Is Arriva the new First?

[Lynford1976]

Roger French has recently posted on his blog an interesting piece on Arriva's future - it can be read at https://busandtrainuser.com (title of post is 'Friendly feedback for ManFred'). Thought it may be worthy of further discussion here?

I've felt for sometime that Arriva is the most lacklustre of the big groups, with some of the operating companies just far too large to be effective in the areas they run in. With the threat of more centralisation, are they likely to become another First UK Bus?

 

[danielnez1]

My local operator (Arriva Northumbria/North East) has always been atrocious since it's inception. Filthy busses, many of the staff are rude and obnoxious and high fares to round it all off. Now the management is shared with Arriva Yorkshire they seem to be even more inept.

 

[overthewater]

I'm surprised Arriva owners DB just has let its get into a bad state in the first place? If it has no interest there should either pull out or sell up.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm surprised Arriva owners DB just has let its get into a bad state in the first place? If it has no interest there should either pull out or sell up.

Isn't that the point? That Arriva and DB management becomes ever more remote? The DB management are probably only really concerned that the operations are hitting their numbers in terms of financials.

I have long said that people are awfully caught up with hand-wringing over First and for some good reasons. However, First's issues are well known as are the reasons for it. Arriva UK Bus has long been guilty of a lack of strategy and, to be fair, they've flown under the radar because First have taken the eye.

Also, this torpor has extended long before DB bought them. Masses of depot closures, vacating territory, poor service delivery. They have continued to invest in new buses and that's why the gricers haven't been kicking them. However, it's not been good for a long time. The former MRN operations are in a shocking state, and from what I saw of the former London and Country/Kentish Bus operations yesterday, they are bereft of any form of direction. With L&C, they were the dominant operator from the M23 to the M4 - now it's not much more than a few routes round Guildford.

I don't travel Arriva so often (in comparison to First or Stagecoach) - in the couple of years, it's been restricted to Merseyside and West Yorkshire (which are actually fairly decent), North East (which really should be much better), Cheshire (which is flatlining), and the old MRN/L&C ops as mentioned. However, when you look at the number of depots that have closed or the territory that they've ceded, it is quite stunning.

 

[Robertj21a]

A fair summary.

Arriva seem to now have some poor quality operations in all the old L&C areas, Staffs and Salop. As you say, the North East is ok, but could be better.
I think they have only Yorkshire, East Midlands and Merseyside to fall back on.

 

[yorksrob]

Their services around Wakefield and Leeds seem to be pretty good.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm surprised Arriva owners DB just has let its get into a bad state in the first place? If it has no interest there should either pull out or sell up.

It's been utterly mediocre for years. The only thing they did that was even vaguely impressive in recent years was a very fast rollout of mobile ticketing nationally, well before everyone else did (well before even smartphones were common - the first version was a Java app that ran on featurephones).

 

[Andyh82]

Similar to First, it always seems to be the same geographical area that has the issues, the potteries, south midlands, Home Counties, South, south east, outer London sort of area that all seem to merge into one, and are often managed from a distant location.

The operations up North which seem to be well defined within established boundaries seem to do better for both.

Unlike First, Arriva have kept investing and I know in West Yorks they have the newest fleet, newer than both First and Transdev.

 

[Robertj21a]

It's been utterly mediocre for years. The only thing they did that was even vaguely impressive in recent years was a very fast rollout of mobile ticketing nationally, well before everyone else did (well before even smartphones were common - the first version was a Java app that ran on featurephones).

The Arriva app to check the time, and location, of your bus - anywhere in England/Wales - was way ahead of most others and works very well. It's a shame that they don't emphasise it as a significant feature.

 

[Robertj21a]

Their services around Wakefield and Leeds seem to be pretty good.

Agreed, probably some of their very best UK operations.

 

[cactustwirly]

Their Leicester operation seems to be quite good, with modern buses to a high spec (leather seats)
and decent frequencies and route coverage.

They are a lot better than Stagecoach in my view, who have rip off fares, and really bad buses

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Arriva app to check the time, and location, of your bus - anywhere in England/Wales - was way ahead of most others and works very well. It's a shame that they don't emphasise it as a significant feature.

True - forgot about that even though I use it a fair bit! That kind of thing is a "killer app" as it means you can leave home at precisely the right second to catch the bus rather than having to leave a bit of slack, thus knocking about 5 minutes off most journeys without even doing anything to the actual bus service.

Much better than the First and Stagecoach apps, which don't I think have the live GPS map, and one of them only allows you to view real-time times if you're at or very near the bus stop, the reason for which makes the mind utterly boggle.

I suspect they have a couple of very good IT people[1] nationally who may have been around for some time. Shame the rest of their operations aren't up to that level.

[1] Though I believe the actual app they use at present is from HaCon Ingenieurgesellschaft mbH, the originators of the DB Reiseplanner among other excellent and pioneering pieces of transport IT.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed, probably some of their very best UK operations.

