Is Blackpool North over-served?

[Philip]

There seems to be a large number of trains which end up at Blackpool North. The town of Blackpool is not the major holiday destination that is once was; the days of going for a week in Blackpool are of a bygone era, so why does this moderately-sized seaside town have so many rail services arriving into it, in some cases from places you wouldn't say are linked at all (London, Leeds and York as examples)?
Southport as a comparison only has a half hourly service from the national rail station (not counting the self contained Merseyrail service, which is more of a metro than a rail service).

In order to free up rolling stock for other services and routes, would it not be better, for example, if one of the arrivals from Manchester instead terminated at Preston; the York also at Preston; and the skeleton London service cut completely?

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Presumably this isn't the case in the Winter, but every time I've gone for a holiday in Blackpool - usually around August time - every Blackpool-bound train from Preston has been packed to the rafters. I have, a few times, been left at Preston to wait for the following train because my intended train was so busy it was physically impossible to get anyone else on.

I don't think a reduced service would be very beneficial given this.

Edit: Most of these were 2-car Sprinters, mind. Perhaps a reduced service may be excusable if (somehow) the existing services were given some more capacity.

 

[adrock1976]

There seems to be a large number of trains which end up at Blackpool North. The town of Blackpool is not the major holiday destination that is once was; the days of going for a week in Blackpool are of a bygone era, so why does this moderately-sized seaside town have so many rail services arriving into it, in some cases from places you wouldn't say are linked at all (London, Leeds and York as examples)?
Southport as a comparison only has a half hourly service from the national rail station (not counting the self contained Merseyrail service, which is more of a metro than a rail service).

In order to free up rolling stock for other services and routes, would it not be better, for example, if one of the arrivals from Manchester instead terminated at Preston; the York also at Preston; and the skeleton London service cut completely?

If a lot of trains were to terminate at Preston, there would not be enough platforms to do so.

Being as the line to Blackpool immediately diverges north of the station, it seems a logical place to send trains out of the way.

Regarding the Blackpool - London trains, post HS2 it could be increased to a frequency of every 60 minutes so as to provide Preston with direct trains to Warrington Bank Quay, Crewe, Stafford (the county town of Staffordshire, of which Preston (county town of Lancashire) has very little direct trains to), Nuneaton (for interchange with Leicester, not served by HS2 trains), Rugby (Warwickshire County Council are opposed to a reduction in frequency post HS2), Milton Keynes Central (a growing New Town), and Watford Junction. All of the aforementioned places (except Crewe and Stafford) will not have HS2 trains calling.

 

[The Planner]

Using through stations as terminii isn't a good idea. Blackpool North had 1.8 million entries and exits in 19/20, hardly a small number. How many trains do you think it should have and why? Your suggestion would leave it with 2tph.

 

[muddythefish]

If a lot of trains were to terminate at Preston, there would not be enough platforms to do so.

Being as the line to Blackpool immediately diverges north of the station, it seems a logical place to send trains out of the way.

Regarding the Blackpool - London trains, post HS2 it could be increased to a frequency of every 60 minutes so as to provide Preston with direct trains to Warrington Bank Quay, Crewe, Stafford (the county town of Staffordshire, of which Preston (county town of Lancashire) has very little direct trains to), Nuneaton (for interchange with Leicester, not served by HS2 trains), Rugby (Warwickshire County Council are opposed to a reduction in frequency post HS2), Milton Keynes Central (a growing New Town), and Watford Junction. All of the aforementioned places (except Crewe and Stafford) will not have HS2 trains calling.

Isn't Lancaster the county town of Lancs, not Preston?

 

[cle]

Using through stations as terminii isn't a good idea. Blackpool North had 1.8 million entries and exits in 19/20, hardly a small number. How many trains do you think it should have and why? Your suggestion would leave it with 2tph.

That’s a pretty pitiful number compared to its population - not to mention external visitors. Does anywhere fare as badly in that regard?

Also in regard to its rail service, 1.8m for the frequency there is shockingly low.

 

[Ianno87]

Using through stations as terminii isn't a good idea. Blackpool North had 1.8 million entries and exits in 19/20, hardly a small number. How many trains do you think it should have and why? Your suggestion would leave it with 2tph.

That’s a pretty pitiful number compared to its population - not to mention external visitors. Does anywhere fare as badly in that regard?

Also in regard to its rail service, 1.8m for the frequency there is shockingly low.

