Is Arriva the new First?

[transmanche]

For people commenting into Newcastle, it makes a big difference. Therefore the generalisation of "Buy a day ticket", when in fact the pricing structure is off whack is quite disingenuous.

I wasn't the person who said: "buy a day ticket".

And I don't see that the pricing structure is 'off-whack'. You can argue the case that there is no Routesaver option for residents of Seghill, but quite simply there may be no demand for one, as (IIRC) only two routes serve Seghill - and therefore the zonal ticket might be more useful and more appropriate for most passengers.

So it seems that the basis of your grumble is that the people of Seghill don't get a discounted ticket for journeys to/from Newcastle, but the people of Rothbury do. Whereas the people of Seghill get 30 buses a day to Newcastle, but the people of Rothbury only get 7.

I'm still intrigued about your slur on my maths abilities back in post #17. Could you explain?

 

[danielnez1]

I wasn't the person who said: "buy a day ticket".

And I don't see that the pricing structure is 'off-whack'. You can argue the case that there is no Routesaver option for residents of Seghill, but quite simply there may be no demand for one, as (IIRC) only two routes serve Seghill - and therefore the zonal ticket might be more useful and more appropriate for most passengers.

So it seems that the basis of your grumble is that the people of Seghill don't get a discounted ticket for journeys to/from Newcastle, but the people of Rothbury do. Whereas the people of Seghill get 30 buses a day to Newcastle, but the people of Rothbury only get 7.

I'm still intrigued about your slur on my maths abilities back in post #17. Could you explain?

Apologies, that response should have been directed overthewater. Like Arriva, you appear to mixed up with the principle that faees should be based on distances. Unless of course you are trying to justify it for some odd reason.

 

[ag51ruk]

Well up here in Merseyside both Arriva and Stagecoach seem quite good, fairly new buses, decent frequencies.
The day First went from here was a glorious day!

And yet in Cheshire, run by Arriva Merseyside as far as I can tell but remote from their core operations, they are pretty terrible and have been in decline for a number of years

 

[transmanche]

Like Arriva, you appear to mixed up with the principle that faees should be based on distances. Unless of course you are trying to justify it for some odd reason.

I'm not 'mixed-up' or 'justifying' anything. Just pointing out that in the real world public transport fares in the UK are based on market forces and not distance - by whatever mode of transport. And where zonal systems are used there's even less of a correlation between distance travelled and fare paid.

If you want a local transport fare system that is truly based on distance travelled, then the only example I can think of is the Netherlands, where you pay a boarding fee (less than €1) plus a charge per km for each journey, with the per km cost dependent on the specific operator. E.g. GVB in Amsterdam charge something like €0.155/km

 

[overthewater]

What about people going back out of Newcastle? Its been proven many times over place where you get fares set on unlimited travel within a zone drives up Passengers...

 

[ddhecks]

Roger French has recently posted on his blog an interesting piece on Arriva's future - it can be read at https://busandtrainuser.com (title of post is 'Friendly feedback for ManFred'). Thought it may be worthy of further discussion here?

I've felt for sometime that Arriva is the most lacklustre of the big groups, with some of the operating companies just far too large to be effective in the areas they run in. With the threat of more centralisation, are they likely to become another First UK Bus?

Does anyone know the details of Arriva’s announcement quoted in the blog post?

 

[Busaholic]

I think Arriva have avoided the general opprobrium directed at First in more recent years, and Stagecoach before that, by not having at the head an obvious pantomime villain, as it were. No-one doubted Souter's interest in bus operations, nor his expertise in developing a 'model' for running an effective and profitable organisation, but at what cost? His sister, Ann Gloag, was (arguably) more of a real villain while she was involved. Some on here may be able to name an Arriva chairman or chief exec of the past or present, but I'm not one of them, so Arriva have always been 'under the radar', not because they were thought to be an excellent operator but not as bad as the other two at different times. I've never lived in Arriva country, so can't comment personally. I have to say, though, that Arriva's main London operations have always seemed okay to me, particularly Arriva London South, the last of the London bus companies to be privatised because of engineering issues, which seems to have got over its poor birthright and thrived, reflected in recent industry awards. I ignore contract awards, because they can be so 'political', though thankfully not to the pathetic level of our benighted railway system.

 

[Surreyman]

Agree that Arriva tends to be somewhat 'under the radar' the new revised livery of pale bland blue is an example, doesn't so much make an impression, it's just boring, almost camouflage,
now to be fair, its not the abomination from Hell that is the FirstBus colour scheme (other opinions are available and, to quote Lou Reed 'some people have peculiar tastes').
The London operations seem to be well run and, just for balance, the days of dented panels, unrepaired scratches and faded paintwork seem to be over, at least down in darkest Surrey.
After many years of buying DAFs, in the last 5 years they seem to have switched to the usual ADL/Volvo/Wright selection, with ADL the current favourite. (No announced Orders for this year, maybe though they are just being sensible and prudent + they have a much more modern age profile).

