Irish Rail - Stations under review

[Hornet]

Over 20% of Iarnrod Eireann Station could be closed due to lack of patronage.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...s-31-stations-under-full-review-30513603.html

Rosslare Europort is probably the most significant for UK - Ireland Rail/Sail users, given that Bus Eireann services to Dublin were decimated a couple of years ago (gone from one every 2 hours to one a day, weekdays only).

For Information the Rosslare to Waterford line which was "mothballed" a few years back contributed just 2% of revenue for the line through the farebox. 98% of the lines cost was through Government subvention. Limerick to Ballybrophy via Nenagh, Waterford to Limerick Junction and Ennis to Galway are in the most precarious position, regards line closure with the Manulla Junction to Ballina only saved due to a viable freight operation. Personally IE are like Dublin Bus. Semi State bodies with incompetent management, complemented by an inept Government, who refuse to restructure their monolithic and highly unproductive charges in looking overseas at best practices and introducing those practices into IE and DB. The 11 year gestation of the Leap Card, with DB's hostility towards it, and the dog's dinner of a roll out is a testiment to the inept management that pervades Irish semi states as a whole.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Would help if there was a list of stations, but in all fairness you could probably guess most of them.

The lines via Clonmel and Nenagh aren't remotely surprising, but I would be intrigued to know what the others were. Rosslare is an interesting one - with just 4/5tpd I wonder if it's feasible that south of Wexford could close altogether. I assume the rest are constituted by individual stations such as Attymon, Woodlawn, Collooney etc.

 

[Hornet]

Would help if there was a list of stations, but in all fairness you could probably guess most of them.

The lines via Clonmel and Nenagh aren't remotely surprising, but I would be intrigued to know what the others were. Rosslare is an interesting one - with just 4/5tpd I wonder if it's feasible that south of Wexford could close altogether. I assume the rest are constituted by individual stations such as Attymon, Woodlawn, Collooney etc.

Will be doing some research to find out the 31 indicated. I don't think IE would want people to know which Stations are affected, (it's the way Government and Semi States operate over here). At least the ORR provide an excellent spreadsheet for Network Rail Station's entrance and exit figures. I have used the downloadable xls. spreadsheet for checking purposes against my UK Station photo project that I have all but completed.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Will be doing some research to find out the 31 indicated. I don't think IE would want people to know which Stations are affected, (it's the way Government and Semi States operate over here). At least the ORR provide an excellent spreadsheet for Network Rail Station's entrance and exit figures. I have used the downloadable xls. spreadsheet for checking purposes against my UK Station photo project that I have all but completed.

Indeed, I have spent many an hour in the past trying to find any form of station usage figures for either IE or NIR, with no luck at all online. However the first passenger census, held in 2012, revealed the following patronage per day (on the day of the census only):

Dublin Connolly	27,605
Dublin Pearse	22,583
Dublin Heuston	16,748
Tara Street	14,527
Dun Laoghaire	6,637
Cork Kent	6,351
Bray 		5,896
Grand Canal D	5,658
Lansdowne Road	5,396
Blackrock	4,752

17 had 100-200
31 had <100

NI's five busiest are GVS, Central, Bangor, Lisburn and Lurgan.

That's literally all I can find!

 

[Hornet]

Indeed, I have spent many an hour in the past trying to find any form of station usage figures for either IE or NIR, with no luck at all online. However the first passenger census, held in 2012, revealed the following patronage per day (on the day of the census only):

Dublin Connolly	27,605
Dublin Pearse	22,583
Dublin Heuston	16,748
Tara Street	14,527
Dun Laoghaire	6,637
Cork Kent	6,351
Bray 		5,896
Grand Canal D	5,658
Lansdowne Road	5,396
Blackrock	4,752

17 had 100-200
31 had <100

NI's five busiest are GVS, Central, Bangor, Lisburn and Lurgan.

That's literally all I can find!

It looks like the Indo have taken the survey above to show the 31 Stations under threat plus the 2030 Rail Network Strategy Review of lines under threat, (namely the ones indicated above). Pity the full survey is not available. Will try to see if the Lines listed and the map in the Indo (paper copy), showing Stations under equal 31. After all there are only 147 active Stations on IE!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Below is a list of Stations that were in today's Independent which are shown as having less than 100 daily passenger entrances. There are a few very surprising entries. I will indicate in brackets why I feel they suffer from low numbers. All comments are entirely my own based on experience of Irish Rail operations.

The total from the Independent article is 18

ADAMSTOWN [85 entrances] Kildare to Dublin Commuter Station.
(Served by regular Dublin Bus services)

ATTYMON [Less than 100 entrances] Dublin to Galway Station.
(Formerly the Junction Station for Attymon, which is served by regular bus services between Dublin and Galway)

BALLYBROPHY [84 entrances] Dublin to Cork Station.
(Junction Station for Limerick via Nenagh line. Nearest town to Station is Borris-in-Ossory which is served by regular bus services between Dublin and Limerick)

BALLYMOTE [69 entrances] Dublin to Sligo Station.

CARRICK-ON-SUIR [15 entrances] Waterford to Limerick Junction Station.
(One of two under threat lines due to very low usage and high infrastructure cost. Suffered from the loss of Sugar Beet and Cement Traffic on the route. Served by regular bus services between Waterford and Limerick/Cork)

CLONDALKIN [37 entrances] Kildare to Dublin Commuter Station.
(Served by regular Dublin Bus services. This Station was rebuilt on a new site in October 2008)

CLOUGHJORDAN [5 entrances] Ballybrophy to Limerick Station.
(One of two under threat lines due to very low usage and high infrastructure cost. Suffered from the loss of Cement and Shale Traffic on the route)

COLLOONEY [41 entrances] Dublin to Sligo Station.

DROMOD [81 entrances] Dublin to Sligo Station.

GORMANSTOWN [92 entrances] Dublin to Dundalk Station.
(Served by regular bus services between Dublin and Dundalk)

KILCOOLE [23 entrances] Rosslare Europort to Dublin Station.
(Served by regular Dublin Bus services)

MONASTEREVIN [34 entrances] Dublin to Cork Station.
(Served by regular bus services between Portlaoise and Red Cow/Dublin)

NENAGH [5 entrances] Ballybrophy to Limerick Station.
(One of two under threat lines due to very low usage and high infrastructure cost. Suffered from the loss of Cement and Shale Traffic on the route. Served by regular bus services between Dublin and Limerick)


RATHDRUM [94 entrances] Rosslare Europort to Dublin Station.

ROSCREA [15 entrances] Ballybrophy to Limerick Station.
(One of two under threat lines due to very low usage and high infrastructure cost. Suffered from the loss of Cement and Shale Traffic on the route. Served by regular bus services between Dublin and Limerick)

ROSSLARE STRAND [25 entrances] Rosslare Europort to Dublin Station.

ROSSLARE EUROPORT [20 entrances] Rosslare Europort to Dublin Station.

WEXFORD [81 entrances] Rosslare Europort to Dublin Station.
(Served by regular bus services between Wexford and Dublin)

Adamstown and Clondalkin are within the Co Dublin area, but have suffered from both regular Dublin Bus services, and the massive downturn in the Irish Economy. (Kishogue Station in Dublin was built in 2009 at a cost of €6 million but is yet to be opened because there was no money left to build a road to the Station. Also Hansfield Station, built at a cost of €10 million, has only opened recently after a three year delay, after the wrangle about building an approach road was finally sorted and the road built. Also two Green Line LUAS stops which have been built have yet to be opened). Wexford has two bus companies (Bus Eireann and Wexford Bus) which offer a cheaper, more regular and quicker alternative to the Train to reach Dublin. Both stop close to or at the Station.

