Is Eurostar a Wasted Opportunity?

[radamfi]

we do: Dutchflyer £55 each way. Seems a decent price to me.

It's not a bad option for the Netherlands and maybe northern Germany but it is a long way around for Belgium compared to the former Dover-Oostende route. It's also more expensive at short notice and can often be sold out, especially on the overnight ferry. I just checked the fare today is £70, plus compulsory cabin on the overnight services.

 

[DarloRich]

It's not a bad option for the Netherlands and maybe northern Germany but it is a long way around for Belgium compared to the former Dover-Oostende route. It's also more expensive at short notice and can often be sold out, especially on the overnight ferry. I just checked the fare today is £70, plus compulsory cabin on the overnight services.

£70 for rail travel in 2 countries and overnight accommodation still seems decent to me. I couldn't fly and get a hotel for that.

PS my geography may be faulty but is Holland not adjacent to Belgium and served by numerous cross border trains?

 

[radamfi]

£70 for rail travel in 2 countries and overnight accommodation still seems decent to me. I couldn't fly and get a hotel for that.

PS my geography may be faulty but is Holland not adjacent to Belgium and served by numerous cross border trains?

The cabin is on top so that makes it £104. Seat 61 suggests using the Hoek van Holland ferry as an option for getting to Belgium but clearly it isn't as direct as the Dover to Oostende ferry used to be. There used to be a fast ferry taking about 2 hours from Dover to Oostende and ferries were frequent.

 

[misterredmist]

I'm in Amsterdam right now having used the Eurostar end to end yesterday. It cost us £35 each (although I then bought an upgrade to Standard Premier) which I think is very cheap. Yes, it is almost 4 hours long, but that's not bad for the distance. It was so convenient though. Straight from train to tram in Amsterdam and to our hotel. If they do enhance the route, it would be useful if they start selling tram tickets on board like they do for the Metro in Paris. Another big plus for us was not having to wait around for bags on arrival.

There were large queues at customs in St Pancras but they moved really quickly and I found the whole process far more efficient than the airport.

So a big thumbs up for the Amsterdam Eurostar from me. But to be fair, l'm on a leisure trip so don't need to be places quickly.

How busy was the service ? we are thinking taking the train on our next trip to the 'Dam

 

[cuccir]

I think we'd all find it great if there were half hourly trains, with walk on fares at under £100 return, connecting London and Paris.

But I also think the various infrastructural and political reasons that have been given offer a good account for why that's not going to happen, and I think it's fair to say that attempting to cater for such a market could well threaten Eurostar's core business market.

For me Eurostar is not quite missed opportunity, but it's a shame it didn't really revolutionize cross-channel travel in the way I think everyone had hoped that it might.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm in Amsterdam right now having used the Eurostar end to end yesterday. It cost us £35 each (although I then bought an upgrade to Standard Premier) which I think is very cheap. Yes, it is almost 4 hours long, but that's not bad for the distance. It was so convenient though. Straight from train to tram in Amsterdam and to our hotel. If they do enhance the route, it would be useful if they start selling tram tickets on board like they do for the Metro in Paris. Another big plus for us was not having to wait around for bags on arrival.

There were large queues at customs in St Pancras but they moved really quickly and I found the whole process far more efficient than the airport.

So a big thumbs up for the Amsterdam Eurostar from me. But to be fair, l'm on a leisure trip so don't need to be places quickly.

That sounds very good indeed, and reasonably priced!

I suppose the issue might be that central London - Amsterdam via Eurostar is competing with LCY - AMS - car to the city for the business market which values time and flexibility (and clearly LCY will have more choice of departures). 4 hours each way is just that little bit too long for an out and back day trip.

But, as a leisure traveller who likes trains, your deal sounds like a no brainer! Let’s hope it’s expanded.

 

[DarloRich]

For me Eurostar is not quite missed opportunity, but it's a shame it didn't really revolutionize cross-channel travel in the way I think everyone had hoped that it might.

But I think it has done that. 2 hours London to Brussels and the UK connected to a Europe wide network of high speed services. I can leave London at breakfast time and arrive in the south of France or Spain or Germany, with one change by tea time.

 

[Journeyman]

But I think it has done that. 2 hours London to Brussels and the UK connected to a Europe wide network of high speed services. I can leave London at breakfast time and arrive in the south of France or Spain or Germany, with one change by tea time.

That's what I thought! Look how many people have switched from planes and ferries to Eurostar. It's the default method of heading to Europe for a lot of people now.

 

[DarloRich]

That's what I thought! Look how many people have switched from planes and ferries to Eurostar. It's the default method of heading to Europe for a lot of people now.

exactly - what it isnt is a turn up and go railway service. It is more like an airline

 

[Bromley boy]

It's not a bad option for the Netherlands and maybe northern Germany but it is a long way around for Belgium compared to the former Dover-Oostende route. It's also more expensive at short notice and can often be sold out, especially on the overnight ferry. I just checked the fare today is £70, plus compulsory cabin on the overnight services.

