways. No closure will ever be enough. They could close rosslare, sligo, limerick galway (western rail corridor) limerick junction to waterford, limerick ballybroaphy, but it will never be enough. Nothing will change, no savings will ultimately be made (i'm not joking here, this is what we are dealing with) and we will be back here with another review suggesting closure of the rest. The vast majority of the network has potential for development but the ROI having a backward mindset in relation to just about everything means we probably will end up with none of the network outside dublin, and eventually a poorly maintained motor way system (seeing as government can't be bothered to pay for that either dispite being happy to spend no expence spared on building them)
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,579
Location
East Anglia
*Yawns*

They've been threatening to close Limerick to Ballybrophy for years, and it still isn't likely to happen any time soon.

I too don't know why they bothered re-opening Western Rail Corridor, that was a huge waste of money. Keeping Waterford to Rosslare open would have been a far better use of money!

Rail in Ireland is poorly used, full stop, outside the county of Dublin. Northern Ireland fare better, but then rail fares are so much better up there. So many areas in the Republic of Ireland (note I use the full name here in this sentence to clarify which part of the country I refer to) need better information systems on their stations. I found this a major pain when I covered the country's railways, I mean come on if the ultra rural shacks on the Heart of Wales line can get decent passenger information screens then so should Ireland.

The information systems are awful in Ireland. There are too few of them and the ones that are there give you very little information which requires route knowledge and timetable knowledge in a lot of instances for them to be of any proper use.

When it comes to this area the UK is so far ahead it's unreal, and the worst thing is whilst the bigger stations are better, even the main stations in the country have big room for improvement. Connolly especially even the ticket hall screens are poor.

See:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...G/220px-Connolly_Station_Departure_Screen.JPG

The issue with those is they are grouped into three sections and the DART for instance shows the next North and the next South train, however these screens are 5 minutes walk away from the actual platforms and sometimes there will be a train 3-4 minutes behind the next train and by the time it shows on the board it's too late to get to the platform.

This becomes worse if there is a delay, because the delay train stays up and there may be another train to another destination 1 minute later that only appears at the board at the last minute. Then also if a train gets overtaken on route (which is rare to happen, but can) the earlier train will always stay showing first.

A major UK station set-up would help hugely here with more boards showing the next trains. The other issue is that table of departure screens between platforms are almost non existent. And even then, it only shows the destination, platform and train, none of the second line you often get on the UK system to tell you extra information.

Get off a train at Platform 6&7 at Connolly? Walk all the way to Platform 4 to see a table of departure summary. Want to see a platform information board for Platform 4? Sure. Walk all the way from the back of the train which you come at from 6&7 to the front of it to see the single screen right at the front of the train.

That's before you get started on the ultra thin on detail platform screens which are rifle throughout the network which just are a horizontal two line screen with huge font showing the next train and in how many minutes it is due (in most stations, it doesn't even show what the time of the train is, just simply in how many minutes it will arrive) and normally some kind of lacking in detail statement constantly scrolling as "Calling at all stations to <destination>"

With a few stations being refurbished recently that didn't have passenger information systems you'd have thought it was the perfect opportunity to start improving this. What did they do? Buy the same screens they have used since the 90s, but with White LED and a bigger font for the time instead of red LED with a slightly higher resolution.
 
Last edited:

Techniquest

Veteran Member
Joined
19 Jun 2005
Messages
21,674
Location
Nowhere Heath
Oh those screens are annoying at Connolly. Heuston's ones are better, but far from perfect.

Why Ireland insists on running its railways so poorly is beyond me. It's not an issue unique to Ireland, granted, but it's especially poor in Ireland. Even Vasteras in Sweden manages to have decent information screens, I don't have a photo to prove my point sadly. Belgium is not good for PIS in my experience mind, however in the 3 and a half years since my last visit it *may* have improved. Rural Luxembourg was also behind the times in 2013 when I went, but I didn't expect it to be amazing.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,214
Location
Torbay
They've been threatening to close Limerick to Ballybrophy for years, and it still isn't likely to happen any time soon.