My personal view of the other 13 Stations that might be included in the review is shown below. Note that this is my own take based on usage, alternatives and political considerations.

BIRDHILL Ballybrophy to Limerick Station.
(One of two under threat lines due to very low usage and high infrastructure cost. Suffered from the loss of Cement and Shale Traffic on the route. Served by regular bus services between Dublin and Limerick)

CAHIR Waterford to Limerick Junction Station.
(One of two under threat lines due to very low usage and high infrastructure cost. Suffered from the loss of Sugar Beet and Cement Traffic on the route. Served by regular bus services between Waterford and Limerick/Cork)

CASTLECONNELL Ballybrophy to Limerick Station.
(One of two under threat lines due to very low usage and high infrastructure cost. Suffered from the loss of Cement and Shale Traffic on the route. Served by regular bus services between Dublin and Limerick)

CLONMEL Waterford to Limerick Junction Station.
(One of two under threat lines due to very low usage and high infrastructure cost. Suffered from the loss of Sugar Beet and Cement Traffic on the route. Served by regular bus services between Waterford and Limerick/Cork)

TIPPERARY Waterford to Limerick Junction Station.
(One of two under threat lines due to very low usage and high infrastructure cost. Suffered from the loss of Sugar Beet and Cement Traffic on the route. Served by regular bus services between Waterford and Limerick, and Dublin and Cork)

ARDRAHAN Galway to Limerick Station.
(Western Rail Corridor opened March 2010 at a cost of €106.5 million. Passenger figures for line around 100 a day currently. Served by regular bus services between Galway and Limerick/Cork)

BALLINA Ballina to Dublin Station.
(Retention of Passenger services tied to ongoing usage of the line by Freight services. If Freight services were to be axed then line costs would equate to the likes of the Ballybrophy to Limerick and Waterford to Limerick Junction routes, and that those losses would be unsubstainable)

CRAUGHWELL Galway to Limerick Station.
(Western Rail Corridor opened March 2010 at a cost of €106.5 million. Passenger figures for line around 100 a day currently. Served by regular bus services between Galway and Limerick/Cork)

FOXFIELD Ballina to Dublin Station.
(Retention of Passenger services tied to ongoing usage of the line by Freight services. If Freight services were to be axed then line costs would equate to the likes of the Ballybrophy to Limerick and Waterford to Limerick Junction routes, and that those losses would be unsubstainable)

GORT Galway to Limerick Station.
(Western Rail Corridor opened March 2010 at a cost of €106.5 million. Passenger figures for line around 100 a day currently. Served by regular bus services between Galway and Limerick/Cork)

MANULLA JUNCTION (EXCHANGE PLATFORM) Ballina/Westport to Dublin Station.
(If the Ballina line was to lose its passenger services then this Station would close, as it only serves allow for the change out of Westport Trains into/out of the Ballina Branch Train. There is no public access from the Platform to the nearby road)

ENNISCORTHY Rosslare Europort to Dublin Station.
(Like Wexford, Enniscorthy has two bus companies (Bus Eireann and Wexford Bus) which offer a cheaper, more regular and quicker alternative to the Train to reach Dublin. Both stop close to the Station).

WOODLAWN Dublin to Galway Station.

I can forsee Dublin Commuter services operating between Gorey and Drogheda/Dundalk, with the line south of Gorey being abandoned to the superior services that Bus Eireann/Wexford Bus can offer. A worst case scenario would be closure south of Wicklow, with Wicklow diesel commuter services to Dundalk/Drogheda/Maynooth being enhanced. Belfast, Galway, Limerick and Cork all suffer from high quality, regular and far cheaper Bus Companies (Bus Eireann, Dublin Coach, Go Bus, Citylink, Goldline and J J Kavanagh). Also Motorway links enable those companies to beat the Trains on time, (except during rush hour).
The West of Ireland (Cork, Mallow to Tralee) will see no closures due to the hold that the Healy-Rae political dynasty seems to have on the rest of the country. (Parish Pump Politics at it's worst). Two other Stations that I can forsee being under threat would be Ennis and Sixmilebridge. Both are on the Western Rail Corridor although Ennis was open before the Western Rail Corridor was commissioned. Heavy flooding has caused this section of line to be closed several times. Ennis is served by regular bus services between Galway and Limerick/Cork and Sixmilebridge has a bus service to Limerick.

Thats my 10 cents worth. Others might have a different view on various aspects of the details above.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Interesting, thanks!

I was reading literally last week of plans to create access to Manulla Junction from a nearby road to expand its function from transfer only. Surprised that Ballina is in contention, ditto the Cork Main Line stations, but little else there is unexpected.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ah, having read again I see Ballina is only your prediction, but I would still expect more than half of those guesses to be correct. It really does say a lot about the state of Ireland's rail system when a city the size of Limerick could eventually only justify an hourly shuttle service to a nearby junction!

 

[DT611]

none of these would be a surprise to me sadly, a couple of things from my perspective.
1. both limerick waterford/rosslare and limerick ballybroaphy via nenagh were more or less left to rot with the passenger service ran down to irrelevance, as IE were only interested in the freight services, i do believe the likes of clonmell on the limerick waterford line for example do have a potential market for a good rail service but that would have meant actually investing in the line but considering the network as a whole didn't get enough to improve it to competitive speeds this linewas getting nothing.
2. ennis athenry, shouldn't have been reopened, limerick ennis while it would be nice for it to get more users did okay before the ennis athenry reopening but whether the reopening has effected limerick ennis passengers and turned them away via time table recasts and so on i don't know.
3. now to my haunt, the rosslare line, kilcoole is only served by 2 3 trains a day, the first early morning service and i think the early evening rosslare and following wexford service. i have used the bus services and i personally don't find them superior myself all though if you have to endure a 2900 commuter railcar on this line which happens a good bit i can see why some will run for the bus instead. i think only the non stoping services beat the train on a good run anyway but they are frequent compared to the train at least after the morning services with 4/5 hour gaps between dublin bound rail services, rosslare/wexford bound service gaps aren't 2 bad but a 2 hourly service or 3 hourly would be nice but sadly no service improvements will be had, unless loops were put in but as said above the rest of the network didn't get enough investment when we had the money to improve speeds so this line wasn't going to get such infrastructure improvements. feel free to coment agree disagree whatever. anyway thanks op for bringing this link to my attention

 

[Hornet]

The Waterford line was never been properly marketed, and the lack of a coherent timetable for the Dublin Rosslare Europort service, tying into the Irish sea Ferry services should be a source of embarrasment to IE. Moving Europort Station away from the Ferry Terminal to its present spot (whatever the argument about Port Security and level crossing operations during Ferry loading) was a negative move. The failure to invest on the Waterford line when the sugar beet industry was at its height was criminal. CIE/IE should have looked at the way BR handled the cost reduction regimes introduced in the '80's for the West Highland and Far North lines. The upgrading to Motorway standard of the N11 is only going to harm any potential increase to Passenger traffic from the Port to Dublin. IMO the upgraded N25 has killed the Waterford line. Its 'mothballing' is just a cosmetic exercise. The only chance that both Waterford-Europort-Dublin lines have, again IMO is an aggresive move to introduce Container services from Europort and introduce a form of 'Light Railway Order' for those services to operate over the Waterford line. But seeing the parlous state of Irish Freight operations there is more chance of an Ireland Wales Rail link being built than than Europort converting into a mini Felixstowe or Tilbury.

Regards Kilcoole, granted its a long journey into Dublin City Centre on a Dublin Bus 84 then 4 (or DART) from Blackrock. But the fact that there is an hourly service from the village centre, plus the facilities at Kilcoole Station are limited, (and its a fair old stroll down to the Station from the village), limits the potential for Passenger growth from the Station.

