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Is Crossrail going to be a complete victim of its success?

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swt_passenger

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The general approach used for Victoria line cross platform interchange, of diverting one direction of the Vic through an existing station tunnel, and using one of the newly built platforms for one direction of the older line, (Bakerloo or Northern or whatever), just doesn't work when the new line has double the tunnel diameter and platform length...
 
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TheKnightWho

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The last set of excuses I read about why Custom House (another regular point for me) couldn't have been designed for cross-platform interchange was that it would have been extremely disruptive to the existing DLR service to have done so.

Now, with the Crossrail structure there pretty much complete, it has been suddenly announced that the DLR station there is to be closed for the WHOLE of 2017 to complete the works, despite that the two lines continue on their separate locations. This was never announced at any previous stage in the plans.

Still persisting with the "if it inconveniences me personally it must be rubbish" line?
 

DynamicSpirit

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It wasn't all so sunny and lovely on the Victoria Line.

The original plan was for the line to surface and terminate at Wood Street with a cross-platform interchange with the Chingford branch. This was dropped to save money.

Seemingly, so much money was spent on cross-platform interchanges there wasn't much money left for much else, such as sizing stations properly. Just ask anyone trying to enter Victoria station at about 0830 on a typical weekday morning... Now many, many millions of pounds being spent sorting it all out.

Meanwhile, it's pretty safe to say the JLE or Crossrail won't have significant station capacity issues for many, many years to come. The high point to point speed of these lines far, far outweighs the time associated with non-cross-platform interchanges being necessary to access these lines.

While it's true that many Victoria line stations desparately need more capacity, I wonder if that's directly comparable. Firstly, the Victoria line was built 50 years ago, the Jubilee extension 20 years ago, so the Victoria has had much longer for crowds to grow way beyond what might have been expected at the time of building.

Secondly, it's very noticeable that the new JLE stations have been constructed by excavating literally massive holes in the ground. Where the Victoria line and other deep tube stations have small passageways, stations like North Greenwich and Westminster have what are more like caverns - which obviously accounts in part for the large capacities of those stations. Would building stations like that have been even remotely practical in 1960s with 60s technology? Or would it have been impossible because of the existing lines in the area? (It's noticeable that at Waterloo and London Bridge, where there are other tube lines in the vicinity, the JLE design is more traditional with narrower passages.) That suggests to me that maybe the larger capacity of many JLE stations is thanks in part to a combination of more modern technology available to build them, and fewer restrictions due to other tube lines in the area.

Thirdly, to have a cross-platform interchange, you need two lines running roughly parallel. Offhand I can't think of anywhere on the JLE where that's the case - other than Canning Town, which is arguably even better than cross-platform, since it allows interchange in any direction by going up one escalator (well, it did until the DLR Stratford branch was built). (And West Ham to the DLR, or previously the North London line - but very few people woul want to make that interchange there). Presumably that accounts for the lack of cross-platform interchange anywhere else on the JLE?
 
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plcd1

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Hasn't stopped the footfall though. And have you ever heard of a JLE station needing capacity enhancement works, or additional escalators needing to be installed?

I can't see why stn design would ever prevent footfall as people don't travel just to see stns. It's what's outside that's the "pull" factor. Having been involved in all of the JLE stn designs there was a decision to certainly put in extra flexibility of the number of escalators (to allow for works and for growth). (I think) There were also claims that the stns could cope with 100 years worth of growth - that's where I'm a tad sceptical. I think we will see problems at a number of locations long before then - Canary Wharf, Waterloo, North Greenwich, Canning Town. It is also worth noting that Stratford had a lot of extra capacity added - obviously for the Games and Westfield - but that place struggles in the peak where there are huge waves of people to / from the Jubilee Line.

It's all very easy for anyone to criticise the designs but they're not tasked with balancing costs, benefits, "buildability", disruption etc. To date Crossrail has done extremely well in getting through the construction phase without too many issues although I think Whitechapel has proved a tough nut to crack. Compare with the multiple woes that Hong Kong MTRC has had / is having with its current round of projects - every single one late with construction and geological problems being prominent issues. This is quite a shock for Hong Kongers who have previously had "on time & on budget" project delivery for MTR routes.

Crossrail *may* struggle to get through the next 2 years as I've always felt system installation, integration and commissioning is much harder and more fraught than digging tunnels and stn boxes. Let's hope they don't though. :D
 

ScotGG

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^ This ^

Reading this thread I have learnt that the Abbey Wood branch will be full from day one but that the time penalty for using it means that nobody will swap from the SE services but they should have built Crossrail to Dartford anyway.

I don't think anyone said it'll be full from day one. I said few available seats is possible within 5 years (that's about 25% of total train capacity) which will impact on those changing coming in from Kent coupled with the time penalty from a non-platform interchange.

It could be pretty busy even without people changing of course when factoring in housebuilding within a few miles radius. 50k more
people in Thamesmead for example, though they will possibly have a DLR link too by then.

Anyway, your assumption that I and others don't like it is far from accurate, for me at least and I think others. It's the best thing in London infrastructure in 50 years. Much needed. Doesn't mean can't query and be intrigued be certain elements and how it impacts upon existing links.
 