Ballybrophy to Limerick is about 8km shorter via Nenagh than via Thurles, albeit the branch is a slow route. There must be some scope for speed improvements however and a new curve at Ballybrophy could allow the junction station there to close and Dublin - Limerick direct trains to be rerouted via Nenagh instead of Thurles, all calling at Roscrea and Nenagh en route. That would be a step change in service, a through train from Dublin for the first time in decades I guess. I would close the other intermediate stations on the branch, except possibly Castleconnel ('Limerick Parkway' potential) to help speed up the journey, which is nearly an hour longer than via Thurles).

My opinion is simply to leave just these lines running:

Dublin - Athlone - Galway
Athlone - Westport and Ballina
Portarlington - Cork
Dublin - Belfast
Limerick Junction - Limerick
Dublin - Waterford

The rest have such poor service I wouldn't bother wasting money on them. Dublin to Rosslare by rail for ferry connections is so poor you're far better off getting the coach. Mind you that's been the case since December 2004 at least!

I agree as a ferry link it's next to useless today but the Dublin - Rosslare line could be cut back to Wexford, retaining almost all its current utility, and patronage I would hazard a guess. That would avoid the awkward and time consuming street running along the quay, and the hour or so saving on a round trip might allow some strengthening of service frequency north of Wexford with the same quota of rolling stock and crew.

Kerry would be particularly displeased with you notion of depriving the county of all its rail services, especially as they have yet to see any motorways!
 
Last edited:

Techniquest

Veteran Member
Joined
19 Jun 2005
Messages
21,674
Location
Nowhere Heath
When you said Kerry I immediately thought of a colleague at work :lol:

Dublin to Limerick via Nenagh had direct services only a few years ago on a trial basis, certainly there was one from Limerick on weekdays only at silly o'clock. I went to Limerick especially to do that train, including a long walk from the Travelodge way out of town. I should have a trip report somewhere in my trip report thread...It was an expensive trip just to do the connecting line at Ballybrophy!
 

DT611

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
464
Ballybrophy to Limerick is about 8km shorter via Nenagh than via Thurles, albeit the branch is a slow route. There must be some scope for speed improvements however and a new curve at Ballybrophy could allow the junction station there to close and Dublin - Limerick direct trains to be rerouted via Nenagh instead of Thurles, all calling at Roscrea and Nenagh en route. That would be a step change in service, a through train from Dublin for the first time in decades I guess. I would close the other intermediate stations on the branch, except possibly Castleconnel ('Limerick Parkway' potential) to help speed up the journey, which is nearly an hour longer than via Thurles).

They're has been a direct service provided in the past couple of years however as the branch is so slow it was little used. The problem is that because the branch has been left to rot for so long it would require huge investment to bring it up to standard, which sadly won't be given. It didn't have to be this way but when nobody stands up for the railway including the operator it's not surprising we are where we are. In an ideal world i would agree that if needs be close the stations bar nenagh and shut ballybroaphy and implement a direct curve and divert limerick trains via a brought up to standard branch but i can't see anything else bar closure for the branch now, followed by another review in a few years suggesting more of the same.

I agree as a ferry link it's next to useless today but the Dublin - Rosslare line could be cut back to Wexford, retaining almost all its current utility, and patronage I would hazard a guess. That would avoid the awkward and time consuming street running along the quay, and the hour or so saving on a round trip might allow some strengthening of service frequency north of Wexford with the same quota of rolling stock and crew.

Unfortunately not. The time saved from traveling to rosslare and back wouldn't be enough to allow an increase in frequency from wexford. Realistically they're would be little to no financial savings from closing it either. As i said before, in ireland we get nothing in return for closures, just more closures.

Kerry would be particularly displeased with you notion of depriving the county of all its rail services, especially as they have yet to see any motorways!

Absolutely. However mallow tralee has been proposed for closure before and i suspect it will be again. It's just a case of when, even though usage is good by all accounts.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,242
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Ireland is a place that like Wales would benefit from a single integrated public transport system comprising bus and rail, with a single national zonal fare system. And it'd be much easier to do it in Ireland as it's nationalised anyway.
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,579
Location
East Anglia
Ireland is a place that like Wales would benefit from a single integrated public transport system comprising bus and rail, with a single national zonal fare system. And it'd be much easier to do it in Ireland as it's nationalised anyway.

On the surface yes, it should be, in practice it's not so simple though :)

Considering the fact the bus companies that operate almost all of the city services in the entire country and the Rail company are in common ownership and have been for decades you would think this would not be a problem. However an independent regulator had to be set up to force them to work together.