I’m honestly not sure what it is you think Eurostar has taken away from you?

It offers a city centre to city centre service, with competitive prices for both leisure and business travellers. It is far more convenient than rail ferry rail could ever be.

If you want to do rail ferry rail for the sake of it, why not just get a train to Dover, pay for a foot crossing and then buy a continental rail ticket?

If the number of ferry services has declined that’s more down to Le Shuttle than Eurostar.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

It just needs a few more through workings to places like Cologne & Frankfurt - and Birmingham and Manchester.

Getting from Euston to St Pancras is a drag with heavy luggage, particularly if you have limited mobility. Taxi queues can be horrendous and taxi drivers hate people doing very short journeys. There are convenient buses outbound but coming back you have to cross busy Euston Rd and hope you can get a 59 or 476 to stop. Many 476's will zoom past in the outside lane even if you step into the road and stick your hand out, the drivers not believing that passengers only want to travel two stops. And as for the tube - you have to walk that far to get to and from the platforms that you might as well not bother. And after all that, you have the mad Le Mans start when you try to board your train home from Euston and just have to hope Virgin have put the seat reservations on.

Changing stations in Paris is equally problematical for the mobility impaired. Try finding an easy route from Gare du Nord to Gare de l'Est if you're mobility impaired without queueing ages for a taxi. You also have to be very careful to avoid taxi touts. You end up walking miles and climbing many stairs if you try to use the metro and working the bus routes out is a nightmare.

I am speaking from experience as I have made all these journeys with people who have struggled.

 

[radamfi]

I’m honestly not sure what it is you think Eurostar has taken away from you?

It offers a city centre to city centre service, with competitive prices for both leisure and business travellers. It is far more convenient than rail ferry rail could ever be.

If you want to do rail ferry rail as a foot passenger for the sake of it, why not just get a train to Dover, pay for a foot crossing and then buy a continental rail ticket?

If the number of ferry services has declined that’s more down to Le Shuttle than Eurostar.

You used to be able to go to France or Belgium at no notice at reasonable fares. If Eurostar was affordable at short notice then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I mentioned earlier that it is still possible to use the ferry as a foot passenger but it is a lot more expensive because of the withdrawal of through tickets, it is less convenient and takes longer because the stations are not near the ports any more, it is less frequent, and there is no longer a night service for foot passengers.

If Eurostar is too expensive then London to Brugge or Gent now involves train to Dover, walk/taxi to the docks, ferry to Calais, walk to Calais Ville, train/bus to Dunkerque, bus to De Panne then train (or train via Lille). Or via Hoek van Holland, Rotterdam and Antwerpen. Or by coach. All these options are far worse than getting the ferry to Oostende.

I just looked in the back of the 1997 national rail timetable when through fares were still available and you could get a 5 day return to Paris or Brussels, on the day, for £49. Or a 2 month return for £59/£69.

 

[urbophile]

Euston to St Pancras is a doddle compared to getting from Gare du Nord to most other stations in Paris. If you are coming from France and want to connect with anywhere in the Midlands, North or Scotland it's easy to do so from a station that is adjacent or nearly so. I take the point about people with heavy luggage or mobility problems getting to Euston, but that's nothing compared to Gare de Lyon or (even worse) Montparnasse . Would it be possible to create a dedicated roadway for the passenger assistance buggies between Euston and St P I wonder?
And another anomaly: while the privatised and disintegrated British network lets you buy a ticket that includes cross-London travel, the publicly owned French system makes you buy a separate ticket for the Paris Métro. I'm surprised there hasn't been a campaign against this.

 

[CMS]

“0700 is too late for the first Paris departure”

Well. It’s a minute earlier than now...

No, there is a 0540 on weekdays and a 0618 on Saturdays. If you looked up the trains for today, the 0701 would be the first but today is an exception - the 0540 doesn't run during the Christmas holidays, French bank holidays and most of August. During busy times of the year, there is sometimes an extra departure either at around 0630 or 0730 too.

There used to be an 0525 when St Pancras opened to ensure a pre-9am arrival in Paris. I suspect that there wasn't the demand for such an early departure (0455 check-in), so it was pushed back. The 0540 stops in Kent so is slightly more palatable at around 6.30am.

 

[DarloRich]

If Eurostar is too expensive then London to Brugge

Eurostar to any Belgian or Dutch station from £69 return.

If you want to do rail ferry rail for the sake of it, why not just get a train to Dover, pay for a foot crossing and then buy a continental rail ticket?

