Is avoiding people getting trapped in train doors part of a guard's job...?

[anamyd]

Apologies if this is in the wrong section.

At Aberystwyth station one evening a service to Machynlleth (worked by a non-PRM unit and therefore without door obstacle detection mechanisms) was due to depart and the guard signalled this clearly with his whistle twice. The second time was due to a group of young people (passengers and their non-passenger friends) not being on or off the train for certain. While they were in the wrong, the guard let the doors continue to close while the non-passengers were still on the train and so decided made a quick escape. One person narrowly escaped getting trapped in the doors. Neither the train crew nor the passengers' friends seemed to be bothered by what happened (the driver toned his friend on the platform and the passengers' friends were acting normally after it happened) but I'm not sure what happened was right. Should the guard have first ensured that the passengers were safely on the train and their friends weren't, rather than proceeding to potentially let a person get injured by getting trapped in the doors...? Couldn't the doors have been re-opened by the guard while they were closing...?

Anyone's response / thoughts would be much appreciated.

 

[Adlington]

the guard let the doors continue to close while the non-passengers were still on the train and so decided made a quick escape

How can the guard know which folks on the train are non-passengers?

 

[74A]

How was the guard to know that some of the people on the train were not going to travel ? An alarm will go off when the doors are closing to warn you to stand clear. If you decide to pass through at that time you do so at your own risk.

 

[anamyd]

How can the guard know which folks on the train are non-passengers?

with difficulty I guess...

 

[anamyd]

How was the guard to know that some of the people on the train were not going to travel ? An alarm will go off when the doors are closing to warn you to stand clear. If you decide to pass through at that time you do so at your own risk.

so it wasn't actually possible / required for the job to have been done any better...?

 

[edwin_m]

Do the PRM modes for 158s actually include improvement to the door detection?

 

[bb21]

Was everyone onboard when the guard closed the doors?

Was anyone trapped?

When you say the guard whistled twice, did he abort the first dispatch and restart a second? If so, under what circumstance? If not, was the first whistle just a warning and he closed the door after the second?

 

[sarahj]

Door cannot be reopened once the button to close them has been pushed. Alarms will sound and then the doors shut. There have been a few heart in mouth bits where all is clear, you push the button, the alarm sounds, the doors start to close and then folks appear either running for the train or jump off at the last moment. If folks ignore the blow of the whistle, the hustle alarm then what more can you do. For me working 313's and ex 377's, once closed the only way to re open the doors was contact the driver and ask them. I'm not sure who opens them on a 158. And finally, non passengers should not get on a train, then ignore the whistle etc.

 

[twpsaesneg]

so it wasn't actually possible / required for the job to have been done any better...?

Unless the guard has a line of sight on the people inside the vestibule from the door he is at, he won't be able to see them, so he wouldn't know they were there. There's not any internal CCTV that can be monitored by the guard, so from what you describe I can't see how they could have reasonably done any more. And if no-one seemed bothered about it it presumably wasn't as near a miss as you think.

 

[Parallel]

The operation of the doors on 158s are by guards for both opening and closing. As far as I know, no 158s have detection systems, just whether interlock is reached or not. Although in no way should anyone try this, I don't think the doors are as sturdy as others think when they are in the process of closing. I've seen people pull them open whilst they've been closing on GWR before.

Although I don't work on the railway, it sounds like the guard did everything in his best effort to warn passengers that the train was ready to depart.

 

[pompeyfan]

Door cannot be reopened once the button to close them has been pushed. Alarms will sound and then the doors shut. There have been a few heart in mouth bits where all is clear, you push the button, the alarm sounds, the doors start to close and then folks appear either running for the train or jump off at the last moment. If folks ignore the blow of the whistle, the hustle alarm then what more can you do. For me working 313's and ex 377's, once closed the only way to re open the doors was contact the driver and ask them. I'm not sure who opens them on a 158. And finally, non passengers should not get on a train, then ignore the whistle etc.

Just a minor correction to this, if the doors start to close on a Desiro and the guard then presses the release buttons again, all doors that are currently in the door closing cycle (any that aren’t already proved as locked) will reopen.