Today the Phoenix Park Tunnel finally opened in Ireland due to the regulators persistence after many many years of Irish Rail claiming it was not possible and could not be done. The problem is in Ireland the bus and rail companies very much like to look after themselves rather than the bigger picture.

As for the fare system, I totally agree with you on that, but again it required a regulator once more to have any proper kind of cross mode discount, ticketing or full smart card scheme because the companies were worried about about diminishing their own farebox revenue to a sister company, among other things.

The regulator for example created a route planner that includes all operators in the state offering public transport services and asked for the state companies to use it to give an integrated journey planning and information portal in an effort to build a TFL style website with centralized information, however the big three state companies rejected this and developed their own omitting other companies from the planner.

Street maps were created and downloadable maps by the regulator and an integrated real time app that shows all information was created. This was widely advertised and promoted. A few weeks later the operating companies started heavily promoting their own application and started creating their own almost identical maps (having not done any for 10 years) with the other operators removed.

Essentially unlike London, the operators are bigger than the system, the problem is in Ireland despite the fact Dublin Bus, Irish Rail and Bus Eireann are public companies they treat their brands as commercial assets, so are worried about their brands being eroded by a fully centralized system, being replaced by a TFL style organisation and at the end of the day the big three state companies are always going to put preserving their brands ahead of a fully integrated transport system.

Transport is used much more as a political football in Ireland than it is in the UK and the unions (partly because of the dominance of the three operators) have far more power over what happens and the companies are loathe to work with the regulator who is trying to bind them all together to work as some kind of structured and integrated system, because they want to function as a fully independent business.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh those screens are annoying at Connolly. Heuston's ones are better, but far from perfect.

I don't think the ones at Heuston are much better, but because of the fact that there are far less trains running through there, they don't have shortcomings to the same degree as the ones in Connolly has, although it has the same number of screens as Connolly near the gates without divisions.

Ideally what Connolly needs in the main hall is to replace the 7 LED screen bank above the gates with 10 LED screens which are not divided into sections and just simply list the next 10 trains. The way it is now with 4 sections rather than being time based is extremely poor. Dividing departure boards into 4 sections when there is only 7 boards in the busiest station in the state is beyond silly.

At the moment you have the DART section, which is two screens, the left most one always shows the next North service and the right one shows the next South. You then have three commuter screens and two intercity. The big issue with this is that is you can have a commuter screen or intercity screen showing a train in over an hours time whilst a DART service to Howth that is in 4 minutes time is not showing because it's hidden behind another service to the Malahide branch which is 4 minutes late.

Personally my favoured setup for platforms would be to have banks of 3 screens on 6 and 7 since they are the by far heaviest used platforms. When you enter the platforms from the staircase I'd have a portrait board on the right showing Platform 6 next train, in the middle a table of departures and on the left showing next train Platform 7 and repeat this same set-up half way down.

You'd then end the farcical situation which you have now where you get off Platform 6/7 and have to walk all the way around to Platform 4 to find a list of departures and then work out actually you may have to go back to 6&7 to actually catch that train, you'd have better on platform information for all of the trains that arrive with a full list of stops and in times of disruption you can use the middle board to flash up messages and notices.

For Platforms 1,2,3,4 I'd stick a portrait board right at the front of them showing the stopping pattern, and another one half way down each platform. Platform 5 would gain a portrait LED board at the entrance to it and another one half way down it. Next to Platform 2 there is a wall, so I'd stick a table of departures there, and Platform 4 there is a wall so I'd stick another one there. The link corridor that goes from platforms 4&5 to 6&7 would also get a table of departures and there would be one next to the booking office as well.
 
Last edited:

Hornet

Member
Joined
16 Jul 2013
Messages
724
Ireland is a place that like Wales would benefit from a single integrated public transport system comprising bus and rail, with a single national zonal fare system. And it'd be much easier to do it in Ireland as it's nationalised anyway.

