Is Grayling the worst Secretary of State for Transport ever?

[bringbackcrouc]

Is he the worst? Has he just been unfortunate? Who are the other contenders for this illustrious title?

JC

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Nicholas Ridley (1983-86), Stephen Byers (2001-02).

 

[furnessvale]

David Howell who promoted the Serpell Report but sexed up the document so much that even Maggie Thatcher couldn't stomach it!

 

[Carlisle]

David Howell who promoted the Serpell Report but sexed up the document so much that even Maggie Thatcher couldn't stomach it!

Exactly, it’s surprising how some people think unions not quite getting everything their own way nowadays makes the person with overall responsibility an absolute villain, whilst completely failing to appreciate a few years previously, cuts, closures and redundancies were either very much the norm or never appeared too far away.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

None of them are experts on transport, the odd one has an interest in the subject but most don't. This one at least admitted as much, not much more to debate is there.

 

[bringbackcrouc]

I though Grayling asked for transport after being the May’s campaign manager.

 

[Ianno87]

David Howell who promoted the Serpell Report but sexed up the document so much that even Maggie Thatcher couldn't stomach it!

Perhaps actually a genuis for doing so and making it unpalatable?

 

[furnessvale]

Perhaps actually a genuis for doing so and making it unpalatable?

Some genius. He got himself sacked for his trouble!

 

[DarloRich]

None of them are experts on transport, the odd one has an interest in the subject but most don't. This one at least admitted as much, not much more to debate is there.

The fact they are not "transport experts" means nothing.

 

[pdeaves]

Is he the worst? Has he just been unfortunate? Who are the other contenders for this illustrious title?

Whatever you think of Grayling, I am sure he can spell 'Transport'.

 

[yorksrob]

Earnest Marples and Tom Fraser win easily.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I though Grayling asked for transport after being the May’s campaign manager.

He's been in position longer than "Thatcher in the Rye" hasn't he? Thought he was a Cameron appointment...

 

[Mag_seven]

I must confess I can't actually think of a good one!

 

[Typhoon]

The fact they are not "transport experts" means nothing.

Perhaps, but what I think is important is not only are many not transport experts but as soon as they have got to grips with the brief, they are moved on so any knowledge they have built up is lost. This can lead to rudderless leadership.

Taking two years as a reasonable apprenticeship in the role, the following have not lasted that length (since 1979):-
Justine Greening, Philip Hammond, Lord Adonis, Geoff Hoon, Ruth Kelly, Douglas Alexander, John Spellar*, Lord MacDonald*, Helen Liddell*, John Reid*, Gavin Strang*, Sir George Young, Brian Mawhinney, Malcolm Rifkind, Cecil Parkinson, John Moore, Tom King, David Howell.

Many of these were able ministers and, I believe, could have done a 'good job' but not given the opportunity to do so.

Transport appears to be a staging post for the next level of government - or the dustbin of history.

* - Minister of Transport in a Labour superministry; Stephen Byers, Secretary of State for one of the superministries, did not last a year (the other was John Prescott, who did have some knowledge, of course).

 

[Typhoon]

He's been in position longer than "Thatcher in the Rye" hasn't he? Thought he was a Cameron appointment...

Patrick McLoughlin until July 2016.

It just seems like Mr Grayling has been in place for an eternity.

 

[DarloRich]

Perhaps, but what I think is important is not only are many not transport experts but as soon as they have got to grips with the brief, they are moved on so any knowledge they have built up is lost. This can lead to rudderless leadership.

Taking two years as a reasonable apprenticeship in the role, the following have not lasted that length (since 1979):-
Justine Greening, Philip Hammond, Lord Adonis, Geoff Hoon, Ruth Kelly, Douglas Alexander, John Spellar*, Lord MacDonald*, Helen Liddell*, John Reid*, Gavin Strang*, Sir George Young, Brian Mawhinney, Malcolm Rifkind, Cecil Parkinson, John Moore, Tom King, David Howell.

Many of these were able ministers and, I believe, could have done a 'good job' but not given the opportunity to do so.

Transport appears to be a staging post for the next level of government - or the dustbin of history.

* - Minister of Transport in a Labour superministry; Stephen Byers, Secretary of State for one of the superministries, did not last a year (the other was John Prescott, who did have some knowledge, of course).

