Is Heathrow Express a good use of resources?

[HSTEd]

But yeah, what's to stop the express paths bring used to extend four more crossrail trains from Paddington, non stop to the airport?
Whilst you lose the interior specialisation you provide a fast single seat journey from the Docklands to the Airport

 

[Ianno87]

But yeah, what's to stop the express paths bring used to extend four more crossrail trains from Paddington, non stop to the airport?
Whilst you lose the interior specialisation you provide a fast single seat journey from the Docklands to the Airport

Flat crossing moves at Portobello/Ladbroke Grove, only 90mph Class 345s and horresdous cross pollution of performance issues between GWML and Crossrail. An another constraint on the Crossrail timetable.

 

[swt_passenger]

I firmly believe that whenever future use of the 4 paths used by Hex comes up for discussion, after 2023 (IIRC), they need to go to the GW mainline operator, whether that is for through trains across Heathrow towards any future Southern or Western access, or if a better BCR for additional direct services along the mainline towards Reading and beyond.
Whatever happens they shouldn't involve Crossrail being pathed from reliefs to mains and vice versa.

 

[island]

Over 60s already have to pay on some services (e.g. National Rail before 9.30 am) and so these Oyster cards can have balances. Presumably they'd use the same system (touching in and out at interchanges).

That’s incorrect.

 

[InFoTan]

That’s incorrect.

Sorry, I got that wrong.

 

[Mikey C]

How long is a piece of string? It depends where you want to get to, and at what time of the day.

Paddington's big advantage is that it has a taxi rank. Tottenham Court Road station has one near the Dominion Theatre but you have to find your way to it over the road. I'm not sure whether Bond Street and Farringdon have taxi ranks near the station entrances so you might have to hail a cruising cab. Anyway for anywhere near Bond Street you might as well take a taxi from Paddington.
Liverpool Street has a taxi rank.

It's not as convenient as it used to be though, as the new rank is a lot further to walk than the old one. And going in other direction, I could get a taxi from my central London hotel or office to the nearest Crossrail station, instead of Paddington.

 

[richieb1971]

The problem I have with HEX is that its a specialist train for luggage carrying passengers that want to get directly to the airport. When in fact its priced for business people only.

Stansted and Gatwick have rail links that work on normal ticketing and on normal routes and whilst this doesn't always allow for luggage its better than HEX when you consider the prices. The only real viable solution is the Piccadilly line for myself. If your flight lands at 07:45 in the morning of leaves at 20:00 at night your going to be on the tube at the worst possible times. I've had 1 or 2 encounters will commuters tripping over our luggage trying to get onto the tube train. Its not right.

I think the HEX is priced to push people to use different airports rather than to attract custom to Heathrow.

When Crossrail/EWR is finished I hope there are more suitable options available for people coming from the North. Because Hex is really really over priced and anyone from the north of London really wants a direct train rather than having to change somewhere in London.

Edit - In another thread it was stated that the rail link was paid for by the airport and the cost reflects a toll for repayment of the rail link itself. Then that same person stated it should be lobbied that cars pay this toll so more people use the train instead, therefore bringing down the cost of a Hex ticket. And I believe that is the right way forward..

 

[gwr4090]

Some years ago the GW route utilisation strategy suggested that when the Heathrow Western Access is available there should be a new fast service from Paddington via Heathrow to Slough, Reading and probably Basingstoke. Heathrow Express has already said it will bid to run this. It may want to keep the existing paths on the mains as far as Airport Jn. On the other hand I note that British Airways is already campaigning for Heathrow Airport Ltd to give up running trains and concentrate its resources on running the airport better !

 

[matt_world2004]

I think one thing that should happen is that as a condition of heathrow being allowed to expand that heathrow rail should be in zone 6. This will reduce traffic flow to the airport and improve its transport accessibility score.

 

[Kite159]

I think one thing that should happen is that as a condition of heathrow being allowed to expand that heathrow rail should be in zone 6. This will reduce traffic flow to the airport and improve its transport accessibility score.