You are talking about Ireland here. The Government here could not run a bath! The unions will not allow a single integrated public transport system here, as it would upset their cozy cartels. The Management are the same, protecting their own little fiefdoms. I was privy to the prolonged gestation of the Leap Card in Dublin. Dublin Bus Management fought long and hard against it, and it took over a decade to get to a point where all side agreed to implement Leap in Dublin. As for the Nenagh line, the competition from Bus Operators like, Bus Eireann, Dublin Coach and JJ Kavanagh made it surplus to requirements a long time ago.
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,579
Location
East Anglia
I was privy to the prolonged gestation of the Leap Card in Dublin. Dublin Bus Management fought long and hard against it, and it took over a decade to get to a point where all side agreed to implement Leap in Dublin.

I'd be curious to hear more of that! I heard on the grapevine that one of the issues with Dublin Bus was that they did not agree with a smart-card because the credit loaded on the card could potentially be used for people to travel using different travel companies and they were worried that this would lead to some revenue abstraction? Was that the case or indeed just a rumour?

You are talking about Ireland here. The Government here could not run a bath! The unions will not allow a single integrated public transport system here, as it would upset their cozy cartels. The Management are the same, protecting their own little fiefdoms.

Personally from knowing a couple of people who know people who work for the National Transport Authority some of them are just as frustrated as the customers. They wanted Transport for Ireland to be the unifying brand like TFL is for London and to be the central resource in charge of route planners, fare systems, information, online presence etc with the operators just operating the services, much like London.

However they have met lots of opposition from unions, management and staff or the state companies who are acting in their own interests. This shows you that a fully public owned public transport system does not always lead to a service being run for the public. Despite the fact the operators are operated as public owned companies, they very much want to look after their own commercial interests, the trouble is in Ireland the operators are more powerful than the overall system.
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,579
Location
East Anglia
I can't help but think that that could be solved by the Government making them into one company a la Northern Ireland!

Technically they are one company at a parent level. Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus and Irish Rail are all part of C.I.E.

The whole idea in forming Transport for Ireland was an effort to bring everything together under one name and leave just the operators to operate services as subcontractors, very similar to how TFL operates. TFI would take over ticketing, information, street displays, online presence, journey planning etc and everything would be fully integrated and even a single livery like London.

Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann between them operates almost 95% of bus and coach routes in the country and all of these routes are deemed as nonviable and requiring subsidy (save for DB route 747 and Bus Eireann routes branded Expressway). They refused to comply with any of this on the basis that it would lead to the Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann brand being diminished and this must be retained at all costs, this is backed both by management and unions.

What it does show you, that despite popular rhetoric in the UK, a publicly owned transport system is not always as perfect as some people seem to think it is, whilst in theory a publicly owned system will always put the public interests ahead of everything else, that is not always the case and people can exploit the position of such companies for their own gain, especially when that operator has a virtual monopoly.

Perhaps not brave enough.

It's not about being brave enough, the simple fact is that it would lead to all out strikes and every bus and train for the vast majority of people in the country being brought to a standstill since they control 95% of the transport in the entire country and are not willing to let that power go or allow their brands to be lost to an overall brand which would result in the transfer of control from some local manager and the unions to someone else.

A virtual monopoly is able to stand up to any attempts to force it to do what it is told by the government, especially when they are backed up by a heavily unionised workforce in a country which is more to the left of the political spectrum than the UK and are happy to go on strike for days and weeks if necessary to get their own way, it's no water off their backs. The LUAS strike went on for over 2 months.
 

Hornet

Member
Joined
16 Jul 2013
Messages
724
I'd be curious to hear more of that! I heard on the grapevine that one of the issues with Dublin Bus was that they did not agree with a smart-card because the credit loaded on the card could potentially be used for people to travel using different travel companies and they were worried that this would lead to some revenue abstraction? Was that the case or indeed just a rumour?

This is the case. As you may be aware Dublin Bus are the primary providers of services in the city. There are a couple of Private Companies that operate services into Dublin (Gray Line and Swords Express are two that come to mind), who were involved in discussions about Leap. Swords Express wanted to operate limited stop services from Swords which would take revenue from Dublin Bus routes 41(A/B/C), the majority of which went via the Airport. Gray Lines also operated a village service to Tallaght which had no direct Dublin Bus rival. Even so Dublin Bus saw this as taking revenue from various parts of the route where Dublin Bus had operations. As is the case over here it was deemed that any direct competition even over parts of routes were seen as an attack on Dublin Bus revenue, hence the drawn out "consultations".