It is a non job in government terms and not something to be fought over. It is either a stepping stone up or a stepping stone down. No one in politics sets out to be transport secretary!

As for being moved on - that is typical
A minister is I lost for only about 2 years before being reshuffled.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Patrick McLoughlin until July 2016.

It just seems like Mr Grayling has been in place for an eternity.

That must be it... I'm probably thinking of the "unsackable" Jeremy Hunt, who screwed the NHS for years and was rewarded with a promotion!

 

[36270k]

Barbara Castle signed off many of the Beeching closure recommendations.

 

[Typhoon]

It is a non job in government terms and not something to be fought over.

Difficult to understand really as, unless we can move people and goods around, we are in trouble. I suppose there are too many potential pitfalls (flight delays, traffic jams, rail cancellations/ delays), many down to mother nature.

No one in politics sets out to be transport secretary!

​

Probably not but I do think that Andrew Adonis tackled the role enthusiastically. (Not that I agree with all of his transport policies.)

 

[pdeaves]

Probably not but I do think that Andrew Adonis tackled the role enthusiastically. (Not that I agree with all of his transport policies.)

Yes, he did at least try to do a good job (for whatever value of 'good') rather than just biding time.

 

[superkev]

Transport ministers

Barbara Castle signed off many of the Beeching closure recommendations.

As well as many rail cuts Barbara castle also single handedly wiped out the UK bus industry by introducing the 50% grants on new omo (No conductors) buses which increased demand beyond what Leyland and others couldnt meet so enter Volvo scania etc.
Subsequently the grant was withdrawn so no demand and exit leyland and a few body builders. Doesn't she also impose the I'll fated BMC Leyland merger.

Transport secretaries are usually passing through on there way up like Hammond or down like Grayling.
K

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I must confess I can't actually think of a good one!

Barbara Castle?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Transport ministers

As well as many rail cuts Barbara castle also single handedly wiped out the UK bus industry by introducing the 60% grants on new omo (No conductors) buses which increased demand beyond what Leyland and others couldnt meet so enter Volvo scania etc. Then withdraw the grant so no demand and exit leyland and a few body builders.

The grant was originally 25% increased at the turn of the decade to 50%. Rather than destroy the industry in many ways New Bus Grant was it's saviour... many of the operating companies were already in serious trouble and had to reduce costs asap... the easiest way, and the biggest cost saving was to convert to OMO so immediately cutting wage costs by 50% {of course by the time the unions had rightly had their say the figure was nearer 25-35%}. The problem the companies had was that they were in so much financial trouble that they couldn't afford to buy the kit to do the conversions... hence the grant.

The fact that Leyland couldn't keep up with demand had nothing to do with increased demand... in fact, despite popular belief there was no real significant increase in the number of buses produced each year. No Leyland's problems were caused, like the rest of the automotive industry in the 1970's by strike action due to the abysmally poor labour relations...

As to the contention that Barbara Castle pulled the rug by withdrawing the grant is just preposterous... the New Bus Grant was withdrawn by the Thatcher Government... somehow I don't think Ms Castle, being a true old Labour left winger would even countenance sitting in a Thatcher government... to her it would've been akin to selling her soul to the Devil!

 

[Typhoon]

The grant was originally 25% increased at the turn of the decade to 50%. Rather than destroy the industry in many ways New Bus Grant was it's saviour... many of the operating companies were already in serious trouble and had to reduce costs asap... the easiest way, and the biggest cost saving was to convert to OMO so immediately cutting wage costs by 50% {of course by the time the unions had rightly had their say the figure was nearer 25-35%}. The problem the companies had was that they were in so much financial trouble that they couldn't afford to buy the kit to do the conversions... hence the grant.

I can't say that I have a full grasp of the situation but my understanding was that operators had failed to adapt to the increase in car ownership and declining bus usage to which their sole response was to raise fares, resulting in fewer passengers. So by the end of the sixties we still had predominantly traditional two-man* double deckers (and even single deckers) carrying handfuls of passengers around in many areas. Thanks to the spurt in bus building after the war, operators had a surfeit of perfectly usable vehicles often on little-used routes, which many seemed to be reluctant to replace, and indeed re-ordered the same models right up to the late 80's. The New Bus Grant was an attempt to offer a solution to the problem. Was it the most effective solution? I don't have that knowledge, but I wonder what would have happened without it.