Though I'd expect that 1.8m to be a relatively lucrative 1.8m - people making long-ish journeys to at least Preston or beyond, not a load of people on £2 local fares.

 

[Purple Orange]

This seems like another thread where forumers take the opportunity to say “ABC station or the town or city of XYZ doesn’t deserve more than 2 tph because I judge it to not be important enough”. As others have already said, it’s a place to terminate services away from the West Coast Mainline but we should be using the railway as a means of improving the economy of towns like Blackpool. It has 2 tph to Manchester and 1 tph to Liverpool, which are two huge employment centres within decent commutable distances. Those frequencies should be higher. If Blackpool was on the south coast (sat at the end of an electrified line by a significant mainline), you’d bet it would have more than 2 tph running in to London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This seems like another thread where forumers take the opportunity to say “ABC station or the town or city of XYZ doesn’t deserve more than 2 tph because I judge it to not be important enough”. As others have already said, it’s a place to terminate services away from the West Coast Mainline but we should be using the railway as a means of improving the economy of towns like Blackpool. It has 2 tph to Manchester and 1 tph to Liverpool, which are two huge employment centres within decent commutable distances. Those frequencies should be higher. If Blackpool was on the south coast (sat at the end of an electrified line by a significant mainline), you’d bet it would have more than 2 tph running in to London.

Sounds like someone not familiar with the service patterns on SWR, Southern and Southeastern, which are not as frequent as people think they are. Bournemouth is perhaps comparable, and has 2tph to London. Eastbourne the same. OK, you could use Brighton as a comparison as that has far more, but to some extent that's a connectional regional centre in the way Blackpool isn't (because it's out on a peninsula) - more like Preston, in fact.

I had that impression too before I lived in the SE.

Other than my general view that odd couple-of-trains London services don't have value so I'd can that in favour of connections (and it does carry a lot of fresh air if you ever see it), the all-day service at Blackpool N is fine and I'd neither increase nor reduce it. Though Preston does have plenty of terminating capacity if needed, and more trains did used to terminate there than now, using platforms 1, 2, 3C, 4C, 5 and 6, plus 7 and the RES* platforms could be brought back into use were more capacity needed.

* Rail Express Systems, the former parcel platforms.

 

[Ianno87]

This seems like another thread where forumers take the opportunity to say “ABC station or the town or city of XYZ doesn’t deserve more than 2 tph because I judge it to not be important enough”. As others have already said, it’s a place to terminate services away from the West Coast Mainline but we should be using the railway as a means of improving the economy of towns like Blackpool. It has 2 tph to Manchester and 1 tph to Liverpool, which are two huge employment centres within decent commutable distances. Those frequencies should be higher. If Blackpool was on the south coast (sat at the end of an electrified line by a significant mainline), you’d bet it would have more than 2 tph running in to London.

The other thing to bear in mind is the large amount of stabling at Blackpool, and the train crew depot

Other than my general view that odd couple-of-trains London services don't have value so I'd can that in favour of connections (and it does carry a lot of fresh air if you ever see it), the all-day service at Blackpool N is fine and I'd neither increase nor reduce it. Though Preston does have plenty of terminating capacity if needed, and more trains did used to terminate there than now, using platforms 1, 2, 3C, 4C, 5 and 6, plus 7 and the RES* platforms could be brought back into use were more capacity needed.

* Rail Express Systems, the former parcel platforms.

Though the Blackpool-London services are really just Preston-London additional services extended to Blackpool in, essentially, marginal time. They are basically filling time between morning peak arrivals into Euston and evening peak departures from Euston.

 

[Purple Orange]

Sounds like someone not familiar with the service patterns on SWR, Southern and Southeastern, which are not as frequent as people think they are. Bournemouth is perhaps comparable, and has 2tph to London. Eastbourne the same. OK, you could use Brighton as a comparison as that has far more, but to some extent that's a connectional regional centre in the way Blackpool isn't (because it's out on a peninsula) - more like Preston, in fact.

I had that impression too before I lived in the SE.

Other than my general view that odd couple-of-trains London services don't have value so I'd can that in favour of connections (and it does carry a lot of fresh air if you ever see it), the all-day service at Blackpool N is fine and I'd neither increase nor reduce it. Though Preston does have plenty of terminating capacity if needed, and more trains did used to terminate there than now, using platforms 1, 2, 3C, 4C, 5 and 6, plus 7 and the RES* platforms could be brought back into use were more capacity needed.

* Rail Express Systems, the former parcel platforms.