Today Leap is used on Dublin Bus, Swords Express, Flybus and Dublin Coach on their Greater Dublin services. Dublin Bus went head to head with Swords Express via the Port Tunnel with a limited stop service, but that service has since been discontinued. Dublin Bus put some services out to tender, (Services like the 17, 18, 75 etc). Non of the services tendered went into the City Centre. Because of the threat of strike action by Dublin Bus drivers, the tendered services were put back into the Dublin Bus fold, (a cowardly action by Dublin Bus Management and the Government).

The subvention for Dublin Bus is around 27%. LUAS is operated by Transdev who are paid €100,000 a day by the National Transport Authority to operate the service. Transdev pay the National Transport Authority €150,000 a day in fares from which the €100,000 back to Transdev is paid from. LUAS is a fully commercial service which has no subvention.

Percentage wise I believe Iarnrod Eireann get more subvention per head of population than the UK Rail System gets. A lot of that money is wasted in grossly inefficient Management and Working Practices, but you can understand why from my previous observations.

Finally if you want to see how not to run a Public Transport system come to Ireland. Bus Eireann are having rings run around them by the plethora of well run, comfortable Private Operators, many of whom offer Leap Card facilities for their longer distance services, (Wexford Bus being one).
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,579
Location
East Anglia
This is the case.

It doesn't surprise me. I know a decent amount about regulation and the way it's structured there, but not all of the history.

I don't understand a lot about the unions there however, since on one hand they are arguing that a privately operated system would lead to vested interests getting in the way of providing a high level of service that customers come to expect, but the service they are providing they are putting their own vested interests in front of as well. Unfortunately the impression I get of Ireland when I've been there and everything I've heard, is public service and public companies basically are little more than groups of people who look after themselves and each other rather than serving the public.

As you may be aware Dublin Bus are the primary providers of services in the city. There are a couple of Private Companies that operate services into Dublin (Gray Line and Swords Express are two that come to mind), who were involved in discussions about Leap. Swords Express wanted to operate limited stop services from Swords which would take revenue from Dublin Bus routes 41(A/B/C), the majority of which went via the Airport.

I remember as well that Swords Express took a court case in relation to the conduct of Dublin Bus in relation to some routes and how the licensing was handled and there was one company that claimed that Dublin Bus was flooding corridors with buses, contrary to the timetable behind and ahead of competitors in order to try and push them out of business to make them nonviable. I know the Swords one went to court but I don't know about the other one.

Dublin Bus put some services out to tender, (Services like the 17, 18, 75 etc). Non of the services tendered went into the City Centre. Because of the threat of strike action by Dublin Bus drivers, the tendered services were put back into the Dublin Bus fold.

The routes were put out to Tender by the National Transport Authority but the process is now running years behind schedule but has not been scrapped as such yet. The problem is that the unions don't want to play ball with this and this was part of the reason behind the recent Dublin Bus strike where they got a pay increase.

Originally there was plans to TUPE staff across from Dublin Bus to other private companies if drivers marked in on routes were won by other companies. However the drivers did not want to TUPE across to another company in fear that they would lose lots of their benefits, job security and other things which they enjoy being part of Dublin Bus, so the contracts had to be changed to say that no staff would have to transfer and could stay with Dublin Bus.

The problem with this now is that Dublin Bus would then be left with a lot of staff who they may not have work for because they have lost routes but still have the staff that operated them. Now what has happened is the trade unions want the cost of labour excluded from any tender bids that would be put forward by private companies and they also want the state to require the new operator to build their own depots as well.

The state companies can bid for these contracts and with the staff, the knowledge of the routes and takings and fare data and with depots already built free of charge by the state they have a head start on any private who makes a bid. Sure Dublin Bus has a huge cost base much higher than any private, but the most of that is down to wages being high in the company and if the unions get the cost of labour taken out of the tender, where privates would certainly undercut them and the state companies also don't have to invest in depots, it makes it pretty likely that Dublin Bus will win the tender.

Percentage wise I believe Iarnrod Eireann get more subvention per head of population than the UK Rail System gets. A lot of that money is wasted in grossly inefficient Management and Working Practices, but you can understand why from my previous observations.