IE will continue to struggle, especially against the Bus/Coach Companies who can use the upgraded (and underused) Motorway/Trunk Road Network. Only Killarney/Tralee, Westport/Ballina and Sligo services seem to have the edge in terms of travel time. Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford, Wexford and Belfast are beaten on time, and regularity of service by the Coach Companies. Also they have the major advantage of serving Dublin Airport.

Do I think that there are areas where IE should be investing and aggresively lobbying Government? Yes. A fixed heavy Rail Link from Clongriffin to Dublin Airport and up to Lissenhall is a must and could be built at a tenth of the cost of Metro North. Also the Phoenix Park tunnel should be upgraded so that West Dublin/Kildare commuter services could access Docklands and Connolly, (with Electrification to Kildare, M3 Parkway, Maynooth, Drogheda and Wicklow). Forget about the Interconnector, (a vain glorious Project), put Metro West on the long finger and consider small but strategic extensions to LUAS. I cannot see any Towns or City outside the Pale worthy of Rail investment for the forseeable future. I worked in the RPA (Railway Procurement Agency) for several years and some of the proposed LUAS/Rail projects were, frankly nuts! Suffice to say that if someone had said about re-introducing Trams to Blessington it would have been favourably looked at. (LUAS to Lucan, Rathfarnham and Trams in Galway were all on the Drawing Board).

 

[DT611]

The Waterford line was never been properly marketed, and the lack of a coherent timetable for the Dublin Rosslare Europort service, tying into the Irish sea Ferry services should be a source of embarrasment to IE. Moving Europort Station away from the Ferry Terminal to its present spot (whatever the argument about Port Security and level crossing operations during Ferry loading) was a negative move. The failure to invest on the Waterford line when the sugar beet industry was at its height was criminal.

TBH i don't think security was the issue at all, i'd imagine the boys down there on customs know what they are doing and would be able to work with IE (after all the railway went to the peer at one stage) loading and unloading of trucks though may have been used to put pressure on IE though all though a good manager would have just told whoever to get lost, or maybe that would have been just me if i was in charge.

The upgrading to Motorway standard of the N11 is only going to harm any potential increase to Passenger traffic from the Port to Dublin. IMO the upgraded N25 has killed the Waterford line. Its 'mothballing' is just a cosmetic exercise. The only chance that both Waterford-Europort-Dublin lines have, again IMO is an aggresive move to introduce Container services from Europort and introduce a form of 'Light Railway Order' for those services to operate over the Waterford line. But seeing the parlous state of Irish Freight operations there is more chance of an Ireland Wales Rail link being built than than Europort converting into a mini Felixstowe or Tilbury.

i agree sadly, all to do with politics TBH, all about roads, private tole companies/governments little friends rather then an integrated transport system of road and rail working together (i know i really am cynical aren't i)

Regards Kilcoole, granted its a long journey into Dublin City Centre on a Dublin Bus 84 then 4 (or DART) from Blackrock. But the fact that there is an hourly service from the village centre, plus the facilities at Kilcoole Station are limited, (and its a fair old stroll down to the Station from the village), limits the potential for Passenger growth from the Station.

absolutely true, the morning and evening commuter? well i don't know what i could call them but they stop at extra stops the other rosslare services don't, are probably the only services that would be used

IE will continue to struggle, especially against the Bus/Coach Companies who can use the upgraded (and underused) Motorway/Trunk Road Network. Only Killarney/Tralee, Westport/Ballina and Sligo services seem to have the edge in terms of travel time.

and they don't have to fully fund the infrastructure unlike IE, they get to share it with other vehicles, of course all this could have been solved by IE and government realising not everyone wants road transport and realizing that the rail network is something to invest in rather then to be used as a political football to push the agenda of road only transport.

Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford, Wexford and Belfast are beaten on time, and regularity of service by the Coach Companies. Also they have the major advantage of serving Dublin Airport.

sadly yes, personally nothing the coach companies would do would entice me away from the railway but others are different, which means the lines could be in trouble.

Do I think that there are areas where IE should be investing and aggresively lobbying Government? Yes. A fixed heavy Rail Link from Clongriffin to Dublin Airport and up to Lissenhall is a must and could be built at a tenth of the cost of Metro North. Also the Phoenix Park tunnel should be upgraded so that West Dublin/Kildare commuter services could access Docklands and Connolly, (with Electrification to Kildare, M3 Parkway, Maynooth, Drogheda and Wicklow).

my thinking exactly, i would even consider bringing the cork line up to 125 or more MPH running with the cork services being non stop, and eventually the line being electrified.

Forget about the Interconnector, (a vain glorious Project), put Metro West on the long finger and consider small but strategic extensions to LUAS.

not sure, i suppose ultimately metro west is something we could live without but it shouldn't be completely ruled out, but kept until their is a better case for it, dart underground, i believe this is needed, whether it is needed now i don't know but it is going to be needed eventually.

I cannot see any Towns or City outside the Pale worthy of Rail investment for the forseeable future.

depends on what you mean by rail investment, if your talking about new lines, then after navan i don't think there will be any new lines outside dublin, the current network does need to be invested in though but it isn't going to happen.

I worked in the RPA (Railway Procurement Agency) for several years and some of the proposed LUAS/Rail projects were, frankly nuts! Suffice to say that if someone had said about re-introducing Trams to Blessington it would have been favourably looked at. (LUAS to Lucan, Rathfarnham and Trams in Galway were all on the Drawing Board).

interesting to hear you worked for the RPA, i heard about the "gluas" proposal, and i knew myself the likely hood of it happening was well, nill. now thinking about it, would luas to lucan have been such a bad idea? it would probably have been difficult to build probably.

 

[Hornet]

Right, have found the Irish Rail Heavy Rail Census, from where the Indo got its list of Stations from. The census quoted 31 Stations with less than 100 Entrances/Exits daily and 17 Stations with between 100 and 200 Entrances/Exits daily. (Looking at the survey I would concur with the figure of 31 if you consider that Manulla Junction is an Exchange Platform, and with no public access from/to the Platform, the Entrances/Exits figure is 0, even though 228 Passengers used the Platform to change Trains). The census was conducted on the 15/11/2012 with the census published on the 20/11/2013. There is due to be a further census published in November 2014.

Listed below are the 31 Station that have less than 100 Entrances/Exits daily (figures to be shown in brackets).

MANULLA JUNCTION (EXCHANGE PLATFORM) (0)
ATTYMON (3)
CLOUGHJORDAN (9)
BIRDHILL (10)
CASTLECONNELL (15)
ROSCREA (16)
ARDRAHAN (17)
CAHIR (19)
NENAGH (20)
CARRICK-ON-SUIR (22)
WOODLAWN (23)
GORT (29)
FOXFORD (30)
ROSSLARE EUROPORT (38)
CRAUGHWELL (42)
TIPPERARY (44)
FOTA (53)
FARRANFORE (54)
ROSSLARE (55)
KILCOOLE (57)
BANTEER (63)
THOMASTOWN (72)
CLONMEL (75)
RATHMORE (75)
CARRIGALOE (77)
CLONDALKIN FONTHILL (83)
MONASTEREVIN (89)
MILLSTREET (91)
CLARA (96)
BALLYHAUNIS (97)
COLLOONEY (99)

Listed below are the 17 Station that have between 100 and 200 Entrances/Exits daily (figures to be shown in brackets).