Could be easy enough to do with installing a new gateline at Paddington for the HEX platforms and charging a premium for using the Express, similar setup like Victoria.

Heathrow rail can be in zone 6, which could lessen the load on the Piccadilly line as well

 

[Mikey C]

Heathrow airport has massive problems meeting air quality standards in its vicinity, and one of the conditions for approving expansion (e.g. the 3rd runway and another terminal) is getting more people to use public transport to get to the airport. Not charging a premium to use HEX or for other trains to access the tunnel between the airport and airport junction would be a good start...

 

[InFoTan]

The only real viable solution is the Piccadilly line for myself. If your flight lands at 07:45 in the morning of leaves at 20:00 at night your going to be on the tube at the worst possible times. I've had 1 or 2 encounters will commuters tripping over our luggage trying to get onto the tube train. Its not right.

I agree. I have taken the Piccadilly line to the airport in the afternoon and even then it was horribly crowded. Crossrail should help reduce this problem, but not if fares are too high - and Mikey C makes a good suggestion for solving this problem.

 

[Tetchytyke]

When in fact its priced for business people only

Is it? Really?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you're spending a lot of money on your holiday from Heathrow, you're not going to fret about an extra thirty quid. And you generally will be spending a lot of money on your holiday from Heathrow.

 

[InFoTan]

Well, perhaps it's better to say that it's a premium priced service, and some people willingly pay for it whether travelling on business or for leisure.

As Richard H. Thaler might say, Econs would totally separate the cost of the flight from the cost of transportation to/from the airport (and purchases at Duty Free shops), whereas Humans do tend to conflate them. Hence Heathrow Airport heavily promoting HEx as a fast and convenient service for all Humans.

 

[SaveECRewards]

Heathrow airport has massive problems meeting air quality standards in its vicinity, and one of the conditions for approving expansion (e.g. the 3rd runway and another terminal) is getting more people to use public transport to get to the airport. Not charging a premium to use HEX or for other trains to access the tunnel between the airport and airport junction would be a good start...

Coming from Central London public transport will already be cheaper and more convenient than driving (remember airport parking is generally expensive). Most people who drive to the airport will not be coming from London and therefore will not find the Express particularly handy.

The main issue with public transport access is from people who live in the rest of the UK, even directly to the west (e.g Windsor) public transport to the airport isn't ideal (and Slough/Windsor has a dedicated bus service, further out it gets even harder).

 

[coppercapped]

Coming from Central London public transport will already be cheaper and more convenient than driving (remember airport parking is generally expensive). Most people who drive to the airport will not be coming from London and therefore will not find the Express particularly handy.

The main issue with public transport access is from people who live in the rest of the UK, even directly to the west (e.g Windsor) public transport to the airport isn't ideal (and Slough/Windsor has a dedicated bus service, further out it gets even harder).

In addition to the airport parking fees, if driving in, through or from Central London car drivers have to pay the Congestion Charge of £11.50.

To your second point - this is why extending rail services west of the airport towards Woking, Guildford and Basingstoke makes a lot of sense. Using the HEx paths between Paddington and Terminal 5 would seem a good way to address these markets.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It's not as convenient as it used to be though, as the new rank is a lot further to walk than the old one. And going in other direction, I could get a taxi from my central London hotel or office to the nearest Crossrail station, instead of Paddington.

Those in the know go up the slope off the lawn to the front of the Hotel. There is usually a queue of taxis there waiting for punters, unless the Police have moved them on.

 

[coppercapped]

Sssh! You don't want everybody to know...

 

[The Ham]

In addition to the airport parking fees, if driving in, through or from Central London car drivers have to pay the Congestion Charge of £11.50.

To your second point - this is why extending rail services west of the airport towards Woking, Guildford and Basingstoke makes a lot of sense. Using the HEx paths between Paddington and Terminal 5 would seem a good way to address these markets.