 

[anamyd]

Do the PRM modes for 158s actually include improvement to the door detection?

yes, the PRM units (818/19/22/23/26/29/31/36/40 so far) have new door obstacle detection mechanisms. I spoke with the guard on the 2130 and he said that even the non-PRM units have a degree of obstacle detection on the doors, something to do with limiting pressure.

 

[anamyd]

Was everyone onboard when the guard closed the doors?

Was anyone trapped?

When you say the guard whistled twice, did he abort the first dispatch and restart a second? If so, under what circumstance? If not, was the first whistle just a warning and he closed the door after the second?

a couple of non-travelling passengers stayed on until it was almost too late so made their escape, their wrongdoing.

No-one was trapped but one person very nearly was, the doors were squishing him a bit.

Sorry not great on the terminology but the guard whistled a second time after seeing that the people were not definitely on or definitely off the train, and then after they continued messing around, he closed the doors - I guess as other replies (which I appreciate) have said, it was entirely their responsibility (or lack of) by that point.

 

[DennisM]

The guard has clearly warned that the train is ready to depart. In my experience of train dispatch groups who aren’t all travelling will continue their conversation regardless of whistles, hustle alarms, and even staff shouting to stand clear of doors. Even then a surprising amount will stand dangerously close to, touch or run alongside a departing train. I’ve witnessed far more potential PTI incidents of this nature delaying train departures than anything else.
Passengers boarding a train at its scheduled departure time, especially whilst hearing a whistle blown as they do so, shouldn’t be surprised if it subsequently leaves the station whether they were intending to travel on it or not! Unfortunately many people are too absorbed in what they’re doing and don’t consider all the other passengers, so they are happy to delay.

 

[Llanigraham]

So the correct title for this thread should actually read:
"Is avoiding non-passengers getting stuck ON a train before it departs part of a Guard's job?"
To which the answer is No, especially as in this case the Guard has already given a warning that the train is about to depart.
And knowing many of the Cambrian guards they are careful and considerate but won't put up with kids pratting around, especially at Aber or Machy. Shame in this case some of them didn't have to walk home from Borth; that might stop them doing it in the future!

 

[bunnahabhain]

Apologies if this is in the wrong section.

At Aberystwyth station at around 2030 on the 27/2/19 the 2030 Transport for Wales service to Machynlleth (worked by 158-820, a non-PRM unit and therefore without door obstacle detection mechanisms) was due to depart and the guard signalled this clearly with his whistle twice. The second time was due to a group of young people (passengers and their non-passenger friends) not being on or off the train for certain. While they were in the wrong, the guard let the doors continue to close while the non-passengers were still on the train and so decided made a quick escape. One person narrowly escaped getting trapped in the doors. Neither the train crew nor the passengers' friends seemed to be bothered by what happened (the driver toned his friend on the platform and the passengers' friends were acting normally after it happened) but I'm not sure what happened was right. Should the guard have first ensured that the passengers were safely on the train and their friends weren't, rather than proceeding to potentially let a person get injured by getting trapped in the doors...? Couldn't the doors have been re-opened by the guard while they were closing...?

Anyone's response / thoughts would be much appreciated.

You have no way of knowing who is or isn't travelling especially if they're onboard the train. Provided the dispatch corridor is clear of people, the starting signal where provided is showing proceed, and it is time to depart, then you can close the doors. If subsequently somebody appears from inside the train as the doors are closing I stop the dispatch, recommission the doors to bounce them back open, then once the above three requirements are met I restart the dispatch. It happens far more often than you'd think, mostly I assume because people are under the false understanding that the train will give them time to get their family member/friend sat down and settled with their case in the luggage racks/stacks and bid them a fond farewell and a kiss on the cheek...there isn't, I usually have 30 seconds from wheels stopping to needing them starting again!

 

[Intermodal]

It's worth noting here that being trapped in train doors doesn't hurt. They really don't close with much force at all.

I echo the comments of others in this thread. If the guard closes the doors when the dispatch corridor is clear, and all other criteria for dispatch are met, then how can he/she be at fault if someone then decides to trap themselves into the doors? If the guard then dispatched the train, or attempted to, then it would obviously be a breach of the rules - but if they simply reopen the doors then they have done everything they possibly can.

If they were on the train when they shouldn't have been then that is their issue and should they end up travelling well so be it. Don't get on a train you don't wish to travel on.