I've been finding the new N10 nightbus from Leeds to Wakefield very useful of late.

 

[Megafuss]

I'd say ARRIVA is now behind First in terms of reputation. At least some First area are doing SOMETHING. For example Cornwall, Eastern Counties, Leeds, Bristol

 

[transmanche]

My local operator (Arriva Northumbria/North East) has always been atrocious since it's inception. Filthy busses, many of the staff are rude and obnoxious and high fares to round it all off.

Gosh, if you think Arriva NE fares are high, lord knows what you think of Stagecoach NE fares!

A journey I make regularly in Newcastle costs £1.30 single on Arriva, £2.30 for a return. On Stagecoach it's £2.20 for a single!

 

[overthewater]

Buy a day ticket!

 

[danielnez1]

Gosh, if you think Arriva NE fares are high, lord knows what you think of Stagecoach NE fares!

A journey I make regularly in Newcastle costs £1.30 single on Arriva, £2.30 for a return. On Stagecoach it's £2.20 for a single!

Buy a day ticket!

Arriva Northumbria cheapest adult tickets for:
Seghill, ~8 miles from Newcastle: Day: £6.20 Week: £24.00 Month: £87.00 Year: £955.00
Cramlington: ~9 miles from Newcastle: Day: £5.00 Week: £18.00 Month: £65.00 Year: £660.00
Thrompton ~27 miles from Newcastle: Day: £7.30 Week: £24.00 Month: £84.00 Year: £910.00

I hope you both didn't go to the same school where Dianne Abbot learned maths .

 

[Statto]

The Arriva live map is good, way ahead of others, Stagecoach app on the other hand is awful & still has a section of a route in my area that was withdrawn 2 years ago, Arriva website is dreadful though quite often you get timed out trying to load a section.

 

[Failed Unit]

Their Leicester operation seems to be quite good, with modern buses to a high spec (leather seats)
and decent frequencies and route coverage.

They are a lot better than Stagecoach in my view, who have rip off fares, and really bad buses

It certainly seems to a lottery of where you live on all the main operations. For me my interface with Arriva is in Hertfordshire where you have old knackered buses running an unreliable service and the North East where it is reasonable. I suspect Herts is an area they would rather not be in so they run it on a shoestring. However that is is viscous circle as I will walk on local routes or cycle on longer ones. Good for me that has the choice but I suspect drive is used by those that can. I don’t have the confidence to use them.

 

[radamfi]

I have long said that people are awfully caught up with hand-wringing over First and for some good reasons. However, First's issues are well known as are the reasons for it. Arriva UK Bus has long been guilty of a lack of strategy and, to be fair, they've flown under the radar because First have taken the eye.

First and Arriva both suck, we've known this for years. But what can be done about it? They can't be sacked or have sanctions imposed on them.

 

[jamesst]

Well up here in Merseyside both Arriva and Stagecoach seem quite good, fairly new buses, decent frequencies.
The day First went from here was a glorious day!

 

[ivanhoe]

Their Leicester operation seems to be quite good, with modern buses to a high spec (leather seats)
and decent frequencies and route coverage.

They are a lot better than Stagecoach in my view, who have rip off fares, and really bad buses

Agree about Leicestershire. However, all the hard route work was done by its predecessor, Midland Red/Midland Fox. Mind you, to keep a fair bit of it intact, 30 years on, is an achievement. I’ve also experienced Merseyside where Arriva runs a good operation. As some posters have said, there are a number of indifferent/poor operational areas, many of which I haven’t experienced. Sometimes, when you’ve experienced good practice, the brand sticks in your mind in a positive manner.

 

[goldisgood]

All operators will have areas where they operate well, and areas where they don't. Some operators (ahem First, Arriva) just have more areas where they operate badly. The difference between First and Arriva is that First seem to be making more of an effort in places such as Bristol and Cornwall, whilst Arriva aren't doing masses - they aren't even buying any new buses this year!

 

[smtglasgow]

I’ve only really had experience of two Arriva operations. Scotland West was deeply underwhelming: a sad story of underinvestment and salami slicing. To be fair, they had to contend with competition from innumerable small operators, many of which ended up falling foul of the Traffic Commisioners. Selling out to McGills was the best outcome.

But I’ve also been going to the Luton and Hemel areas all my life and the slow but steady decline in these operations has been sad to see. Luton presumably still makes decent money – it gets regular investment – but even here the network has shrunk dramatically, and council cuts a few years ago decimated the evening services. Hemel is far worse – a shadow of what it was even a decade ago – and the Aylesbury-Watford corridor has just seen another set of cuts.