Woking and Guildford would be served by a Southern Approach, whilst Basingstoke would initially be served by the Western Approach (although it would also be served by services using the Southern Approach).

 

[coppercapped]

Woking and Guildford would be served by a Southern Approach, whilst Basingstoke would initially be served by the Western Approach (although it would also be served by services using the Southern Approach).

As I understand it, both these routes are still being discussed; nothing is yet firm or decided although preliminary planning for the necessary permissions is underway. The articles I have read on the southern approach suggest that the Virginia Water - Byfleet route could serve all three of Woking, Guildford and Basingstoke. Of these three towns, the western approach from the GWML could only serve Basingstoke.
Which towns are served and in which order the services start will only be definite after it has been decided whether either or both these routes should be built and in what sequence.

In any event the four HEx paths east from Heathrow will be very useful for these services.

 

[The Ham]

As I understand it, both these routes are still being discussed; nothing is yet firm or decided although preliminary planning for the necessary permissions is underway. The articles I have read on the southern approach suggest that the Virginia Water - Byfleet route could serve all three of Woking, Guildford and Basingstoke. Of these three towns, the western approach from the GWML could only serve Basingstoke.
Which towns are served and in which order the services start will only be definite after it has been decided whether either or both these routes should be built and in what sequence.

In any event the four HEx paths east from Heathrow will be very useful for these services.

I hadn't realised that the Western Approach had been pushed back so much.

Your last point about the HEX paths being useful after either/both are built is something that I had already highlighted and is overlooked by those who think that the HEX paths could be more usefully used for other services.

 

[paulravuslante]

Could be easy enough to do with installing a new gateline at Paddington for the HEX platforms and charging a premium for using the Express, similar setup like Victoria.

Heathrow rail can be in zone 6, which could lessen the load on the Piccadilly line as well

This will be happening once issues of where to put a gateline at the bottom of the stairs halfway along the platform.

 

[JonathanH]

I firmly believe that whenever future use of the 4 paths used by Hex comes up for discussion, after 2023 (IIRC), they need to go to the GW mainline operator, whether that is for through trains across Heathrow towards any future Southern or Western access, or if a better BCR for additional direct services along the mainline towards Reading and beyond.
Whatever happens they shouldn't involve Crossrail being pathed from reliefs to mains and vice versa.

It only really works if the detour via Heathrow off the GWML is the same time as the frequency of services from Paddington to Heathrow in the first place.

I guess it would also mean trains can't stop on the fast line at any point between Paddington and Reading (unless the junction is West of Slough of course) as it is the operation of Heathrow Express which currently makes Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough stops (or flat crossing moves) possible.

 

[stevekp]

I would certainly be glad to see the back of Heathrow Express. Once crossrail is ready, as far as I can see there will be no real point to it. I believe Heathrow Connect will be discontinued as soon as crossrail opens, and I suspect Heathrow Express will follow suit eventually.

I imagine most people would rather use the nice shiny new service, rather than the overpriced HEx, even if it is a direct service and saves a handful of minutes. So probably HEx will be discontinued on commercial grounds. At least it will free up two platforms at Paddington for more services to the South West.

Of course, what we really need is the western access link to Heathrow to be built. I currently have to drive (from Bristol) and use one of the airport parking services, which is ridiculous when you consider the GWML runs almost next to Heathrow. I would rather get the train if possible.

I get the impression that politicians for decades have been under the impression that people outside London don't really need access to airports!

 

[matt_world2004]

I would certainly be glad to see the back of Heathrow Express. Once crossrail is ready, as far as I can see there will be no real point to it. I believe Heathrow Connect will be discontinued as soon as crossrail opens, and I suspect Heathrow Express will follow suit eventually.

I imagine most people would rather use the nice shiny new service, rather than the overpriced HEx, even if it is a direct service and saves a handful of minutes. So probably HEx will be discontinued on commercial grounds. At least it will free up two platforms at Paddington for more services to the South West.