I checked their most recent accounts, wasn't able to break it down into who is paid what for which job, but the average pay there is €55k, not sure how that would compare with UK TOCs if you include everyone in it and also they have to look after infrastructure too.

The biggest bugbear I have with ineffiences is on the DART and Clontarf Depot. There is a train depot 50m from a train station near the city centre, The train stops at the depot, the drivers change (during peak hour trains) everyone on the train gets delayed by 4 mins waiting for the drivers to change,, the new driver gets on, drives for 10 seconds and the train stops again and passengers get on and get off at the actual station. There is a clear path from the depot to the station, but still the train has to stop right next to the depot as well. The reverse happens in the other direction, train stops at a station, everyone gets on or off, drives for 10 seconds, stops for 3-4 minutes to change drivers at the depot.

Finally if you want to see how not to run a Public Transport system come to Ireland. Bus Eireann are having rings run around them by the plethora of well run, comfortable Private Operators, many of whom offer Leap Card facilities for their longer distance services, (Wexford Bus being one).

You will be pleased to know that the unions of BE are now calling for these companies to be stripped of their licenses because it is effecting their company too much and it means that they cannot get a pay rise and therefore it must be stopped to preserve the health of BE.

In reality the problem with BE is that their commercial arm is too risk averse, they are very conservative with improving their services and normally will go for a market only when someone else does and the NTA have took actions to stop predatory behavior in this regard to protect operators who invest in innovative services from those who simply want to clone the innovative operators services after they took the initial risk.

For commercial routes, only two operators are permitted (Non stop and stopping routes are considered different routes) and they must not run in a predatory way. For example if Operator A operates at xx:30 past the hour every hour, Operator B cannot operate less than 15 minutes before or 15 minutes after that service. Once the two licenses are gone, no more will be admitted for that route.

For example Aircoach started Dublin to Cork non stop in 2012, for the previous 18 months Bus Eireann kept saying there was no demand for a service such as that. Now Aircoach are running 18 coaches a day in each direction and still needs reliefs at peak time! Another operator got the second license (second to apply) and BE applied third so were rejected. In the end they decided to operate a joint venture with the second applicant.
 

Techniquest

Veteran Member
Joined
19 Jun 2005
Messages
21,674
Location
Nowhere Heath
I don't know much about Dublin Bus, apart from frustrations about waiting on Lower Abbey Street for a 41 to the airport and you can be there for 30+ minutes before one shows up, despite there allegedly being three buses due in that time!

Clontarf depot, been there and experienced such idiocy. Such a thing in the UK would be met with huge outcries and massive threads on this forum!
 

Hornet

Member
Joined
16 Jul 2013
Messages
724
The biggest bugbear I have with ineffiences is on the DART and Clontarf Depot. There is a train depot 50m from a train station near the city centre, The train stops at the depot, the drivers change (during peak hour trains) everyone on the train gets delayed by 4 mins waiting for the drivers to change,, the new driver gets on, drives for 10 seconds and the train stops again and passengers get on and get off at the actual station. There is a clear path from the depot to the station, but still the train has to stop right next to the depot as well. The reverse happens in the other direction, train stops at a station, everyone gets on or off, drives for 10 seconds, stops for 3-4 minutes to change drivers at the depot.

To emphasise your point, Fairview Staff Platform from Clontarf Road Station. (Connolly is in the far distance)
 

Attachments

  • Fairview Staff Platform PH1 (CHOICE) 07.07.11.JPG
    Fairview Staff Platform PH1 (CHOICE) 07.07.11.JPG
    271.1 KB · Views: 63
Last edited:

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,579
Location
East Anglia
I don't know much about Dublin Bus, apart from frustrations about waiting on Lower Abbey Street for a 41 to the airport and you can be there for 30+ minutes before one shows up, despite there allegedly being three buses due in that time!

To be fair, the problem is at the moment that there is a lot of work going on in the city with the new LUAS line being built. Add this to the fact almost all buses going through the city centre go down the same stretch of road, narrow streets and you don't have a great operating environment for a reliable service. However the other things that don't help is the awful dwell time of buses, which is probably the worst I've ever seen in a capital city.

When I worked in Dublin for 3 months my bus journey took 40 minutes to work from where I was staying and it was very common that at least 15 minutes of that would be spent by people getting on and getting off due to the stops being very close together, one door boarding and alighting* , driver interaction being required for large numbers of boarding passengers due to the fare system, it's not a fast service for the most part by and stretch of the imagination!

