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Is a ticket to all london terminals valid on the tube?

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maniacmartin

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Here's how I would summarise the validity of tickets to London Terminals:
Once you reach a London Terminal, you cannot continue your journey via any station which is not a London Terminal, but you can continue on National Rail (or interavailable routes) to other London Terminals.

Note there are exceptions mentioned upthread, such as season tickets routed HS1.
 
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Here's how I would summarise the validity of tickets to London Terminals:
Once you reach a London Terminal, you cannot continue your journey via any station which is not a London Terminal, but you can continue on National Rail (or interavailable routes) to other London Terminals.

Note there are exceptions mentioned upthread, such as season tickets routed HS1.
Would "You are not allowed to pass through Farringdon" be equally valid as well, or have I missed out any case?
 

alistairlees

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Problem is not everyone is prepared to accept the "existing validity"; Great Eastern mainline stations to London Terminals are valid into Kings Cross (via Highbury & Islington and Finsbury Park) by the rules but this is erroneously not listed in the (incomplete) data file list of "valid" terminals.

The list accepts Richmond to London is valid into Euston (correct) but bizarrely omits anywhere west of Richmond.

Good job it has no contractual status and is ignored by booking engines ;)

The list you're referring to is London Terminals Mapping from IDMS (IPTIS Data Management Service). It's an accreditation requirement for journey planners to implement it. So I'm afraid it's not correct to say it is "ignored by booking engines".

At the moment it's just for London, but I understand other places (e.g. Birmingham) will be added soon.
 

yorkie

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Booking engines only have to display the (incorrect) IDMS data.
 

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talltim

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The main problem is the name, especially as some of the limits aren’t terminals. The plural gives the impression that you can travel to more than one in one journey (which of course you can in some combination but not others)
Either rename it or make it London Terminals (not underground) and allow travel on National Rail between them where possible. (my on second thought you then have to work out valid routes so maybe not!)
 

StuartW

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From May 20th, I'll be able to commute directly to Farringdon from Shoreham-by-Sea. Farringdon is closest station to my place of work just south of Barbican tube station - approx 6 minutes walking. Looking at Season ticket options - I was hoping to find a ticket that would work from London Victoria, London Bridge and Farringdon (as there are only 2 morning, and 2 evening trains that provide the direct route). Given nature of train travel, I'm highly likely to be able to need to travel back from London Bridge or London Victoria - if I miss the Farringdon direct lines. Would purchasing a season ticket to London St Pancras cover London Bridge, Farringdon - as they're on the route from the south coast? If so - would London Victoria also be valid?
 

Starmill

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This is a thorny issue. You could buy a ticket from Shoreham by Sea to London Thameslink and ask about using it to London Victoria. However they might not like that...
I don't see how a ticket from London St Pancras specifically would be valid to London Victoria. It would of course be valid from London Waterloo or London Bridge.
 

StuartW

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Thanks - my other thought was London Terminal includes Liverpool Street Station. So coming from Shoreham - a valid route would be via Farringdon - Barbican - Moorgate - Liverpool Street. In theory - Farringdon is then a route to Liverpool St - which means I should be able to exit there. At present I can travel from Shoreham to Brighton, get off at Brighton - as it is a route to London terminals.
 

Starmill

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I do't believe that would follow any of the current logic I'm afraid.

Your Shoreham-by-Sea to London Terminals permits exit at City Thameslink, perhaps you could walk to your office from there?

Alternatively there is the Shoreham-by-Sea to London Zones 1-6 ticket for around £21 a week more.
 

swt_passenger

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Thanks - my other thought was London Terminal includes Liverpool Street Station. So coming from Shoreham - a valid route would be via Farringdon - Barbican - Moorgate - Liverpool Street. In theory - Farringdon is then a route to Liverpool St - which means I should be able to exit there. At present I can travel from Shoreham to Brighton, get off at Brighton - as it is a route to London terminals.
Welcome to these forums by the way. :)

Unfortunately it’s not as straightforward, it never is... “London Terminals” from the south is not valid beyond City Thameslink. “London Thameslink” (new from the May timetable change) is stated as not valid to Victoria.

We have a thread all about the new possibilities or potential problems here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ares-from-gn-and-from-south-of-london.162814/

“London Terminals” doesnt mean “All London Terminals”, more like “ Appropriate London Terminals”.
 
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Hadders

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Shoreham-on-Sea - London Terminals would not be valid to Farringdon but is valid to City Thameslink. The northern entrance to City Thameslink is only around 400 yards from Farringdon.
 

swt_passenger

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Shoreham-on-Sea - London Terminals would not be valid to Farringdon but is valid to City Thameslink. The northern entrance to City Thameslink is only around 400 yards from Farringdon.
However if heading to “just south of Barbican tube” (as above) then it may be almost as quick to walk up the other side of the triangle between Barts and Smithfield?
 

Hadders

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However if heading to “just south of Barbican tube” (as above) then it may be almost as quick to walk up the other side of the triangle between Barts and Smithfield?