Really? Southend sees 6 tph, Margate sees 4 tph, Dover Priory has 5 tph in to London.

 

[30907]

That’s a pretty pitiful number compared to its population - not to mention external visitors. Does anywhere fare as badly in that regard?

Also in regard to its rail service, 1.8m for the frequency there is shockingly low.

Blackpool has over twice Southport's number of visitors annually, so the potential is there and the traffic problem caused by car-bound visitors is huge.
Blackpool itself has just about the poorest population in England, but trains also serve Poulton and Kirkham and so the wealthier parts of the Fylde.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really? Southend sees 6 tph, Margate sees 4 tph, Dover Priory has 5 tph in to London.

Don't forget that many of these trains are not intended for travel to London because they will be overtaken. No Blackpool-Manchester trains are overtaken because it's double track, so all of them are trains to Manchester.

If you are including both Southend stations, you must also include Blackpool South, so we are up to 4.

Including those ones as "London trains" is about as sensible as suggesting that London Overground provides a useful service to London from Watford.

 

[37424]

There seems to be a large number of trains which end up at Blackpool North. The town of Blackpool is not the major holiday destination that is once was; the days of going for a week in Blackpool are of a bygone era, so why does this moderately-sized seaside town have so many rail services arriving into it, in some cases from places you wouldn't say are linked at all (London, Leeds and York as examples)?
Southport as a comparison only has a half hourly service from the national rail station (not counting the self contained Merseyrail service, which is more of a metro than a rail service).

In order to free up rolling stock for other services and routes, would it not be better, for example, if one of the arrivals from Manchester instead terminated at Preston; the York also at Preston; and the skeleton London service cut completely?

Blackpool is still a significant destination for day and weekend trippers, with the lights it also has something of an extended tourist season, it has a higher population than Southport and I expect a higher tourist footfall than Southport, and as already commented offers a convenient turn around point for services into Preston from the south.

In any case Southport has a frequent service just to a lesser variety of destinations, why would not count the Merseyrail service its still the main train service between Southport and a major city.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In any case Southport has a frequent service just to a lesser variety of destinations, why would not count the Merseyrail service its still the main train service between Southport and a major city.

It is, but it's a different service concept (high frequency, all stations) which wouldn't fit the longer distance service from Manchester, just as it wouldn't fit say the south WCML.

You could have an EMU shuttling back and forth to double the service from Preston, say, but would it be well used? I doubt it.

 

[Purple Orange]

Don't forget that many of these trains are not intended for travel to London because they will be overtaken. No Blackpool-Manchester trains are overtaken because it's double track, so all of them are trains to Manchester.

If you are including both Southend stations, you must also include Blackpool South, so we are up to 4.

Including those ones as "London trains" is about as sensible as suggesting that London Overground provides a useful service to London from Watford.

If we’re including both Southend stations, there are 9 tph in total to London. Whichever way it’s cut, many coastal towns in to London generally have more services than Blackpool.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If we’re including both Southend stations, there are 9 tph in total to London. Whichever way it’s cut, many coastal towns in to London generally have more services than Blackpool.

I think that's fair. However, I don't think it's particularly relevant because London commuterland is quite different from Blackpool in its demand for services, most notably because a lot of people commute to London from these places, and far fewer commute to Manchester from Blackpool (though some do).

Blackpool has had a big increase in capacity, with the Castlefield services mostly being 6x24m and the Victoria service being 4x20m, as against what was usually a single 2x23m DMU in years gone by. When that starts getting busy is time to increase it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There seems to be a large number of trains which end up at Blackpool North. The town of Blackpool is not the major holiday destination that is once was; the days of going for a week in Blackpool are of a bygone era, so why does this moderately-sized seaside town have so many rail services arriving into it, in some cases from places you wouldn't say are linked at all (London, Leeds and York as examples)?
Southport as a comparison only has a half hourly service from the national rail station (not counting the self contained Merseyrail service, which is more of a metro than a rail service).

In order to free up rolling stock for other services and routes, would it not be better, for example, if one of the arrivals from Manchester instead terminated at Preston; the York also at Preston; and the skeleton London service cut completely?

Blackpool caters for holidaymakers of all kinds who are daytrippers, those on short-break staycations as well as those staying in the resort for a week or so. Do you seriously think that the owners of Blackpool Pleasure Beach would have spent so much on it in recent times had it been "of a bygone era". Blackpool Transport have invested in a modern tram fleet to cater for both residents and holidaymakers. The resort has three piers still functioning and a known zoo.