Of course, what we really need is the western access link to Heathrow to be built. I currently have to drive (from Bristol) and use one of the airport parking services, which is ridiculous when you consider the GWML runs almost next to Heathrow. I would rather get the train if possible.

I get the impression that politicians for decades have been under the impression that people outside London don't really need access to airports!

TfL Rail will replace the Heathrow connect on the 20th May that's without doubt. Even if Heathrow was in zone 6 the 33% full loadings on the hex do not justify 10tph (4 hex, 6 crossrail) to Heathrow airport. Especially when the gwml between Reading to Paddington is one of the busiest lines in the country

 

[Mintona]

I would certainly be glad to see the back of Heathrow Express. Once crossrail is ready, as far as I can see there will be no real point to it. I believe Heathrow Connect will be discontinued as soon as crossrail opens, and I suspect Heathrow Express will follow suit eventually.

I imagine most people would rather use the nice shiny new service, rather than the overpriced HEx, even if it is a direct service and saves a handful of minutes. So probably HEx will be discontinued on commercial grounds. At least it will free up two platforms at Paddington for more services to the South West.

Of course, what we really need is the western access link to Heathrow to be built. I currently have to drive (from Bristol) and use one of the airport parking services, which is ridiculous when you consider the GWML runs almost next to Heathrow. I would rather get the train if possible.

I get the impression that politicians for decades have been under the impression that people outside London don't really need access to airports!

I highly doubt most people will prefer to use an already crowded longitudinal seated train with no toilets when travelling from Paddington to Heathrow. And removing the Heathrow Express doesn’t provide any more paths between London and Reading, so a couple of extra platforms for south west services isn’t particularly useful.

In addition, platforms 6 & 7 at Paddington are at a different height to the others, to provide step free access between the bespoke 332 units and the platforms. They’ll need rebuilding to accommodate other trains. Not cheap especially considering there won’t be a huge amount of benefit from doing it.

Also, overpriced is subjective. Many many people have already stated they don’t mind paying a bit extra for the luxury of the Heathrow Express if they’re already dropping thousands on a holiday.

 

[ainsworth74]

I highly doubt most people will prefer to use an already crowded longitudinal seated train with no toilets when travelling from Paddington to Heathrow.

What kind of loadings does the Piccadilly Line get? That's a crowded longitudinally seated train with no toilets...

 

[matt_world2004]

What kind of loadings does the Piccadilly Line get? That's a crowded longitudinally seated train with no toilets...

7.73 million entries and exits last year for terminal 2 and 3 station London underground , 2.24 million for LUL terminal 4 , 4.45 million for LUL terminal 5 . HEx do not supply per station or annual entry and exit figures, but according to HEX 100 million people have bored a train over the life of Heathrow Express, which roughly works out at 5 million per year entry and exits divided between three stations ,

I would guess most of those entries and exits were inter terminal transfers too which is more complicated on the tube

 

[SaveECRewards]

7.73 million entries and exits last year for terminal 2 and 3 station London underground , 2.24 million for LUL terminal 4 , 4.45 million for LUL terminal 5 . HEx do not supply per station or annual entry and exit figures, but according to HEX 100 million people have bored a train over the life of Heathrow Express, which roughly works out at 5 million per year entry and exits divided between three stations ,

I would guess most of those entries and exits were inter terminal transfers too which is more complicated on the tube

I would have thought the 100 million would have been paying passengers (i.e. those going to or from London), the inter terminal transfers are free and so there's no easy way to count them.

 

[matt_world2004]

I would have thought the 100 million would have been paying passengers (i.e. those going to or from London), the inter terminal transfers are free and so there's no easy way to count them.

I would hazard a guess that HAL will do loading surveys to estimate the amount of travel between terminals and extrapolate the data from that, National rail operators do not report staff, police or ticketless travel when recording station usage statistics. TfL do so I do not know what method HEX uses.. The national rail station usage data makes it quite clear they do not collect passenger usage data for services operated by HEX or Eurostar