* They do have many buses with two doors now, however many drivers refuse to use them, despite them having plug doors, a special CCTV camera fitted to them, a mirror and a monitor to show them in the cab. Many drivers refuse to operate them on the basis that if someone falls from them they could be held responsible.The company are unable to force their drivers to do this because of a Labour Court ruling around 20 years ago obtained by the unions that stated that drivers cannot be forced to use the middle doors when it is unsafe. Whether it is deemed unsafe or not is defined as being at a drivers discretion.

Clontarf depot, been there and experienced such idiocy. Such a thing in the UK would be met with huge outcries and massive threads on this forum!

The official grounds is that they cannot cross a track therefore the change has to be made at the depot and not the station. However referencing the photo Hornet posted, the depot is located on both the left and right hand sides of the photo posted. Therefore the storage area on the left hand side could not be reached without crossing the track if this rule was the case.

The worst thing is that a whole bunch of shifts for drivers finish at around 5pm. So almost every rush hour DART does exactly the same,
 
Last edited:

Hornet

Member
Joined
16 Jul 2013
Messages
724
I don't know much about Dublin Bus, apart from frustrations about waiting on Lower Abbey Street for a 41 to the airport and you can be there for 30+ minutes before one shows up, despite there allegedly being three buses due in that time!

In the main, Dublin Bus service patterns haven't much changed since I first started using them in 1985. On some routes they are at a lower level than 1985 despite the massive increase in housing and retail. I was once within walking distance of 5 services. That's down to two. And to think some Londoners give out about their services!
 

Techniquest

Veteran Member
Joined
19 Jun 2005
Messages
21,674
Location
Nowhere Heath
Is the LUAS extension being welcomed over there? I'm rather looking forward to it being completeted so I have a good excuse to get back over there. Some proper Guiness would have to be sampled too of course ;)

The Dublin Bus thing doesn't surprise me at all. My experience of the 41 (and to a lesser extent the 16) is that until it gets reasonably close to the city centre (so within 1.5 miles of it) it's not all that bad for loading and unloading. Obviously at the airport it takes a while to load up as it's surprising how many people realise it's a far better value journey than the express bus/coach. Once you hit the city centre it's almost quicker to walk!

I just hope the trams won't be permanently stuck in traffic trams when they reach O'Connell Street!
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,579
Location
East Anglia
Is the LUAS extension being welcomed over there? I'm rather looking forward to it being completeted so I have a good excuse to get back over there. Some proper Guiness would have to be sampled too of course ;)

There are some murmurings that Dublin Bus are unhappy about the effect that the line and the revised road layout would have on traffic and on bus journeys as well because the track will mean that some roads will lose a lane or two or traffic which will either have to go down narrower roads with less lanes or be redirected elsewhere which could lead to greater congestion.

Also there is clearly going to be an element of re configuring of the bus routes and services to allow for the fact there is going to be some modal shift from bus to tram when the line opens next year which is expect to have a minor effect on bus passenger numbers and in the past Dublin Bus have been historically very poor at adapting their services to LUAS lines/extensions.

Generally it's being welcomed by most people who use public transport on a regular basis who will benefit from it, however the car park owners and the likes of Dublin Bus who might lose a small amount of customers and the private car drivers are less in favor of it.

I just hope the trams won't be permanently stuck in traffic trams when they reach O'Connell Street!

Perhaps I am wrong here, but the trams will have a dedicated lane and O'Connell Street will only have Northbound trams, the southbound will go down another street, a rare case of not shoving everything down O'Connell Street!

https://8fd89272520f28b59d77-37ddf8...Pack-Dawson-Northbound-Update-1-724x10241.jpg
 
Last edited:

Techniquest

Veteran Member
Joined
19 Jun 2005
Messages
21,674
Location
Nowhere Heath
Oh that is good news, do we have an expected opening date yet?

Looking like 2017 could be fun, and I would love to see all these made into reality for next year's grand plans:

Dublin (LUAS and of course Guiness)
Stockholm (Metro clearance)
Vienna (U-Bahn clearance)
Norway (just anything I can fit in!)

Some of that could realistically be squeezed into one week off, hmm...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top