The bus industry generally is in a bad place at the moment. Don’t think anyone has a clear idea about how to make money out of the more marginal areas, but at least with First you get the sense that the trauma of the last decade has forced them to address things – albeit slowly. But I wouldn’t be surprised to see both Arriva and First (and Stagecoach & Go Ahead) jettisoning more poorly performing depots/routes.

 

[Bantamzen]

Similar to First, it always seems to be the same geographical area that has the issues, the potteries, south midlands, Home Counties, South, south east, outer London sort of area that all seem to merge into one, and are often managed from a distant location.

The operations up North which seem to be well defined within established boundaries seem to do better for both.

Unlike First, Arriva have kept investing and I know in West Yorks they have the newest fleet, newer than both First and Transdev.

In my neck of the woods, even Arriva's child company Yorkshire/Flying Tiger beats First Bradford hands down, with the latter continuing with a slow neglect & withdrawal program, or so it seems at least. However that's not to say that the routes that Yorkshire Tiger have taken over from First are running smoothly, delays are rapidly mounting up on some & over on the Flying Tiger airport services they've been padding the timetables out for a couple of years. But at least they are taking up some of First's slack as they redraw from routes.

 

[Mwanesh]

The difference is all First operations are all up the creek.Arriva operations in Europe are on sound footing.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The difference is all First operations are all up the creek.Arriva operations in Europe are on sound footing.

Think that's a bit simplistic. First have some good operations in the UK but have struggled to extricate themselves from the Moir mire.

Remember that Arriva's parent DB has a debt pile of c.€20bn

 

[MedwayValiant]

The only thing they did that was even vaguely impressive in recent years was a very fast rollout of mobile ticketing nationally, well before everyone else did (well before even smartphones were common - the first version was a Java app that ran on featurephones).

They did, although the m-ticket system had a major failure - in Kent at least, not sure about elsewhere - a few weeks ago and couldn't be used. Social media also has numerous claims that people have paid for m-tickets which have not been delivered to their phones, and there is still the odd driver who claims not to know what they are.

But yes, Arriva was ahead of the game on m-ticketing. On the other hand, there has never been a stored value card. Medway was supposed to be getting "something like Oystercard" "within months" well over a decade ago, but it never happened. By now that kind of system is old hat, much as Kent County Council is very keen on its stored value product - which is of decidedly limited use, since neither Arriva nor Stagecoach accept it. The newer hat is contactless, but Arriva don't accept that either - and by now, not doing is practically medieval.

 

[transmanche]

Arriva Northumbria cheapest adult tickets for:
Seghill, ~8 miles from Newcastle: Day: £6.20 Week: £24.00 Month: £87.00 Year: £955.00
Cramlington: ~9 miles from Newcastle: Day: £5.00 Week: £18.00 Month: £65.00 Year: £660.00
Thrompton ~27 miles from Newcastle: Day: £7.30 Week: £24.00 Month: £84.00 Year: £910.00

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Arriva have a zonal system for day/season tickets in Northumberland and Tyne & Wear, but you're not comparing apples with apples.

What you appear to have quoted are the prices for a two-zone ticket, a Cramlington Routesaver and a Rothbury Routesaver.

The two-zone ticket covers all Arriva services in both the Blyth Valley zone and the Tyne & Wear zones. Routesaver tickets only cover journeys from the named place to and from Newcastle, plus some local services in that named place. (The Rothbury Routesaver includes the whole of route X14, an irregular service of 7 or 8 buses a day - 5 on Sundays.)

I hope you both didn't go to the same school where Dianne Abbot learned maths .

What was wrong with my maths?

But yes, Arriva was ahead of the game on m-ticketing. On the other hand, there has never been a stored value card. Medway was supposed to be getting "something like Oystercard" "within months" well over a decade ago, but it never happened. By now that kind of system is old hat, much as Kent County Council is very keen on its stored value product - which is of decidedly limited use, since neither Arriva nor Stagecoach accept it. The newer hat is contactless, but Arriva don't accept that either - and by now, not doing is practically medieval.

Arriva North East accept the regionwide Pop card, and have done since its launch. And they accept contactless on all buses too and have done for quite a while.

So there are big regional differences.

 

[danielnez1]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Arriva have a zonal system for day/season tickets in Northumberland and Tyne & Wear, but you're not comparing apples with apples.

What you appear to have quoted are the prices for a two-zone ticket, a Cramlington Routesaver and a Rothbury Routesaver.

The two-zone ticket covers all Arriva services in both the Blyth Valley zone and the Tyne & Wear zones. Routesaver tickets only cover journeys from the named place to and from Newcastle, plus some local services in that named place. (The Rothbury Routesaver includes the whole of route X14, an irregular service of 7 or 8 buses a day - 5 on Sundays.)

What was wrong with my maths?

For people commenting into Newcastle, it makes a big difference. Therefore the generalisation of "Buy a day ticket", when in fact the pricing structure is off whack is quite disingenuous.