An interrail pass for 3 days offers really good value in my book

 

[radamfi]

Eurostar to any Belgian or Dutch station from £69 return.

The lowest fare to any Belgian station going today, coming back tomorrow, is £276.

 

[DarloRich]

The lowest fare to any Belgian station going today, coming back tomorrow, is £276.

but, we are always told here, people need to book in advance! That is only slightly more than the cheapest air fare I can find for a similar journey.

 

[HowardGWR]

Yes, but I understood the discussion is about cheap walk up fares with only last second reservation?

 

[radamfi]

but, we are always told here, people need to book in advance! That is only slightly more than the cheapest air fare I can find for a similar journey.

That's the whole point. We never used to have to book in advance.

 

[DarloRich]

That's the whole point. We never used to have to book in advance.

You had to book in advance for air travel - which is what Eurostar is really!

 

[gordonthemoron]

walking from Euston to St Pancras, and vice versa, via Somerstown is really easy

 

[Bromley boy]

You used to be able to go to France or Belgium at no notice at reasonable fares. If Eurostar was affordable at short notice then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I mentioned earlier that it is still possible to use the ferry as a foot passenger but it is a lot more expensive because of the withdrawal of through tickets, it is less convenient and takes longer because the stations are not near the ports any more, it is less frequent, and there is no longer a night service for foot passengers.

If Eurostar is too expensive then London to Brugge or Gent now involves train to Dover, walk/taxi to the docks, ferry to Calais, walk to Calais Ville, train/bus to Dunkerque, bus to De Panne then train (or train via Lille). Or via Hoek van Holland, Rotterdam and Antwerpen. Or by coach. All these options are far worse than getting the ferry to Oostende.

Unfortunately the market for people deciding on a whim to spend all day doing a journey that can now be done in a couple of hours (and unwilling to pay much to do it!) isn’t going to be worth catering for.

Boat train to Dover western docks etc. was only ever on offer because there was no better alternative. Trying to replicate that now will inevitably be less convenient since infrastructure is driven by demand. And that demand from the vast majority is to get from A to B as quickly as possible for a decent price - most will also happily book in advance to get this.

You still have the option to do it, of course (albeit infrastructure will have changed due to changing demand) and if you have a railcard and are prepared to book in advance, I’m sure you can limit the cost.

I just looked in the back of the 1997 national rail timetable when through fares were still available and you could get a 5 day return to Paris or Brussels, on the day, for £49. Or a 2 month return for £59/£69.

I’m not convinced...

Have you compared the 1997 figures to the price of the nearest modern day equivalent journey, in inflation adjusted terms, with all available railcards and discounts etc.?

 

[Clip]

That's the whole point. We never used to have to book in advance.

You never had the eurostar back then either - the world has moved on so you really need to move with it - E* isnt the problem for you its the removal of other fares that you seem to have an issue with so take it up with them.

Eurostar to any Belgian or Dutch station from £69 return.

We went to Frankfurt a couple of years ago for that price. Fantastic deal and value for money.

It just needs a few more through workings to places like Cologne & Frankfurt - and Birmingham and Manchester.

Getting from Euston to St Pancras is a drag with heavy luggage, particularly if you have limited mobility. Taxi queues can be horrendous and taxi drivers hate people doing very short journeys. There are convenient buses outbound but coming back you have to cross busy Euston Rd and hope you can get a 59 or 476 to stop. Many 476's will zoom past in the outside lane even if you step into the road and stick your hand out, the drivers not believing that passengers only want to travel two stops. And as for the tube - you have to walk that far to get to and from the platforms that you might as well not bother. And after all that, you have the mad Le Mans start when you try to board your train home from Euston and just have to hope Virgin have put the seat reservations on.
.

No need to cross any busy Euston road - there is a signposted route round the back of the British Library which is very quick and simple when you come out by the Thameskink entrance

 

[Bletchleyite]

But I think it has done that. 2 hours London to Brussels and the UK connected to a Europe wide network of high speed services. I can leave London at breakfast time and arrive in the south of France or Spain or Germany, with one change by tea time.

Indeed so. The only thing it lacks is the ability to go for a cheap spontaneous day trip, but then that's not a Eurostar thing, that's a Romance style high speed rail thing (the pricing model is basically identical to TGV). (It's an airline thing to a much lesser extent - these days you can often bag a relative[1] bargain on easyJet and Ryanair quite close to departure, even same day).

[1] I'm talking comparable to a medium to long distance Off Peak Return for a Saturday day trip.

 

[jopsuk]

You used to be able to go to France or Belgium at no notice at reasonable fares. If Eurostar was affordable at short notice then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I mentioned earlier that it is still possible to use the ferry as a foot passenger but it is a lot more expensive because of the withdrawal of through tickets, it is less convenient and takes longer because the stations are not near the ports any more, it is less frequent, and there is no longer a night service for foot passengers.