SIXMILEBRIDGE (101)
CASTLEREA (114)
ENNISCORTHY (116)
ROSCOMMON (132)
CLAREMORRIS (136)
BALLINA (145)
WEXFORD (145)
TEMPLEMORE (148)
CHARLEVILLE (157)
BALLYMOTE (159)
CARRIGTWOHILL (164)
DROMOD (175)
BOYLE (176)
GORMANSTOWN (177)
RATHDRUM (186)
ADAMSTOWN (192)
BALLINASLOE (196)

Below is a link to the census:-
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/new...12-published-by-national-transport-authority/

 

[EM2]

I would have thought that lack of patronage is directly linked to lack of service. A number of times I considered getting a train from Dromod or Roscommon when I lived near those stations, but the service was so infrequent that it couldn't get me where I needed to be in time, or I needed to leave there early to get the last train back.
With more services, surely there'd be more patronage?

 

[DT611]

I would have thought that lack of patronage is directly linked to lack of service. A number of times I considered getting a train from Dromod or Roscommon when I lived near those stations, but the service was so infrequent that it couldn't get me where I needed to be in time, or I needed to leave there early to get the last train back.
With more services, surely there'd be more patronage?

i'd agree with this, also competitive speeds are a must, we have a modern fleet yet we don't have good enough infrastructure for the trains to "show us what they can really do" if you get my drift

 

[Eire Sprinter]

Some thoughts/points:

* Reporting in the media of rail statistics should be balanced by appropriate questions such as “Well, why are numbers so low here?; “What should/could the National Transport Authority & Irish Rail do on a short-term/medium-term/long-term to boost usage?”; “Is the timetable unsuitable?” etc… etc…

* In my view competing bus services are not superior. In fact some bus schedules are essentially works of fiction as services never arrive at the times shown even in optimal conditions. “Tight timetabling” only serves to frustrate passengers and cause problems for drivers but in the quest to get a competitive edge it seems not to matter.

* Apart from traditional locations where bus & rail have shared adjacent/same terminals measures to improve bus-rail integration are few and far between. Everyone would benefit if there was some shift in focus to buses complementing the railway.

* There’s a public consultation underway at the Dept of Transport as to a Strategic Framework for Investment in Land Transport.:
http://transport.ie/press-releases/2014/public-consultation-launched-strategic-framework-investment-land-transport


* A heavy rail link to Dublin Airport is a no brainer and one the company is keen on.

* Would favour a commuter service to Navan on the existing line. There were football specials on the line in the 90s, the permanent way has been upgraded. It’s relatively straightforward to do. It’s not impossible to sort paths. Where there’s a will there’s a way.

* The 2% farebox revenue for the South Wexford line was hardly surprising given the farcical unintegrated timetable e.g. evening train departing Waterford just minutes before the arrival of the train from Dublin/Kilkenny because the train crew apparently had to return to Waterford on the 19.00 Rosslare Harbour-Waterford bus. Funny how the Eurolines cross-channel coach can manage full loads on a corridor that roughly corresponds to the rail line (i.e. Cork/Limerick-Waterford-ferry at Rosslare-London) even though slower and less comfortable. How come the railway couldn’t capture this market in recent years?

* When the Cahir Viaduct reopened around a decade ago the enhanced rail service didn’t run through to Rosslare and the trains didn’t particularly well suit commuter times. No point running several trains a day if not one of them even caters for core bread and butter commuter traffic.

* It’s important for everyone who wants to see a balanced transport system in the Ireland of the future to put pen to paper or hand to keyboard as the case may be and make their views known. I once had a very interesting chat with someone who had some really good ideas about things, when I politely suggested the person drop a line or e-mail with the views the response was along the lines of nobody will listen, nothing will change. Understandable sentiments but one does not give up on winning a football match while getting ready in the changing room, no matter how tough the going is if a person gives a shot at something there’s always a chance. Just like the lottery.

* Am all for protecting taxpayer’s money but don’t believe in giving up on things and looking for a cop-out when a decent sustained effort hasn’t been made in the first place.

Ending with a quick look at a few stations and possible measures to grow traffic:

Attymon: no train to Galway after 09.36! If the lunchtime train from Dublin served the station it would allow people get into Galway for a few hours in the evening e.g. after picking up kids from school.

Birdhill: plenty of subsidised community/rural buses operating in the wider area. Killaloe-Ballina is a popular tourist spot yet not a single bus links it to Birdhill station.

Clonmel: a much bigger town than many seem to be aware. Certainly potential here – really needs to be a through service to Dublin at least once a day via Limerick Junction.

Kilcoole: there is no bus link from the area to Wicklow town. The 09.40 ex Connolly & 12.55 return could serve the station thereby enabling travel to Wicklow (and stations further south).

Rosslare stations: I’ve been on trains where the figures quoted in the Census for the whole day have been surpassed by the numbers boarding/alighting a single train.

 

[DT611]

Some thoughts/points:

* Reporting in the media of rail statistics should be balanced by appropriate questions such as “Well, why are numbers so low here?; “What should/could the National Transport Authority & Irish Rail do on a short-term/medium-term/long-term to boost usage?”; “Is the timetable unsuitable?” etc… etc…

* In my view competing bus services are not superior. In fact some bus schedules are essentially works of fiction as services never arrive at the times shown even in optimal conditions. “Tight timetabling” only serves to frustrate passengers and cause problems for drivers but in the quest to get a competitive edge it seems not to matter.

* Apart from traditional locations where bus & rail have shared adjacent/same terminals measures to improve bus-rail integration are few and far between. Everyone would benefit if there was some shift in focus to buses complementing the railway.

* There’s a public consultation underway at the Dept of Transport as to a Strategic Framework for Investment in Land Transport.:
http://transport.ie/press-releases/...strategic-framework-investment-land-transport


* A heavy rail link to Dublin Airport is a no brainer and one the company is keen on.

* Would favour a commuter service to Navan on the existing line. There were football specials on the line in the 90s, the permanent way has been upgraded. It’s relatively straightforward to do. It’s not impossible to sort paths. Where there’s a will there’s a way.

* The 2% farebox revenue for the South Wexford line was hardly surprising given the farcical unintegrated timetable e.g. evening train departing Waterford just minutes before the arrival of the train from Dublin/Kilkenny because the train crew apparently had to return to Waterford on the 19.00 Rosslare Harbour-Waterford bus. Funny how the Eurolines cross-channel coach can manage full loads on a corridor that roughly corresponds to the rail line (i.e. Cork/Limerick-Waterford-ferry at Rosslare-London) even though slower and less comfortable. How come the railway couldn’t capture this market in recent years?

* When the Cahir Viaduct reopened around a decade ago the enhanced rail service didn’t run through to Rosslare and the trains didn’t particularly well suit commuter times. No point running several trains a day if not one of them even caters for core bread and butter commuter traffic.

* It’s important for everyone who wants to see a balanced transport system in the Ireland of the future to put pen to paper or hand to keyboard as the case may be and make their views known. I once had a very interesting chat with someone who had some really good ideas about things, when I politely suggested the person drop a line or e-mail with the views the response was along the lines of nobody will listen, nothing will change. Understandable sentiments but one does not give up on winning a football match while getting ready in the changing room, no matter how tough the going is if a person gives a shot at something there’s always a chance. Just like the lottery.

* Am all for protecting taxpayer’s money but don’t believe in giving up on things and looking for a cop-out when a decent sustained effort hasn’t been made in the first place.

Ending with a quick look at a few stations and possible measures to grow traffic:

Attymon: no train to Galway after 09.36! If the lunchtime train from Dublin served the station it would allow people get into Galway for a few hours in the evening e.g. after picking up kids from school.

Birdhill: plenty of subsidised community/rural buses operating in the wider area. Killaloe-Ballina is a popular tourist spot yet not a single bus links it to Birdhill station.

