Is Delay Repay unfair?

[robbeech]

I recently did Cambridge-Birmingham-Stafford on an XC-only advance. The Birmingham-Stafford XC service ran over 30 minutes late, so I was entitled to Delay Repay.

Another passenger doing the journey on a walk-up ticket would have been expected to get the first available alternative service (e.g. an LNWR service), so not entitled to Delay Repay.

So I benefitted more (in repayment terms), by paying less (but got more of a delay inconvenience).

The toc benefited more from your ticket due to how the fares are allocated. As such they have to accept the additional hit when they fail to provide the service expected.

 

[404250]

All tickets which allow break of journey can be used to abuse delay repay. You could deliberately delay yourself by stopping short or breaking your journey at a point when a train is 15 mins late. The train might make up time later, which you could assume from knowledge of the timetable or past patterns, but wouldn't know for sure at the time you decide to get off.

There is no way a TOC could say you intended to stay on the train to the end of your ticket, they just have to take your word for it, well unless you post about it on railforums.

And if you had say an off peak ticket, get to the station and find a train in 5 mins which is running 30mins late, and a train in 8 mins which is on time. You would normally have got the train in 8 mins but because you can get on the late running one before you could claim delay.

 

[robbeech]

And if you had say an off peak ticket, get to the station and find a train in 5 mins which is running 30mins late, and a train in 8 mins which is on time. You would normally have got the train in 8 mins but because you can get on the late running one before you could claim delay.

Quite, although you have to bear in mind that a train running 3 minutes behind another to the same destination might be a stopping train and as such you might arrive quicker if you waited for your original late running service, or indeed wait for a different service altogether. TOCs seem to deal with this differently, some will accept that it isn't particularly easy to determine the best solution and will pay out based on your actual arrival time even if you didn't necessarily get the best alternative service, others will only pay out on the next best alternative EVEN IF you couldn't physically catch it.

Is delay repay fair? There are obvious flaws in the whole system, but for the most part they fall in favour of the operator (where passengers are being honest) so any changes will yield less favourable results for the passengers.

 

[xotGD]

And if you had say an off peak ticket, get to the station and find a train in 5 mins which is running 30mins late, and a train in 8 mins which is on time. You would normally have got the train in 8 mins but because you can get on the late running one before you could claim delay.

And then when you claim Delay Repay the time stamp on your ticket shows that you arrived at the station well after the delayed train was due. Showing you've made a dodgy claim.

That is of course if you collected / bought your ticket when you got there.

 

[Ianno87]

And then when you claim Delay Repay the time stamp on your ticket shows that you arrived at the station well after the delayed train was due. Showing you've made a dodgy claim.

That is of course if you collected / bought your ticket when you got there.

Though it's entirely reasonable (in my view) to check online that your intended train is running late beforehand, and turn up after the scheduled departure time when the train is actually due, without being fraudulent.

The time stamp issue would be inevitable when boarding at a station requiring ticket purchase from.the conductor.

 

[SteveM70]

And then when you claim Delay Repay the time stamp on your ticket shows that you arrived at the station well after the delayed train was due. Showing you've made a dodgy claim.

That is of course if you collected / bought your ticket when you got there.

A debate I’ve had - and won - more than once with Northern. I refuse to go through the gateline at Victoria until I absolutely need to, particularly now most Calder Valley trains go from platform 6 which is dark, fume-filled and generally pretty horrible. And it’s entirely logical behaviour because 100% of the passenger facilities at Victoria are outside the gateline

 

[Tetchytyke]

Could just scrap it and reduce fares?

ASLEF have previously produced figures to show that TOCs make a net profit from delay compensation.

I actually think Delay Repay should kick in at 15 minutes.

 

[Tetchytyke]

because you can get on the late running one before you could claim delay.

No you couldn't. Or at least not legitimately. Delay compensation applies to your specific journey. Your train can be six hours late, but if you are on time, no payout.

And TOCs have ways of checking for Delay Repay fraud.

 

[xotGD]

Though it's entirely reasonable (in my view) to check online that your intended train is running late beforehand, and turn up after the scheduled departure time when the train is actually due, without being fraudulent.

The time stamp issue would be inevitable when boarding at a station requiring ticket purchase from.the conductor.

Two valid points, although with the first you might end up having to defend yourself against an accusation of a false claim.

 

[404250]

No you couldn't. Or at least not legitimately. Delay compensation applies to your specific journey. Your train can be six hours late, but if you are on time, no payout.