 

[krus_aragon]

If the guard then dispatched the train, or attempted to, then it would obviously be a breach of the rules

This is the key point, which I feel warrants repeating.

The guard needs to make sure the train doesn't move away with someone or something trapped in the doors (or leaning against the train, etc).

Making sure noone or nothing ever gets stuck in the doors in the first place is not a reasonable expectation. Imagine you were the guard of a 12-car train: could you watch all 24 doors at once?

A number of recent RAIB reports have highlighted the need to avoid relying on interlock indicators, and visually check the length of the train before final dispatch.

 

[221129]

It's worth noting here that being trapped in train doors doesn't hurt. They really don't close with much force at all.

That very much depends on the stock...

 

[sw1ller]

That very much depends on the stock...

Never happened to me, but I don’t fancy misjudging the doors on a 153! Or that new D-train for that matter.

 

[221129]

Never happened to me, but I don’t fancy misjudging the doors on a 153! Or that new D-train for that matter.

I can talk from experience that a Voyager door can do some serious damage!

 

[sw1ller]

I can talk from experience that a Voyager door can do some serious damage!

As an occasional user, I shall keep that in mind. Thanks.

 

[train_lover]

On some units once the guard has pushed the door close button the doors can be stopped and opened again before completely closing. However this isn't the case on all units. Sometimes you have to wait for the doors to completely close before being able to open them again.

Its important to remember here, the guard blew the whistle giving everybody advance warning that the doors would be about to close. Then when the doors were closing the hustle alarm would of sounded giving a second warning. If people choose to ignore both warnings then that's their stupidity.

What's important to remember here is from what the OP has said it sounds like the guard followed all necessary rules and procedures. Nobody was injured and nobody was killed. Passengers block doors all the time. As a guard as long a you follow your rules and procedures then that's case closed.

 

[train_lover]

Never happened to me, but I don’t fancy misjudging the doors on a 153! Or that new D-train for that matter.

The guard can stop the doors from closing fully on a 153. But they do like to bang shut!

 

[trainmania100]

Having a guard watching the doors isn't going to stop late comers making a run for the doors
If he she presses the door close button and someone out of nowhere tries to run on not a lot can be done

 

[LowLevel]

Class 158s have pressure sensor obstacle detection rather than a senstive edge. If they detect an obstruction they will pop back open again and then attempt to close.

They also have a less than reliable door recommissioning process - if the guard puts the door release back up when they're closing they might open back up or they might continue to close but will be released again.

They're 30 year old technology and don't act as you might expect.

 

[Ken H]

I tried getting on a berlin S-bahn train while the doors were closing. That hurt. The doors didnt attempt to cycle open, just kept on squeezing. I suspect the Germans take the (reasonable) view that if you prat about with train doors while closing, when you get hurt, thats your lookout. There is a loud enough warning noise to tell you.

 

[anamyd]

Class 158s have pressure sensor obstacle detection rather than a senstive edge. If they detect an obstruction they will pop back open again and then attempt to close.

They also have a less than reliable door recommissioning process - if the guard puts the door release back up when they're closing they might open back up or they might continue to close but will be released again.

They're 30 year old technology and don't act as you might expect.

Thanks for the info about the old mechs. On the so-far 9 PRM'd TfW 158s, they've been replaced with new and improved obstacle detecting ones as part of the mods in 2018-19 (I looked at the supplier's PDF) but 820 (the unit involved) along with the other 14 haven't been PRM'd yet but good to know from a second person that those ones have had some form of pressure sensing from new.

 

[anamyd]

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to reply; your replies are all appreciated! Any unanswered questions are assumed to be rhetorical.

 

[Ethano92]

From reading through the thread I feel as though it's not as common as my experiences suggest when there are times when boarding is slow as the train is full (but not full enough to not allow everyone to get on) and the guard is blowing his whistle and really hurrying people when there are still quite a few to get on. And obviously some are skilled (the guard in this example was) to know how long the doors take to close including the warning tones and slow closing doors (455 in this example) to know he can press the button to close them before the last few people by each door have made it on but surely when they do this, if someone who was always clearly intending to get on, standing by the door ready to board gets trapped it is the guards fault? Obviously this isn't what happens all the time, likely not even too often.