Clonmel: a much bigger town than many seem to be aware. Certainly potential here – really needs to be a through service to Dublin at least once a day via Limerick Junction.

Kilcoole: there is no bus link from the area to Wicklow town. The 09.40 ex Connolly & 12.55 return could serve the station thereby enabling travel to Wicklow (and stations further south).

Rosslare stations: I’ve been on trains where the figures quoted in the Census for the whole day have been surpassed by the numbers boarding/alighting a single train.

good points, your experience of the rosslare services are the same as me, people quoting low figures when actual fact they are just nonsense, that doesn't say that sometimes services have a low figure at parts of the journey but i've even saw that with the odd dart service off peak. the rosslare limerick cross country corridor was deliberately ran down, i even believe (and i can't prove this but i have heard it) that often no revenue was collected on the rosslare waterford trains, for god sake you would be lucky to see a ticket checker on many trains these days, that would be much better then pointless barriers which do nothing to stop fare evaders, the ticket checker could have other rolls as well, going back to the likes of rosslare waterford limerick corridor, fact is, the NTA couldn't care a less, if they did they would have made suggestions and forced IE to implament them but they just said yes to the closure request for rosslare waterford and they will do the same for waterford limerick and any other closure i suspect (i wonder how many people actually use the replacement bus service) according to a couple of people i've spoken to it doesn't serve a couple of the villages anymore but how true that is i can't say as i don't know, i will try find out more if i can. i actually agree about using the existing line to navan for commuter services (mind you the ripping up of the original line back in the 60s was a moronic idiotic decisian) . however i do believe it eventually should be reinstated if there are places along it which justify a rail service, the services could operate in a kind of (choose relevant shape line) so train goes via clonsilla and back via droghida, and another train does the reverse. probably not doable but its an idea non the less, sadly i don't expect to see passenger services to navan any time soon

 

[Hornet]

Agree that the existing freight line to Navan should be used for an 'experimental' passenger service to gauge demand. It might require legislation akin to the UK's Spellar Act which allowed for Stations and Lines to be opened on an experimental basis to gauge if usage would justify permanent opening. If not then the the Station or Line could be closed without going through formal closure procedures. Navan to M3 Parkway reinstatement has be seriouly hit by the new M3 motorway (which has yet to reach its projected traffic flows). The Western Rail Corridor extension to Claremorris is a non starter.

Regards the point made about lobbying the Transport Department. I have had first hand knowledge when working in the RPA on how closed the Civil Servants and Politicians are to suggestions of changes. The original LUAS consultation report, which was done by a British Consultancy Company, showed that the original route should have run from Tallaght to Sandyford. The Government and Civil Service of the day (I believe Mary O'Rouke was the Minister in charge) looked at the report and in their infinite wisdom decided to bin it and instead go ahead with the two totally seperate lines that we have at present, in effect ignoring the experts and adding to costs. Even during the Celtic Tiger era the BX (Cross City Line) was put on the back burner, as the LUAS extensions, Metro North, Metro West and Interconnector were actively designed and costed. In the end we ended up with three LUAS extensions, complete designs for Metro and Interconnector and very little for Cross City. Now look what is being Constructed! BX Cross City should have been the first line built of the LUAS extensions.

People that I worked with, many of them experts in their fields, actively lobbied Government about the poor value for money Metro and Interconnector were, especially in relation to Construction costs. Per kilometre, Metro North would have been over 5 times more expensive to build than a comparable scheme in Spain! The Government didn't listen then, and it was only the financial meltdown in the country that stopped those highly overinflated priced projects going ahead. That is not investment, thats throwing away money.

The Leap Card was another area that the Government failed in their duty. For eleven years they sat on their hands while Dublin Bus, IE and at a later stage Veolia argued about the minutae of operating the system. Veolia stole a march by issuing their LUAS smart card on the commencement of LUAS services. Dublin Bus looked at introducing their own smart card after this, (two smart cards and no integration, yes, really!). Veolia had experience in integrated ticketing in many places, but were treated by Dublin Bus, (and by association, the Government) as unwanted interlopers. The Government, rather than bang heads together, allowed this intransigence to go on. The fact I took eleven years to sort out speaks volumes about the lack of willingness of Government to intervene in a fundamental part of Urban Transport, that being an Integrated Ticketing System. It's beyond funny.

Finally Transport Interchanges. I can look at one Interchange close to me, Red Cow. This stop was provided with interchange facilities to local bus services. The facility would have allowed Dublin Bus services to Rathcoole, Newcastle and Clondalkin to interchange with LUAS. I believe Dublin Bus were receptive to this until the Smart Card debacle above occured. Dublin Bus have never used the facility. Bus Eireann have rarely used the facility either, prefering to continue using the stops at Newlands Cross, almost a mile further on. Public Transport Integration in microcosm. Simply a joke.

The Government, even when advised by experts, think they know best. Recent history shows how far from reality they are. Veolia have shown how to operate a successful Light Rail system without Government Subvention. Dublin Bus have to be the worst providers of City buses in Western Europe, and should be stripped of its responsibilities. The London Bus operating model should be seriously considerd for Dublin. Instead private operators are being asked to tender for the pheripheral services, leaving DB with the main services. The Government has one simple question it needs to answer, are we serious about Public Transport? Sadly the answer has been consistantly proved to be NO.

 

[radamfi]

For some reason, Ireland has copied a lot of the bad habits from the UK instead of emulating good practice from mainland Europe. Despite Ireland's bitter struggle against British rule, their buses are run very similarly to how buses were run in Britain before 1986. Just like in the UK, you pay for each bus as you board instead of a single fare for a through journey and there is no through ticketing for single journeys between trams and buses.

Having said that, bus and train fares are generally considerably cheaper than the UK. Dublin now does at least have a smartcard that works on all modes of transport, including daily and weekly capping. That is better than anything in the UK as even London doesn't have weekly capping, although it will soon using contactless cards.

Also, bus priority in Dublin is far more comprehensive than in comparable cities in the UK.

 

[DT611]

the new M3 motorway (which has yet to reach its projected traffic flows).

and which probably never will

Veolia have shown how to operate a successful Light Rail system without Government Subvention.

which is great, but isn't it fair to say that is because the routes they operate have enough patronage to make it proffitable, or at least break even?

Dublin Bus have to be the worst providers of City buses in Western Europe, and should be stripped of its responsibilities.

i personally think this is unfair, sure, dublin bus aren't perfect, but i haven't had bad experiences with them all though integration on fairs and with other methods of transport is something that needed to be addressed long ago

The London Bus operating model should be seriously considerd for Dublin.

i have to disagree, the reason being that no doubt the relevant authorities will balls it up

Instead private operators are being asked to tender for the pheripheral services, leaving DB with the main services.

i suppose the reason for that is incase the whole experiment goes wrong (which i suspect it will) . would private operators be willing to bid for routes many of which will never cover their costs never mind break even with out a larger subsidy then currently given i wonder?

 

[Hornet]

Contactless Cards have been in use on London Buses for some time, (i've used my HSBC card a few times). Also, unlike Dublin, there are no 'stage fares'. It's a single price whether you travel one stop or the whole route on TfL Buses day and night . Drives me mad when I get on Dublin Bus and have to put my Leap Card on the Drivers reader if I want to travel less than 13 stages. Its quicker to pay by cash. (Looking forward to the Travel 90 ticket going on Leap:roll.

Plus Bus addition to Rail Tickets is available in many towns in the UK, with a saving on the Bus fares.