Agreed. I hadn't noticed that the ultimate destination was just south of Barbican station. I'd definitely do City Thameslink using a London Terminals ticket if I was the OP.
 

Joe Paxton

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As others have already said, under the current ticketing rules the standard answer to this is use City Thameslink instead.
 

swt_passenger

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Thanks all - I hadn't realised that city thameslink is a London Terminal.
This is because the present station was effectively the replacement of the closed Holborn Viaduct station platforms that were a more typical terminus for the Southern Region...
 

RJ

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Would "You are not allowed to pass through Farringdon" be equally valid as well, or have I missed out any case?

Nope. In addition to the point made about HS1 fares, tickets issued from any of the U Zones to London Terminals are valid to pass through Farringdon and use Thameslink into St Pancras International.
 

maniacmartin

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[..]tickets issued from any of the U Zones to London Terminals are valid to pass through Farringdon and use Thameslink into St Pancras International.
This is news to me. Is there any public-facing official documentation on it, that you know of?
 

Haywain

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So coming from Shoreham - a valid route would be via Farringdon - Barbican - Moorgate - Liverpool Street. In theory - Farringdon is then a route to Liverpool St - which means I should be able to exit there.
No, that is not a valid route. Your ticket from Shoreham to London Terminals has no validity on London Underground, except where there is interavailability or a specific time-limited exception.

tickets issued from any of the U Zones to London Terminals
As I recall, tickets from U zones should be issued to a named station, not London Terminals, although some TIS don't co-operate well with this.
 

bb21

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Tickets can be issued specifically between London Terminals and any U-zone combination (which must include Zone 1) if travel is required at one end on an LUL service and at the other end on a National Rail service to/from a London Terminals station. For example, London Victoria via Balham to Morden (LU) should be issued LONDON TERMINALS to ZONES U1234.

Therefore RJ is correct that a ticket between London Terminals and a U-zone origin/destination is valid for passing Farringdon on Thameslink services to/from St Pancras low level.

It is simply an example of an inboundary mixed-mode "Train Tube" fare.
 

Haywain

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Tickets can be issued specifically between London Terminals and any U-zone combination (which must include Zone 1) if travel is required at one end on an LUL service and at the other end on a National Rail service to/from a London Terminals station. For example, London Victoria via Balham to Morden (LU) should be issued LONDON TERMINALS to ZONES U1234.

Therefore RJ is correct that a ticket between London Terminals and a U-zone origin/destination is valid for passing Farringdon on Thameslink services to/from St Pancras low level.

It is simply an example of an inboundary mixed-mode "Train Tube" fare.
I agree about ticket issued from a London Terminals station to a U-zone destination, but I don't recall that being the case the other way round.
 

bb21

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I see. I think the general consensus is that fares are reversible unless otherwise stated, although I take the point that the iKB only makes mention of "journeys from a designated London Terminals station".

It makes no sense for it not to be, especially given that inboundary fares are entirely zonal.

I would imagine it is more a case of this part of iKB mainly being of use to National Rail ticket offices, where travelling to another London terminal with the first leg on the Underground and the second leg on NR a somewhat unusual scenario so not really considered.
 

StuartW

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I see. I think the general consensus is that fares are reversible unless otherwise stated, although I take the point that the iKB only makes mention of "journeys from a designated London Terminals station".

It makes no sense for it not to be, especially given that inboundary fares are entirely zonal.

I would imagine it is more a case of this part of iKB mainly being of use to National Rail ticket offices, where travelling to another London terminal with the first leg on the Underground and the second leg on NR a somewhat unusual scenario so not really considered.
Does that mean a train ticket from Shoreham-by-Sea to London terminals can pass through Farringdon and Barbican - as the end destination of Livepool Street Station is classified as a London terminal?
 

bb21

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No, sorry. The case Haywain was talking about applied only to fares entirely within the London zonal fares area (within Zones 1-6).

On a London Terminals ticket from an outboundary station, you may not travel to/from/through Farringdon station on the Thameslink core (except on an HS1 ticket travelling via St Pancras), which is why you can only go as far as City Thameslink from a southern origin.
 

RJ

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As I recall, tickets from U zones should be issued to a named station, not London Terminals, although some TIS don't co-operate well with this.

I had a look in RJIS - clicky. There's no option to issue the ticket to London St Pancras.

National Rail Enquires suggests the £6.20 SDS highlighted for a journey from Tower Hill to St Pancras International via Farringdon - http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/Tower_Hill/STP/Tuesday/1200/dep?via=Farringdon

Also had a look through iKb and couldn't find anything forbidding U zones tickets from being issued to a London Terminal though granted there are a lot of pages of information in there - is it documented anywhere?
 

Haywain

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I don't have access to iKb any longer so I can't check but I think it was in there somewhere.
 

30907

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Does that mean a train ticket from Shoreham-by-Sea to London terminals can pass through Farringdon and Barbican - as the end destination of Livepool Street Station is classified as a London terminal?

No. To put it another way, Liverpool Street NR Station is only a London Terminal for stations where the whole journey there is do-able by a permitted route on National Rail.
 
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