* - or occasionally one man and one woman (the 'clippie')

 

[Typhoon]

Transport secretaries are usually passing through on there way up like Hammond or down like Grayling.

I wouldn't bank on Grayling being on the way down. He has two great assets: he has always been a committed 'leaver', and he has been scrupulously loyal. In, say, twelve months time whoever is Prime Minister will be looking for loyalty amongst their ministers and may well prize it higher (much higher?) than ability.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I wouldn't bank on Grayling being on the way down. He has two great assets: he has always been a committed 'leaver', and he has been scrupulously loyal. In, say, twelve months time whoever is Prime Minister will be looking for loyalty amongst their ministers and may well prize it higher (much higher?) than ability.

Seeing as though he's a committed leaver AND the Transport Secretary can't we get him to drive a coach and horses through the EU's objections to us leaving?

 

[Typhoon]

Seeing as though he's a committed leaver AND the Transport Secretary can't we get him to drive a coach and horses through the EU's objections to us leaving?

I thought that the point of this thread was to doubt his competence?? (Is Grayling the worst Secretary of State for Transport ever?)

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I thought that the point of this thread was to doubt his competence?? (Is Grayling the worst Secretary of State for Transport ever?)

lol well seeing as though he hasn't managed to muster up a coach and horses yet despite being the Transport Secretary......

 

[superkev]

I can't say that I have a full grasp of the situation but my understanding was that operators had failed to adapt to the increase in car ownership and declining bus usage to which their sole response was to raise fares, resulting in fewer passengers. So by the end of the sixties we still had predominantly traditional two-man* double deckers (and even single deckers) carrying handfuls of passengers around in many areas. Thanks to the spurt in bus building after the war, operators had a surfeit of perfectly usable vehicles often on little-used routes, which many seemed to be reluctant to replace, and indeed re-ordered the same models right up to the late 80's. The New Bus Grant was an attempt to offer a solution to the problem. Was it the most effective solution? I don't have that knowledge, but I wonder what would have happened without it.

* - or occasionally one man and one woman (the 'clippie')

I wonder what the reaction of the current rail unions would be if a Labour minister introduced a grant for new trains that where only suitable for one person operation.
Wasnt it Castle who after Leyland and the then nationalised bus company invested a huge amout of money in the Workington leyland national factory on the basis that only single deckers could have no conductors. The factory became unviable when the rules were relaxed and everyone bought deckers often foreign.
K

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I wonder what the reaction of the current rail unions would be if a Labour minister introduced a grant for new trains that where only suitable for one person operation.
Wasnt it Castle who after Leyland and the then nationalised bus company invested a huge amout of money in the Workington leyland national factory on the basis that only single deckers could have no conductors. The factory became unviable when the rules were relaxed and everyone bought deckers often foreign.
K

Actually, One person operated Double Deckers were legalised in 1966, Bus Grant was introduced with the Transport act 1968 and The Leyland National went into volume production 1971-1972.

To say that Barbara Castle was responsible for the downfall of Leyland is absolute nonsense.... Leyland's problems started because a)it misread what the market wanted and would want and b) then tried to dictate what it's customers could have... eg most customers of the Bristol RE wanted to continue buying them, but because Leyland {with it's NBC} partner had spent so much money designing the National the RE was withdrawn from sale... Leyland didn't learn it's lesson that customers didn't want integral vehicles {at that time} and went on to waste most of the 70's designing the Titan... only when their customers went to other suppliers {invariably British} did Leyland hurriedly redesign the Titan to enable it to take outside bodywork and therefore birthing the Olympian.

Where you get the idea that most or even many customers went to foreign suppliers for their buses I don't know...apart from Leyland's models the main DD's during the 70's were the MCW Metrobus and Dennis Dominator {both British} and the Ailsa B55 which was Scottish- though admittedly with Volvo backing... it wasn't until the early 80's that Volvo took over the Ailsa completely. As for single decks, the main alternatives to the National once Leyland had withdrawn all other citybus layout single deckers were the Leopard and Reliance... both Leyland products.