 

[radamfi]

It should be no surprise that franchised Arriva services tend to be OK. Poor performance may lead to loss of bonuses and potentially sanctions. Whereas commercial Arriva has no incentive to improve as long as they can rely on enough punters who have no choice but to use their services.

 

[geml90]

The Arriva app to check the time, and location, of your bus - anywhere in England/Wales - was way ahead of most others and works very well. It's a shame that they don't emphasise it as a significant feature.

The live times in Google Maps are quite useful here too - tap on the bus stop and it shows whether the Arriva buses are on time or how many minutes late.

They seem quite good in parts of Durham County - the oldest bus I get is from 2015 and the newest are 2018. Both have Wi-Fi, contactless payments, USB sockets - the new ones have displays and audible announcements for the next stop. The engine even seems to switch off when the doors open at stops?

There is another operator which has none of that, but the tickets are a bit cheaper on the same routes. I was surprised First wasn't more similar with maps, Wi-Fi, etc in the South East when I visited recently.

 

[Qwerty133]

If Leicester is being presented as an example of a better area I don't want to even imagine how bad they must be elsewhere. Many journey times have now been extended so far that it is not unusual to spend 10 minutes stationary awaiting time on routes that take less than an hour end to end, buses tend to run on any route but the one they are branded for and some buses look like they haven't been cleaned in 10 years. There are also significant issues with matching capacity with demand with some routes running half empty all day and others regularly leaving people behind.

 

[ivanhoe]

If Leicester is being presented as an example of a better area I don't want to even imagine how bad they must be elsewhere. Many journey times have now been extended so far that it is not unusual to spend 10 minutes stationary awaiting time on routes that take less than an hour end to end, buses tend to run on any route but the one they are branded for and some buses look like they haven't been cleaned in 10 years. There are also significant issues with matching capacity with demand with some routes running half empty all day and others regularly leaving people behind.

This is not my experience of the 126/127/in the Loughborough area which provide 4 buses per hour from Shepshed to Leicester . The only time they tend to mess up is at Peak times, which is mainly traffic related. Most buses are half empty at certain periods and branded buses used on other routes are not the end of the world. Some buses could do with moving the detritus left by passengers more regularly although offering Free Metros doesn’t help. Leicester is the problem, and it’s a traffic nightmare for buses, particularly for many of the Arriva routes which are leaving the City for the Shires.

 

[Robertj21a]

If Leicester is being presented as an example of a better area I don't want to even imagine how bad they must be elsewhere. Many journey times have now been extended so far that it is not unusual to spend 10 minutes stationary awaiting time on routes that take less than an hour end to end, buses tend to run on any route but the one they are branded for and some buses look like they haven't been cleaned in 10 years. There are also significant issues with matching capacity with demand with some routes running half empty all day and others regularly leaving people behind.

You must be travelling at very off peak times if you're on an Arriva bus around Leicester that has to wait at a timing point. Some of their timings have had to be extended due to the terrible traffic conditions for much of the day.
Internal appearance suffers due to the amount of rubbish left behind by many thoughtless passengers but I doubt that the buses themselves are the problem given that a good proportion of the fleet was brand new in recent times.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They seem quite good in parts of Durham County - the oldest bus I get is from 2015 and the newest are 2018. Both have Wi-Fi, contactless payments, USB sockets - the new ones have displays and audible announcements for the next stop.

This is the crux of things. In Co Durham, they have a modern fleet and all the other bits and pieces.

Then you contrast and compare with 1998. They've managed to purchase Stagecoach Darlington and have consolidated their place in that town. However, they also bought Go Ahead's former OK operations in Bishop Auckland. Virtually all of that has been relinquished in stages and exacerbated after they closed the depot in that town so that they effectively bought the main route from Bishop to West and Evenwood etc, and the routes around Bishop are reduced to the main trunk routes. Longstanding services such as Bishop to Stockton have disappeared over time.

They've also closed the depot at Richmond (just over the border) so many of the services from Darlington to Richmond and Northallerton have gone except the X26/X27 trunk route. Similarly, they closed the depot at Peterlee and the town, which was effectively served 60/40 by Arriva/Go Ahead is now firmly GA territory with just a few Arriva trunk routes passing through the town.

It's a fairly evident pattern. Keep the main corridors and cede territory to independents or anyone else.