That's not the fault of Eurostar.

That's Ryanair and Easyjet, mainly, which have absolutely destroyed foot traffic on ferries and reduced tourist car traffic (Sea France fell because the Dover routes didn't have sufficient traffic). It's why there's still a lot of cross north sea ferry routes that are commercial traffic only. It's why DFDS don't take foot traffic on the Dunkirk route and the Dunkirk port was moved out of town to be somewhere more convenient for getting lorries to the autoroute. There's only enough traffic to support one Bruges ferry/freight terminal, so Zeebrugge, as the modern large port, won out, making Oostende untenable. Ramsgate, Folkestone and Boulogne ferry ports suffered similar fates.

Port railway stations suffered as passenger numbers first dwindled and ports were moved to new locations better suited for road traffic (although arguably at Dover the land reclamation to create the modern Eastern docks should have instead happened at the West Docks)

All this would have happened without the tunnel, most likely, and Eurostar, as a massively successful business, has no need to offer the cheap last minute fares you're after.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Euston to St Pancras is a doddle compared to getting from Gare du Nord to most other stations in Paris. If you are coming from France and want to connect with anywhere in the Midlands, North or Scotland it's easy to do so from a station that is adjacent or nearly so. I take the point about people with heavy luggage or mobility problems getting to Euston, but that's nothing compared to Gare de Lyon or (even worse) Montparnasse .

A couple of years ago, Eurostar suddenly decided to "expire" all the loyalty points I had saved up for my retirement meaning I had to spend the lot in 6 months. These could only be used for a limited number of destinations beyond Paris (or Brussels) so we ended up having three mini holidays to Strasbourg (& Colmar), Brussels (& Gent) and Biarritz (& San Sebastian). Getting to Montparnasse for the latter was indeed a pain and we ended up queueing for 45 mins for an expensive taxi then spending the night in a hotel outside the station (Hooton to Biarritz wasn't practical in a day). Inflexible ticketing meant we had to add a good deal of contingency time most times we changed trains and this added unnecessary stress to our journeys.

 

[radamfi]

I’m not convinced...

Have you compared the 1997 figures to the price of the nearest modern day equivalent journey, in inflation adjusted terms, with all available railcards and discounts etc.?

What aren't you convinced about? I just copied the fares out of the timetable book. £49 in 1997 is £87 in 2018. An Off-Peak Return London to Dover (not HS1) with a Network Railcard is £24.55 and the ferry crossings are £25 each way. So that's already £74.55 to get only as far as Calais. If I want to go early in the morning from London, which I would more than likely want to, then I can't use the Network Railcard and have to get an Anytime ticket. There is the Calais Anytime Day Return for £28.55 so in theory you could buy two of those (one for each direction). You might be able to get away with that on the outward but you won't have a ferry coupon for the return.

 

[Clip]

What aren't you convinced about? I just copied the fares out of the timetable book. £49 in 1997 is £87 in 2018. An Off-Peak Return London to Dover (not HS1) with a Network Railcard is £24.55 and the ferry crossings are £25 each way. So that's already £74.55 to get only as far as Calais. If I want to go early in the morning from London, which I would more than likely want to, then I can't use the Network Railcard and have to get an Anytime ticket. There is the Calais Anytime Day Return for £28.55 so in theory you could buy two of those (one for each direction). You might be able to get away with that on the outward but you won't have a ferry coupon for the return.

Out of interest how often do you wake up and think 'Ooh ill just pop to Paris for the day'??

 

[radamfi]

That's not the fault of Eurostar.

That's Ryanair and Easyjet, mainly, which have absolutely destroyed foot traffic on ferries and reduced tourist car traffic (Sea France fell because the Dover routes didn't have sufficient traffic). It's why there's still a lot of cross north sea ferry routes that are commercial traffic only. It's why DFDS don't take foot traffic on the Dunkirk route and the Dunkirk port was moved out of town to be somewhere more convenient for getting lorries to the autoroute. There's only enough traffic to support one Bruges ferry/freight terminal, so Zeebrugge, as the modern large port, won out, making Oostende untenable. Ramsgate, Folkestone and Boulogne ferry ports suffered similar fates.

Eurotunnel still manage to run several trains per hour and if all that traffic were on ferries instead there would be many more ferries operating. Eurotunnel should take foot passengers along the lines of the Connex coach service.

You could say the same thing about London to Dublin but there are still cheap rail-sea-rail tickets on that route.

 

[Clip]

Eurotunnel still manage to run several trains per hour and if all that traffic were on ferries instead there would still be many ferries operating.

But theyre not because its quicker through the tunnel or else they would still use the ferries!!