Bus priority schemes are active in many Towns, Runcorn, Luton and St Ives come to mind. Edinburgh had a Bus priority scheme but part of the route is now part of the Edinburgh Tram scheme. London has its 'Red Routes' where no parking whatsoever is allowed. These are found on major Bus corridors and are strictly enforced. Also there is a continuing rollout of Bus Priority Junction schemes and TfL Buses are fitted with cameras to record Bus Lane offences, enforcement of which is actively pursued.

One thing that does amaze me is the large amount of out of service Buses on Dublin's streets on an almost daily basis. It's rare to see out of service Buses abroad, as most are in service after leaving the garage, and not until, as in DB's case go to the end of the route to start its days service, or come back from the end of the route out of services as well. Also regulating Buses so the do not 'bunch' is non existent. Bus regulation is something that London Buses have done for years. Also there seems to be no comprehension amongst Dublin Bus controllers about terminating services short of its terminus
if there are a couple of services behind that could take up the passengers. The Bus could then run back into town filling a service gap that may otherwise appear. (I live on the route of the 27 and 77A. Friday afternoon is an exercise in how not to run a Bus service. I can wait to go into town and watch 7 or 8 Buses heading to Tallaght whilst the real time monitor shows up to 40 minutes for a Town bound Bus. The Bus eventually appears, and, you guessed it, 'as seirbhís' is displayed, and the Bus goes flying by. E-mail Dublin Bus, as I have done on several occasions, about it and the best you get is 'we will respond within x days' or more likely no response at all).

The historical context is irrelevent. The State has been independent for over ninety years. Successive Governments have had ample to deal with Public Transport issues to the benefit to the populus. The fact that they have failed to follow 'European Best Practice', is a failure of the Government of the State and nobody else.

 

[DT611]

QUOTE=Hornet;1890230]I live on the route of the 27[/QUOTE]

i believe that was to merge with the 79 into a cross city route? from your experience the fact it hasn't yet is a good thing and hopefully it won't happen. as a former user of the 79 route i think bringing it cross city would mean a very unreliable service. i don't know if the 40 (x 78a and other route it merged with) is still unreliable or if it has sorted itself out?

 

[radamfi]

Contactless Cards have been in use on London Buses for some time, (i've used my HSBC card a few times). Also, unlike Dublin, there are no 'stage fares'. It's a single price whether you travel one stop or the whole route on TfL Buses day and night . Drives me mad when I get on Dublin Bus and have to put my Leap Card on the Drivers reader if I want to travel less than 13 stages. Its quicker to pay by cash. (Looking forward to the Travel 90 ticket going on Leap:roll.

The implementation of the Leap card on Dublin buses isn't great, although at least you no longer need to have exact change. If they don't want a flat fare system like London then they should have a touch in touch out system like the trains. Trent Barton of Nottingham use touch in touch out and as do all buses in the Netherlands.

Bus priority schemes are active in many Towns, Runcorn, Luton and St Ives come to mind. Edinburgh had a Bus priority scheme but part of the route is now part of the Edinburgh Tram scheme. London has its 'Red Routes' where no parking whatsoever is allowed. These are found on major Bus corridors and are strictly enforced. Also there is a continuing rollout of Bus Priority Junction schemes and TfL Buses are fitted with cameras to record Bus Lane offences, enforcement of which is actively pursued.

You are talking about guideway schemes in average sized UK towns, which are very good but, apart from Runcorn, only cover a small part of their area. In the bigger cities like Birmingham and Liverpool, which are more comparable with Dublin, bus priority is quite limited whereas in Dublin there was a scheme to install bus lanes on many major corridors about 10-15 years ago, and there is also the more recent College Green bus corridor. London may have Red Routes, good parking enforcement and more bus lanes than other major UK cities but London's buses are still crippled by traffic.

Real time information has been available for all Dublin buses for some time, possibly before it was rolled out in London. Whereas real time information in the UK outside London still hardly exists.

It does sound like Dublin buses are quite like London's buses before tendering. Bus tendering is common in many European countries now and usually improves services while reducing costs. So tendering in Dublin should be a safe bet. However I would rather have the current Dublin bus compared to the deregulated buses in the UK outside London.

 

[Hornet]

QUOTE=Hornet;1890230]I live on the route of the 27

i believe that was to merge with the 79 into a cross city route? from your experience the fact it hasn't yet is a good thing and hopefully it won't happen. as a former user of the 79 route i think bringing it cross city would mean a very unreliable service. i don't know if the 40 (x 78a and other route it merged with) is still unreliable or if it has sorted itself out?[/QUOTE]

Th 27 South Side was formerly the 77 from Jobstown to Ringsend. The 27 was made a Cross City route a couple of years back and diverted from Ringsend to Clare Hall. The 77A was retained on its old route as far as The Square but is now extended to Citywest. The service pattern is supposed to be every 10/15 minutes but i've known gaps of up to 50 minutes. The Saturday evening service is half hourly but gaps of an hour are common.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

However I would rather have the current Dublin bus compared to the deregulated buses in the UK outside London.

I have used many Bus Services outside of London. (I am a regular user of First Bus Slough and Arriva The Shires when I am back in the UK). Both Companies Services have been more reliable than Dublin Bus. I can even reach Heathrow Airport from my folks place in Burnham by 07:30 on a Sunday Morning on First Bus Slough Route 78. I cannot reach Dublin City Centre until 09:00 on Sunday at the earliest on Dublin Bus. Many weekday Dublin Buses do not reach the City Centre much before 07:00 which isn't much use if you are a shift worker.

 

[radamfi]

I can even reach Heathrow Airport from my folks place in Burnham by 07:30 on a Sunday Morning on First Bus Slough Route 78. I cannot reach Dublin City Centre until 09:00 on Sunday at the earliest on Dublin Bus.

Buses to airports typically run very early in the morning primarily for airport staff. Very few buses in the UK outside London run that early on a Sunday morning apart from airport buses. It is possible to get a local bus to Dublin Airport on route 41 from the city centre at 0635 on Sunday and Aircoach runs 24 hours a day.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The issues on Dublin Bus with the leap card are not helped by the fact that they are using ticket machines which are based on a computer which was released 20 years ago. At the moment if someone pays by leap and then someone wants to pay by cash, the driver must exit the leap program and load the cash one or vice versa, since the machines only have 1mb of memory and cannot hold both in memory.

To be fair to Dublin Bus in the last couple of years they have improved, although it's questionable how much was down to them and how much was down to the fact that they were pretty much forced to by a regulator which isn't as light touch as it was in the past and is more hands on and that has at least helped drive some positive change.

Although the fact that it was 2012 before the company offered audio/visual passenger information systems, journey planners, Wifi real time information, buses with more than one door, true smart card products, buses with individual seating and the fact that only last year did they introduce a feature to help you work out what your fare is on the stage based fare system which is very confusing, tells you how trapped in the past they were.

As a customer of Dublin Bus I often feel that the company could not care less about it's passengers. When the company was threatened with tendering of it's routes, it launched a publicity drive entitled "My Dublin Bus Experience" where it promised a six month project to focus on the customer and to challenge 'perceptions' about the bus (note use of word perceptions, implying peoples criticism was unjust).

Aside from the obvious point that a company shouldn't have to launch a project, since it should be doing so all the time and the fact it does launch a project to listen to customers in itself, says a lot even if they had to, why only for six months, a short while after the launch of the project it was confirmed that the company would be holding onto all of the routes save for the local ones not serving the city centre, they stopped updating the website and abandoned the project.

I would however say that over the past 2-3 years there have been improvements in Dublin Bus and Irish Rail as a whole, I'd now say they're straight average at best rather than poor and there is a lot of work to be done, but I'd agree with the comment about the companies reminding of the post deregulation environment in the UK, that is exactly what the companies were like, and only in the last couple of years have they started to offer anything resembling a modern day service, but there is still a long way to go.