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D365

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I can't see why stn design would ever prevent footfall as people don't travel just to see stns. It's what's outside that's the "pull" factor. Having been involved in all of the JLE stn designs there was a decision to certainly put in extra flexibility of the number of escalators (to allow for works and for growth). (I think) There were also claims that the stns could cope with 100 years worth of growth - that's where I'm a tad sceptical. I think we will see problems at a number of locations long before then - Canary Wharf, Waterloo, North Greenwich, Canning Town. It is also worth noting that Stratford had a lot of extra capacity added - obviously for the Games and Westfield - but that place struggles in the peak where there are huge waves of people to / from the Jubilee Line.

My point is this supposed "poor station design" has had no detrimental effect to expected passenger numbers since opening Indeed, as you state, it's unlikely that they'll see out the next 80 years without needing any sort of upgrade.

It's all very easy for anyone to criticise the designs but they're not tasked with balancing costs, benefits, "buildability", disruption etc. To date Crossrail has done extremely well in getting through the construction phase without too many issues although I think Whitechapel has proved a tough nut to crack. Compare with the multiple woes that Hong Kong MTRC has had / is having with its current round of projects - every single one late with construction and geological problems being prominent issues. This is quite a shock for Hong Kongers who have previously had "on time & on budget" project delivery for MTR routes.

Crossrail *may* struggle to get through the next 2 years as I've always felt system installation, integration and commissioning is much harder and more fraught than digging tunnels and stn boxes. Let's hope they don't though. :D

I agree entirely, Crossrail has been doing a fantastic job so far. Fingers crossed for the systems teams - if I were a few years older I might have been working with them!
 

Class 170101

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The last set of excuses I read about why Custom House (another regular point for me) couldn't have been designed for cross-platform interchange was that it would have been extremely disruptive to the existing DLR service to have done so.

Now, with the Crossrail structure there pretty much complete, it has been suddenly announced that the DLR station there is to be closed for the WHOLE of 2017 to complete the works, despite that the two lines continue on their separate locations. This was never announced at any previous stage in the plans.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is more of this to come over the rest of the route where Crossrail / TfL are concerned. The project comes across as though they are in disarray.
 

rebmcr

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It's unlikely that they'll see out the next 80 years without needing any sort of upgrade.

Agreed, Canning Town especially needs better pedestrian access than spewing everyone out onto a narrow pavement in a bus station alongside a busy A road. An underpass at ticket hall level beneath the road would be exceptionally better than the current arrangement.
 

D365

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The project comes across as though they are in disarray.

What on earth are you on about? Custom House DLR is a small station which means it's far safer to close it while works are taking place. As has been said earlier, Prince Regent and Royal Victoria stations are each less than a kilometre anyway.
 

AM9

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What on earth are you on about? Custom House DLR is a small station which means it's far safer to close it while works are taking place. As has been said earlier, Prince Regent and Royal Victoria stations are each less than a kilometre anyway.

... there is a covered entrance directly from the Prince Regent platforms into the eastern end of the Excel atrium. Looks like a perfectly sensible way to manage the works rather than faffing around for five years, continually chopping and changing Custom House arrangements.
There are so many detractors on this forum ready to criticise, who have probably never had to plan and execute a project more complicated than boiling an egg!
 

TheDavibob

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Secondly, it's very noticeable that the new JLE stations have been constructed by excavating literally massive holes in the ground. Where the Victoria line and other deep tube stations have small passageways, stations like North Greenwich and Westminster have what are more like caverns - which obviously accounts in part for the large capacities of those stations. Would building stations like that have been even remotely practical in 1960s with 60s technology?

Pretty sure it was technologically possible - compare it with the cavernous stations of the RER at the same sort of time, albeit at considerably higher expense.
 

Busaholic

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While it's true that many Victoria line stations desparately need more capacity, I wonder if that's directly comparable. Firstly, the Victoria line was built 50 years ago, the Jubilee extension 20 years ago, so the Victoria has had much longer for crowds to grow way beyond what might have been expected at the time of building.

Another consideration with the Victoria Line was the expectation that a Hackney to Chelsea line would follow, if not imminently then certainly within fifteen years. These (revised and expanded) plans now form part of Crossrail 2
 

321over360

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Crossrail (which it should always been known as IMO and not the Elizabeth Line {Meaning a Tube Line which it isnt as it a National Rail service therefore Should Remain as Crossrail}) will be helpful as contrary to some belief it will take some pressure off the Central Line between Stratford and the West End as given the Cross Platform interchange at Stratford between Central Line and TFL Rail services, most on the Westbound Platform in the Morning peaks have alighted from a TFL Rail service to continue into London, however if the same train you have alighted from continues to say Tottenham Crt Road or Bond Street you are not going to get off and join the what will be slower Central Line, in fact by timetable comparison, the Central Line does Stratford to Liverpool Street in the same time as a TFL Rail train does in its timetable but if you want the West End, or say Farringdon, Crossrail will be significantly quicker to these points as wont stop as often, however i wonder if once Crossrail opens, whether or not TFL will visit suggestions/calls to build Shoreditch High Street on the Central Line for Interchange with LO ELL services (though this would have to be built with Platforms like Holborn), so in theory Crossrail will be a success, at least in the London Zonal Part, im not sure of the impact it will have upon the Maidenhead/Reading branch but will definitely improve GEML Metro capacity and alleviate Central Line trains, possibly even take some strain off the Circle and H& City Lines
 
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