And TOCs have ways of checking for Delay Repay fraud.

I wouldn't claim falsely myself but can't see how they would check this. Even if they checked station CCTV for your arrival time. If the train was 6hrs late and you had bought ticket earlier and been checking the times online you could have been sitting in the pub around the corner waiting for it to turn up.

 

[404250]

ASLEF have previously produced figures to show that TOCs make a net profit from delay compensation.

I actually think Delay Repay should kick in at 15 minutes.

Could you explain this?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Could you explain this?

It was the TSSA, not ASLEF, apologies.

TOCs receive more in delay compensation than they pay out to passengers. TSSA in 2014 showed the profit was about £140m a year.

I wouldn't claim falsely myself but can't see how they would check this.

For a one-off, they couldn't really prove anything. But if it became a regular occurrence you can expect the TOC to investigate a claim more thoroughly.

 

[404250]

It was the TSSA, not ASLEF, apologies.

TOCs receive more in delay compensation than they pay out to passengers. TSSA in 2014 showed the profit was about £140m a year.



For a one-off, they couldn't really prove anything. But if it became a regular occurrence you can expect the TOC to investigate a claim more thoroughly.

Receive from who though? That's crazy if the case. I thought it was to encourage TOCs to operate to timetable?

 

[bb21]

It was the TSSA, not ASLEF, apologies.

TOCs receive more in delay compensation than they pay out to passengers. TSSA in 2014 showed the profit was about £140m a year.



For a one-off, they couldn't really prove anything. But if it became a regular occurrence you can expect the TOC to investigate a claim more thoroughly.

They are irrelevant comparisons. Delay Repay has nothing to do with compensation received from Network Rail, which are intended to cover other costs.

This has been done to death on this forum.

 

[yorkie]

And then when you claim Delay Repay the time stamp on your ticket shows that you arrived at the station well after the delayed train was due. Showing you've made a dodgy claim.

Not true. I was at the station where I boarded my train 3 hours before it was due to leave as I was in a cafe there. However there will be no record of this fact. I went through the gate once the platform was confirmed and only a few minutes before the train arrived into the platform. Any 'time stamp' recorded in association with the ticket (which would only apply with e-tickets, not paper ones) would only show the time I went through the barriers, and NOT the time I arrived at the station.

They are irrelevant comparisons. Delay Repay has nothing to do with compensation received from Network Rail, which are intended to cover other costs.

This has been done to death on this forum.

Agreed, and the suggestion that a TOC "profits" from a delay ignores the additional costs incurred such as overtime payments. The calculations tend to assume that TOCs incur no costs whatsoever, other than the pure face value of the Delay Repay claims, which is an absurd suggestion.

 

[BigCj34]

As long as we are going to have flexible tickets, the possibility to take advantage of Delay Repay is always going to be there, as it relies on intentions. A passenger could tactically boarding a late service, technically eligible by the letter of the law but violates the spirit, or saying they got a different service altogether (which is fraudulent). There is no way to change the system that could work for everyone, and it is unlikely fraud is so much of an issue that it is worth using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Automatic delay repay is fine as it is for fixed tickets, it could theoretically be expanded for trips that involve changes but that would mean all connecting services requiring a reservation. Time-stamping or ticket 'composting' could work for flexible tickets, but would penalise people who choose to go to the station later if they know their service is delayed (and would make a mockery of advising passengers to check before they travel).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Agreed, and the suggestion that a TOC "profits" from a delay ignores the additional costs incurred such as overtime payments.

Indeed it is a simplistic calculation, though I do think the gist of TSSA's point remains correct.

My comment was a response to the idea that abolishing Delay Repay would somehow see reduced fares, as though it was costing TOCs a lot of money.

 

[xotGD]

Not true. I was at the station where I boarded my train 3 hours before it was due to leave as I was in a cafe there. However there will be no record of this fact. I went through the gate once the platform was confirmed and only a few minutes before the train arrived into the platform. Any 'time stamp' recorded in association with the ticket (which would only apply with e-tickets, not paper ones) would only show the time I went through the barriers, and NOT the time I arrived at the station.

Sorry, I don't think I was clear - I meant the time that is printed on your ticket that shows when you bought / collected it. Nothing to do with ticket barriers.

 

[hooverboy]

Very wise. And he had a whole Range of supporters!

I thought he made models