Bus Eireann has been a company that hasn't performed to it's best either, it's been a very reactive rather than proactive company over the last few years and despite being the dominant operator on many intercity routes, has been lacking ambition on many of them for some years, with privates applying for high frequency, direct, non stop express routes with early morning and late evening departures, spotting gaps in the market for them whilst BE just sits on it's laurels without continually trying to improve it's network.

BE as a company had a dominant position in these markets but has lost them as the privates have been the more brave to innovate and try something new and as a consequence BE has lost out. Lately they seem to have upped their game a bit, but even now are resorting to marketing spin on many of their services, branding them as expresses when in some cases they are the slowest service between two cities on the state, since they were not able to obtain licenses for the true express versions that the privates applied for first.

 

[radamfi]

Although the fact that it was 2012 before the company offered audio/visual passenger information systems, journey planners, Wifi real time information, buses with more than one door, true smart card products, buses with individual seating and the fact that only last year did they introduce a feature to help you work out what your fare is on the stage based fare system which is very confusing, tells you how trapped in the past they were.

But how is this worse than the UK outside London? Very few companies outside London offer next stop displays. The standard should really be monitors that show the next few stops and the end stop like in the Netherlands and Switzerland. Metrobus routes 10/20 in Crawley/Gatwick are the only services I know that offer this.

Most companies in the UK outside London don't use two door buses. Indeed, when they get cascaded from London they usually get converted to one door!

Most operators in the UK still don't offer smartcard fares and if they do it is usually not for single fares.

At least Dublin tell you what the fare is. On most bus companies in the UK single fares are a state secret and the few that do publish their fare tables mostly use a stage based system as well.

I've always wondered why Dublin continued with the bench seating. I assumed that is illegal on new buses in the UK. I've always found bench seating more comfortable.

Bus Eireann has been a company that hasn't performed to it's best either, it's been a very reactive rather than proactive company over the last few years and despite being the dominant operator on many intercity routes, has been lacking ambition on many of them for some years, with privates applying for high frequency, direct, non stop express routes with early morning and late evening departures, spotting gaps in the market for them whilst BE just sits on it's laurels without continually trying to improve it's network.

BE as a company had a dominant position in these markets but has lost them as the privates have been the more brave to innovate and try something new and as a consequence BE has lost out. Lately they seem to have upped their game a bit, but even now are resorting to marketing spin on many of their services, branding them as expresses when in some cases they are the slowest service between two cities on the state, since they were not able to obtain licenses for the true express versions that the privates applied for first.

The service offered by private companies in Ireland seems very impressive with routes operating 24 hours a day. Are these actually viable given the small population in the country?

Obviously BE have a problem in not being able to compete because they don't have the licences for express services and they have to serve intermediate locations which the private companies are allowed to avoid. One good thing about BE compared to coaches in the UK is that they will lay on extra coaches if they are full, or at least they used to do this.

 

[F Great Eastern]

But how is this worse than the UK outside London? Very few companies outside London offer next stop displays. The standard should really be monitors that show the next few stops and the end stop like in the Netherlands and Switzerland. Metrobus routes 10/20 in Crawley/Gatwick are the only services I know that offer this.

Most companies in the UK outside London don't use two door buses. Indeed, when they get cascaded from London they usually get converted to one door!

Most operators in the UK still don't offer smartcard fares and if they do it is usually not for single fares.

But I am comparing London with Dublin as both are capital cities, and by far each countries biggest bus networks.

At least Dublin tell you what the fare is. On most bus companies in the UK single fares are a state secret and the few that do publish their fare tables mostly use a stage based system as well.

Actually they keep it hidden. There are no on street markings of stages, no bus stops have stage markings, timetables on street do not list stages. Some on street timetables, but only those at bus shelters (about 15-20%) will list fare levels and what each level costs, but still do not list the actual stages for any of the routes, making it impossible to know how much your fare costs or calculate the number of stages. Even drivers are unsure what the fares are for many routes because of the complexity of this.

Only last year was a fare calculator and a list of stages included on the Dublin Bus website and the Dublin Bus app.

The service offered by private companies in Ireland seems very impressive with routes operating 24 hours a day. Are these actually viable given the small population in the country?

Obviously BE have a problem in not being able to compete because they don't have the licences for express services and they have to serve intermediate locations which the private companies are allowed to avoid.

Until what is a good few years ago now the system completely discriminated against private operators. If a private operator wanted to apply for a route commercially, they would spot a niche, apply for it, and then the state would offer the route to the state companies and if the state companies turned it down, they may then be able to operate a route, normally with restrictions on pick up and set down points. The privates were and still are, not allowed to run a service that directly copies or competes with any PSO/Subsidised route, which is basically 95% of the Dublin Bus, and approx 85% of the BE network.

For commercial services which basically consists of one Dublin Bus service (747 airport express), and the Bus Eireann Intercity network, the licensing authorities allow two operators per competing route. Competing will normally mean routes which are almost identical to each other, but say a non stop route between two cities and one with 5-6 stops would not be considered competing for this purpose. The only exception to this is cross border services between NI and ROI, for passengers starting their journey in one country and finishing in another, which do not come under this licensing regime.

The licensing for commercial services is very simple. The operators who apply first get the license. All operators, state or private, are treated in exactly the same way. First come first served. The problem is that on routes such as Galway and Cork, Limerick amongst others, where Bus Eireann have had very strong positions on multi-stop intercity routes, they have been slow to apply for express non stop licenses, another company, such as First, Citylink or some local operators, some of them ran by ex Bus Eireann staff has seen the gap in the market and applied, been awarded the license and only then, has BE applied for a route, in many cases by which point another operator has already also applied, the two licenses have been used up and BE is excluded from that particular market.

That's the problem, the commercial side of BE for a long time has been very much reactive to the competition, rather than leading the way against them and being proactive in their dealings. For instance many people were saying for a long time that express routes to Limerick and Cork were viable and would be very popular, but the indications were that the company did not agree and therefore would not be applying for such services, only for someone else to then prove that they were workable and could become very successful.

 

[DT611]

I've always wondered why Dublin continued with the bench seating.

i don't know.

I assumed that is illegal on new buses in the UK.

i wouldn't know i'm afraid

I've always found bench seating more comfortable.

they were very comfortable seats but i don't like bench seating so used to use the individual seates down the bus or go upstairs.

The service offered by private companies in Ireland seems very impressive with routes operating 24 hours a day. Are these actually viable given the small population in the country?

they must be viable. they have no competition on those routes so there would be no point operating for the sake of it to drive competitors out.

Obviously BE have a problem in not being able to compete because they don't have the licences for express services and they have to serve intermediate locations which the private companies are allowed to avoid.

true, but it was up to BE to apply for express licences and they didn't.

One good thing about BE compared to coaches in the UK is that they will lay on extra coaches if they are full, or at least they used to do this.

or even hire in private coaches. i think they still do it but i haven't traveled with them in a few years as i only use rail

 

[radamfi]

But I am comparing London with Dublin as both are capital cities, and by far each countries biggest bus networks.

Not really a fair comparison as London is far bigger. Comparison with the other major UK cities would be more relevant. I'm pretty sure there are more buses in Greater Manchester, West Midlands or even in Merseyside than in Dublin.

Only last year was a fare calculator and a list of stages included on the Dublin Bus website and the Dublin Bus app.

So you can find out the fares, unlike most of Britain! Obviously a zonal or flat fare system would be more sensible, or a per km system like the Netherlands to make the smartcard system work properly.