 

[Qwerty133]

You must be travelling at very off peak times if you're on an Arriva bus around Leicester that has to wait at a timing point. Some of their timings have had to be extended due to the terrible traffic conditions for much of the day.
Internal appearance suffers due to the amount of rubbish left behind by many thoughtless passengers but I doubt that the buses themselves are the problem given that a good proportion of the fleet was brand new in recent times.

Lets just say that the route in question used to have buses do a full and short (approximately 50-60% of the route) round trip in 2 hours less than 10 years ago and now doesn't even do a full round trip in that time. Many of the routes have too many timing points and have not been accurately timed meaning they are regularly waiting time on part of the route only to be late further along.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Like Arriva, you appear to mixed up with the principle that faees should be based on distances.

Fares are based on distances, even on the X7. The further you travel, the more you pay.

You seem to be arguing that all services should have the same fare stages. That's not how life works. If it was a return on the 685 to Carlisle would be 40 quid.

My experience of Arriva is hit and miss, but not any worse than Stagecoach or Go. The buses are about the same standard of care and cleanliness. The hybrids have left the North East but so have the knackered old ALX300s and most of the ALX400s. And as others have said, the mobile apps are very good, much better than anything from Go or Stagecoach.

The downsides are some "interesting" bus allocations, especially sticking single decker on the busiest peak bus from Seaton Delaval into Newcastle. The e-leather's no use if you're standing all the way...

 

[Busaholic]

Some say what makes Arriva beyond the pale now is their almost total abandonment of printed timetable information, as reported in Buses magazine ad nauseam in recent months: there may be local exceptions to this general rule. As I've said, I don't live within 100 miles of an Arriva operation, so can't quote personal experience.

 

[43055]

If Leicester is being presented as an example of a better area I don't want to even imagine how bad they must be elsewhere. Many journey times have now been extended so far that it is not unusual to spend 10 minutes stationary awaiting time on routes that take less than an hour end to end, buses tend to run on any route but the one they are branded for and some buses look like they haven't been cleaned in 10 years. There are also significant issues with matching capacity with demand with some routes running half empty all day and others regularly leaving people behind.

This is not my experience of the 126/127/in the Loughborough area which provide 4 buses per hour from Shepshed to Leicester . The only time they tend to mess up is at Peak times, which is mainly traffic related. Most buses are half empty at certain periods and branded buses used on other routes are not the end of the world. Some buses could do with moving the detritus left by passengers more regularly although offering Free Metros doesn’t help. Leicester is the problem, and it’s a traffic nightmare for buses, particularly for many of the Arriva routes which are leaving the City for the Shires.

Not much better in Derby. I commonly get the 1/1a which both routes are every 15 mins but on the way into town the buses come whenever they want with a lot of them seam to wait at the previous stop for a good 3 or 4 minutes by which point the next bus court up and then follows it into town. I have also seen two 1s or 1a's running together as well. Branding is also a issue in Derby as in the last 6 mouths there has only been only about 2 days where both of the X38 branded buses have been on the X38 together. This week F1 and sapphire vehicles has been on this week while the X38 bus was on the 1a on the same day. I do like the new livery but I cannot compare to first as I don't use them maybe time will tell but hopefully the rebrand will help improve things.

 

[rg177]

As someone who uses Arriva North East when at home, and First South Yorks at uni, I'd say Arriva have a long way to collapse before they become quite so bad.

Hopeless reliability, downright vile staff, some very uncaring behaviours (Yelling at a woman for having only a tenner and taunting her until I paid her fare was a new low, as was trying to throw someome off the last bus of the night over 5p) and an awful passenger experience on some some truly abused heaps that they call buses.

Arriva in my experience is quite tolerable, with a fair few friendly drivers and buses that while often late, do eventually arrive (unlike First).

As for fares- a single from my house to Newcastle is £2.10 on Arriva, and it's £3.10 on Go North East (although day tickets are quite similarly priced).

They were also first with contactless payments- Stagecoach and GNE following suit.

 

[Aictos]

The Arriva live map is good, way ahead of others, Stagecoach app on the other hand is awful & still has a section of a route in my area that was withdrawn 2 years ago, Arriva website is dreadful though quite often you get timed out trying to load a section.

National Express West Midlands has two apps, one is just for tickets while the other covers everything else from a live map covering their area, to telling you the next 15 or so buses from a specific bus stop to social media feeds highlighting any issues.

 

[Megafuss]

Some say what makes Arriva beyond the pale now is their almost total abandonment of printed timetable information, as reported in Buses magazine ad nauseam in recent months: there may be local exceptions to this general rule. As I've said, I don't live within 100 miles of an Arriva operation, so can't quote personal experience.