 

[Aictos]

Blackpool caters for holidaymakers of all kinds who are daytrippers, those on short-break staycations as well as those staying in the resort for a week or so. Do you seriously think that the owners of Blackpool Pleasure Beach would have spent so much on it in recent times had it been "of a bygone era". Blackpool Transport have invested in a modern tram fleet to cater for both residents and holidaymakers. The resort has three piers still functioning and a known zoo.

Add to the fact that it hosts the UK's biggest indoor water park in the shape of The Sandcastle complex that also can be used for other purposes such as shows etc...

Reducing the number of services is a backwards step and we should maintain the existing service not take a axe to it mindlessly.

 

[adrock1976]

Isn't Lancaster the county town of Lancs, not Preston?

It was at one time, but I believe the county council headquarters are now based in Preston.

 

[Peter0124]

I can't wait until those Avanti via Birmingham services return to the pre-covid origin of Glasgow Central instead of Blackpool

 

[Aictos]

I can't wait until those Avanti via Birmingham services return to the pre-covid origin of Glasgow Central instead of Blackpool

I think the current service is fine, anyone wishing to travel to Glasgow is more likely to go via the Trent Valley and not via Birmingham.

In any case, there's nothing wrong with just using Avanti to Preston or Carlisle and changing there for a Glasgow bound service.

The via Birmingham services should all go to Edinburgh as there's faster services to Glasgow that don't have to call at Birmingham.

In any case, Avanti going to Blackpool via Birmingham is simply making more use of the sets.

 

[Bald Rick]

Presumably this isn't the case in the Winter, but every time I've gone for a holiday in Blackpool - usually around August time - every Blackpool-bound train from Preston has been packed to the rafters.

It can be the same in winter. I’ve been full and standing to Blackpool in December and February.

Southport as a comparison only has a half hourly service from the national rail station (not counting the self contained Merseyrail service, which is more of a metro than a rail service).

Comparison with Southport is valid (resort town in NW England) but to say ‘but you can’t count Merseyrail’ is.... odd.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Comparison with Southport is valid (resort town in NW England) but to say ‘but you can’t count Merseyrail’ is.... odd.

Merseyrail is a different service concept, frequent but all-stations. That concept can't really apply to Blackpool-Manchester as it's too far and there aren't paths, and I'm really not sure chucking an extra EMU in to provide Preston shuttles in the "missing" quarter hours would be well-used.

 

[RobShipway]

Those complaining about the London Euston - Blackpool services, should think themselves lucky that there is a service to Blackpool from London.

I can remember going with my parents and sister to Blackpool in the late 1970's from Birmingham. We got electric service to Crewe from Birmingham New Street, then got a service that was being run by a class 47 pulling mk2 coaches going to Blackpool North. If memory serves me correctly I think the service had started from Leicester or Derby, but I know that there was something like 3 services a day and they only ran in the summer season.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Concur with @Purple Orange. This seems to be another of the OP's series of threads proposing the rationalisation of a well-used North West area train service in order to generate an unnecessary debate!

 

[Peter0124]

I think the current service is fine, anyone wishing to travel to Glasgow is more likely to go via the Trent Valley and not via Birmingham.

In any case, there's nothing wrong with just using Avanti to Preston or Carlisle and changing there for a Glasgow bound service.

The via Birmingham services should all go to Edinburgh as there's faster services to Glasgow that don't have to call at Birmingham.

In any case, Avanti going to Blackpool via Birmingham is simply making more use of the sets.

But Glasgow still should have a link to the West Midlands, hopefully from September 13th everything comes back to pre covid on Avanti

 

[HST43257]

I think the current stuff works well

2tph 6 car 331 to Bolton and Manchester
1tph 3 car 195 to Blackburn, Bradford, Leeds and York
1tph 6 car 331 to Wigan, St Helens and Liverpool

Thats a combined 21 civity coaches, plus London stuff, from all different places so quite good.

My question would be, if the Fleetwood line opened, what would change?
My answer would be, 1tph from Manchester goes to fleetwood, bpn gets an hourly London service or something else to cover for the lost service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd extend Preston-Manchester Vic back to Fleetwood. I can't see it happening, though; Fleetwood is now served by a modern tramway.

 

[Aictos]

I'd extend Preston-Manchester Vic back to Fleetwood. I can't see it happening, though; Fleetwood is now served by a modern tramway.

To be pendantic, it's always been served by a tramway until 2012 as from then it's actually a light rail system not a modern tramway.