The situation in Dublin is very substandard compared to mainland Europe, which is where the comparison should be with. The fact that Dublin is better than most of the UK shows how bad the UK is.

The long distance bus service in Ireland seems particularly good with the introduction of private operators, but if BE suddenly closed down and there was full deregulation, would the private operators merge and become a worse monopoly than the BE only situation was? Maybe the fact that there are a limited number of licences available, and the fact that BE still exists as a state competitor, makes the private operators better than they would be otherwise.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Not really a fair comparison as London is far bigger. Comparison with the other major UK cities would be more relevant. I'm pretty sure there are more buses in Greater Manchester, West Midlands or even in Merseyside than in Dublin.

I'm talking about Dublin the city. The areas you talk about are actual regions rather than cities. Even if you are talking about Dublin the city and comparing it with regions, Dublin as a city has approx 20-25% of the whole countries population.

Even the next five cities put together don't have even half the numbers that Dublin city has on it's own and you can add on another 2 or 3 percent if you are going to talk about the Greater Dublin and include places like Swords, Balbriggan and Malahide, which whilst would not be part of Dublin City, they are part of the Greater Dublin Area.

So you can find out the fares, unlike most of Britain!

You can find out the fares, but it's very difficult to do if you are not near a computer or a mobile phone, and even then they are not displayed on the timetable, only through a fare calculator.

The situation in Dublin is very substandard compared to mainland Europe, which is where the comparison should be with. The fact that Dublin is better than most of the UK shows how bad the UK is.

Have you seen a Dublin Bus timetable? There are no intermediate stop times. The times listed are the times that the bus departs the terminus. For all the faults of the UK system, at least you have a better idea when a bus can arrive from the timetable.

Up until 2012 I would say that Dublin Bus was much worse than most of the UK, you had buses built to specifications that had not changed since the early 1990s, fares that were impossible to work out, an antiqued fare system and the only period tickets available based on unreliable magnetic stripe technology built on even more unreliable readers, basic interiors and few stops where timetables were displayed, a lot of stops (and about half of them still are) just consisted of a pole with a Dublin Bus logo, with no timetable or indication of what route stopped there. You can't even buy a day or weekly ticket on the bus even to this day!

Whilst Dublin Bus fares are not hideously expensive for single trips, they have never and still do not offer return tickets, the monthly and yearly ticket prices are vastly more expensive than UK operators, there is little to no enforcement of people having valid tickets and many are using this to their advantage and openly fare evading in the knowledge they have no chance of getting caught, free travel passes are so easy to fake it's laughable and until recently many fully working adults were paying for student tickets, in the knowledge they would never get asked for ID.

I don't know how you can call that a properly functioning bus service, and as I've said, certainly the company has made progress in the last 2-3 years and offers a more acceptable standard of service, but operationally it still has a vast number of issues it needs to resolve before it can come anywhere near a good well run bus service.

The long distance bus service in Ireland seems particularly good with the introduction of private operators, but if BE suddenly closed down and there was full deregulation, would the private operators merge and become a worse monopoly than the BE only situation was? Maybe the fact that there are a limited number of licences available, and the fact that BE still exists as a state competitor, makes the private operators better than they would be otherwise.

I'd flip that on it's head and I'd say with BE enjoying a protected monopoly on the vast majority of it's operations and giving it a vast head start on smaller operators and significant synergies and efficiency and economies of scale since they had an incumbent presence of every single route in the entire country pretty much, that what kind of state would we be if there were no private operators?

If the company doesn't show any proactive thinking with what they have now where there is a little bit of a threat of competition, what would it be like without them? BE only tried to improve many of its services to keep up with the competition on the intercity network, if that competition wasn't there, then it's likely that the company wouldn't even make such improvements, and as a result everyone would have the same poor timetabled, long drawn out meandering services there always was.

Personally I wouldn't like to see full de-regulation at this point, as honestly with the kind of country Ireland is, I don't think it's suited to such a market. I would however like to see the PSO routes open to competitive tender, Transport for London style. The current way the commercial route licensing process I feel is spot on, at the moment it rewards innovation and for the operators which take risks. If we went to full de-regulation and allow unlimited operators on commercial routes, you would simply have the same big names muscle their way in and run at a loss for a while to drive the competition out after the initial operators do all the donkey work, create the market and take the risks. By limiting the number of licenses, it prevents this.

 

[DT611]

I would however like to see the PSO routes open to competitive tender, Transport for London style.

i don't trust the government and relevant regulator not to balls it up, so i couldn't support such a move. ireland is good at taking ideas from other countries but bad at implementing them, at least from my experience. if people who have experience in such matters can be brought in to do it without interfearence and make sure there are strict penalties for companies failing to live up to the standard then i could consider supporting it

The current way the commercial route licensing process I feel is spot on, at the moment it rewards innovation and for the operators which take risks. If we went to full de-regulation and allow unlimited operators on commercial routes, you would simply have the same big names muscle their way in and run at a loss for a while to drive the competition out after the initial operators do all the donkey work, create the market and take the risks. By limiting the number of licenses, it prevents this.

i do agree with this, much of irelands public transport isn't profitable and never will be, so de-regulation like parts of the UK would probably leave virtually everyone outside the cities with nothing, unless the government is willing to stump up the cash (funnily enough i'm 50 50 as to whether they would) so a licencing system and strict requirements would be the best option. if we are to have a competitive tendering process then strict requirements with punishments and penalties for failing to stick to them needs to be implemented, and the same for the regulator if it fails to do its job. in my personal opinion i'd rather have the state operators continue but given a fair subsidy along with management being on a performance based pay structure, but if the government wants to go down the competitive tendering route and a private company wins, and we then subsidise the private company to operate (which we may have to do on much of the routes) then i want to make sure that the structure is set in favour of the people more then the company. if the company fails to do what it is being asked to do, then as i said, severe penalties and punishments.

 

[F Great Eastern]

i do agree with this, much of irelands public transport isn't profitable and never will be, so de-regulation like parts of the UK would probably leave virtually everyone outside the cities with nothing, unless the government is willing to stump up the cash (funnily enough i'm 50 50 as to whether they would)

I completely agree that due to the population density of the country you are never going to make a lot of the public transport services profitable and you will always need subsidy for such services but at the same time what we have currently is not as efficient as it can be. There is no way in this land that every single town and city route in the country needs a PSO subsidy or that Dublin Bus or Bus Eireann are the height of efficiency. No monopoly is.

if the government wants to go down the competitive tendering route and a private company wins, and we then subsidise the private company to operate (which we may have to do on much of the routes) then i want to make sure that the structure is set in favour of the people more then the company. if the company fails to do what it is being asked to do, then as i said, severe penalties and punishments.

I would certainly allow the state one bid at every contest at all of the routes that go out to tender, but the bid needs to be fully costed and the same for the private operator bids. I have heard some people talk about allowing different divisions of the the CIE companies being allowed to make a bit each and that I would not be in favour of, since it's essentially allowing the same party to bid multiple times through their divisions.

There has to be strict performance targets for all operators, enforced and collated by a regulator (not the operator themselves) that is independent of all operators with clear guidelines and rules on what happens if the performance targets are not met and what will be done. The tenders should state the frequency of services and fares like in London, and whilst the operator should be allowed input and to have their views heard, the regulator should be the one making the final decisions and approval/rejections over timetable and route changes etc.

Lastly the fares should be the same across all contractors, again like in London, accepting all tickets. Essentially for the PSO routes, the operators should operate the service, have their say in other matters, but all other matters should be controlled and regulated and the regulator to have the final say.

What must be of the utmost importance is that the public are put before any operator, be they private or public.