In the North East they seem to be going in the opposite direction with some quite smart publicity. Completely beating Stagecoach North East who have not updated the style since the year dot and Go North East who have abadoned timetables completely. They are at least getting one of the basics right.

 

[goldisgood]

Not quite sure if this is the right place for this, but currently Arriva Kent Thameside are taking delivery of a batch of Sapphire Streetlites to Northfleet to replace the current Streetlites, and I think, Enviro 400s on the route. Between 14 and 20 of these are expected (I'm unsure as to how many - using buslistsontheweb.co.uk I've found 14 confirmed for Kent Thameside, with 2 more confirmed for Arriva and another 4 of the same batch which could make 20. If anyone knows any more on these that would be useful. Pictures of the buses found around here https://www.flickr.com/photos/132627454@N05/32215767528/in/photostream/
Another website, derbybusdepot.co.uk, says that 19 Streetlites are expected for Derby 'this month' to replace the Optare Solos. I'm not sure if these are new or cascades, but I would expect new due to the CAZ. If anyone knows more about these, then again that would be useful.
It has been said that Arriva weren't taking delivery of new buses this year, but here goes to show that there are at least some (even if they are what many consider the worse buses!). At least 16 buses are coming, with up to 39 which I have found so far. Does anyone know of any others? Rumours of new buses for Yorkshire have been circulating, with buses supposedly coming for the 110 (Wakefield) and 202/203 (Dewsbury) which would be around 30 buses.

 

[43055]

Another website, derbybusdepot.co.uk, says that 19 Streetlites are expected for Derby 'this month' to replace the Optare Solos. I'm not sure if these are new or cascades, but I would expect new due to the CAZ. If anyone knows more about these, then again that would be useful.

Someone on facebook knew about this 5 weeks ago so they may well be here soon. In the same post there was mention of Steetdecks for Derby as well. I'm a bit surprised they are replacing the solos and not the omnicities (of the same age) like to catch fire unlike the solos but I will keep an eye out for these once they do arrive.

 

[Surreyman]

Reported in 'Surrey Live'
Arriva Southern counties Guildford depot losing money & drivers 'under consultation' re a pay cut (It seems all 120 drivers have received a letter).
Article goes on to mention loss of tenders and 'Bus War' with Safeguard (Who by the way are to launch a new route 3S in the new year to Bellfields, re-launching a route they withdrew from and left to Arriva).
As well it seems that Arriva Southern Counties (As a whole, Kent, Herts, Essex), made a loss last financial year of nearly £900,000 (** Warning caveat, we know that accountants can be 'creative' so a loss can be made/created for complex reasons).
Article states that Arrivas overall UK Bus business made a profit of £36m in 2017 (I assume this is year ending April 2018).

 

[Surreyman]

A quick correction, Arriva Southern Counties is actually correctly 'Arriva Kent & Surrey' (A look at 'Beta' Companies site shows a confusingly large number of registered companies, containing the words 'Arriva' & 'Bus' etc, some trading, some defunct.

 

[Mwanesh]

A quick correction, Arriva Southern Counties is actually correctly 'Arriva Kent & Surrey' (A look at 'Beta' Companies site shows a confusingly large number of registered companies, containing the words 'Arriva' & 'Bus' etc, some trading, some defunct.

There is also Hemel Hempstead Stevenage,Ware ,Harlow and Colchester who are all part of Arriva East Herts &Essex which is part of Southern Counties.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Arriva MK is rubbish, but not as bad as the other local operators (including Stagecoach)

 

[Mwanesh]

Arriva MK is rubbish, but not as bad as the other local operators (including Stagecoach)

Cant really say Stagecoach are bad they just pass through MK .

 

[gordonthemoron]

Cant really say Stagecoach are bad they just pass through MK .

Only X5 passes through MK, all other Stagecoach services terminate there

 

[Simon75]

I live in Stoke On Trent (First Potteries) , but surrounded by Arrivia (Cheshire/Staffordshire/Shropshire)

First Potteries aren't good

Arriva North Wesr (Winsford/Macclesfield depots)
They havnt much anymore in Crewe (since the depot closed about 10 years ago
Macclesfield area (130 Macclesfield-Manchester butchered several times over the last year(now operates only Macclesfield-East Didsbury), there depot/outstation looks run down (even though its about 15 years old)

Arriva Midlands (Staffordshire)
Stafford depot/outstation closed a few years ago, however they still run Stafford Locals (from Cannock garage 24miles away (loads of dead miles)
Sold off Burton to Midland Classic
Sold/Closed Wendsbury to Rotala