Is it fair that Advance tickets have no value when the train is missed?

Do TOCs sell advance fares in preference to walk-on fares even if the price difference is minimal?

 

Just to play devils advocate, Yorkie, the T&C are that when the time on the ticket is passed, the ticket is useless except in certain circumstances. That information is available, and anybody buying that ticket is aware (or signs to say they are aware of) the T&C.

If they want flexibility, then they should buy a flexible ticket. If the flexible ticket is not much more, then they should buy it first off.

The biggest offenders in cases where there is not much difference between advance and flexible tickets are firms who buy them for employees, and I usually tell them to take it up with the agents / pa/ office secretary, and tell them next time to pay the extra £5 or whatever. Often they will have bought an Advance for a peak-time train, and the passenger will be on a cheaper off-peak train.

 

. . . and they PROMOTE the Advance fares quite vigourously, so that folks now have it drummed into them from the press, billboards, sides of buses etc that a 300 mile journey on EC is £15 (or whatever it is whereever you are), so that if they do find they are asked to pay for an Anytime in addition, then they can be quite truly shocked at the price!

(We are straying slightly from the topic, but I'm as responsible as anyone else for that!).
I would repeat my reply to Zoe, above, and add that the vigour with which Advance prices are promoted to the public at large (without the Large Writing in Red Ink and Red Hand pointing to it to quote Lord Denning on 'smallprint') does leave the ordinary person with the impression that the lowest tier of Advance prices are THE price.
I would take some persuasion to be assured that the limitations of Advance prices are adequately advised, and perhaps more to the point, I am nowhere near convinced that the ordinary person exposed several times a day to ads for £15 or so long distance fares has any clue what the cost would be of travelling on the earlier or later service.

 

You could make an advance ticket valid for up to 1 or 2 hours, with a flat-rate surcharge of £10 or £20 perhaps. Thus, the ticket isn't totally useless but you do pay more, so it doesn't make it worthwhile just buying the cheapest advance ticket and then travelling whenever you want.

I am sure ATOC could come up with something that strikes a balance. Yes, in some cases you might just find it worthwhile getting an advance and knowing you'll pay the extra surcharge to travel when you want (within the fairly limited window) but most of the time you won't want to pay more as you got the advance ticket to save money, not play the system.

Alternatively, why not have offer an advance with an optional 'insurance' option for say £1.50 or £2 on top, to allow you to travel on a later train (I'd personally not offer an earlier one).

This would then be marked on the ticket, and net the TOC a nice bit of voluntary extra revenue that nobody would moan about. In fact, it would make it even easier to punish those with a 'normal' ticket as they'd have implicitly turned down the insurance, and could not possibly say they didn't know about the strict rules.

Bear in mind, I am suggesting something that would require ATOC to change the system. Until it changes, I would expect the T&Cs to be enforced and for people to understand what is clearly marked on the ticket regarding when you can travel. Any discretion would be based purely on explaining circumstances that caused a delay, and thus no excuse would be valid for travelling early (as that WOULD be open to abuse). Airport train tickets excepted, which are effectively offering the above insurance idea within the price.

 

If you start allowing flexibility with advance fares though the TOC will lose revenue and the fares would have to be a bit more expensive. The reason the fares are as cheap as they are is that there is no flexibility.

 

Which I am perfectly happy with (my point on that issue was that I believe some residual value to an unused Advance towards its replacement Anytime would not be unreasonable, and, despite the protestions of others, would NOT disrupt yield management, and would NOT become so attractive 'that everyone would buy Advances').

But I have to repeat, the degree to which the restrictions, or more to the point, the cost of varying them, is adequately advertised doesn't help passenger or TOC on this subject. To try to be even clearer about this, there is a disproportionate offer to the passenger between the ease in just jumping on the train before or after their booked service costing the widely advertised £15or£20, and the unnannounced and poorly advertised additional cost of replacing their Advance with an Anytime; in my case its 30mins either side and a whopping £143 for that variation to a £40 ticket.

 

What is all this about fair or unfair. Life isn't fair. Getting caught speeding isn't fair, Man Citeh getting taken over by a rich sheik isn't fair, me not being born into a rich family isn't fair.
You buy the cheap ticket knowing the Ts and Cs. If you don't like them then don't buy the ticket. If you can't trust yourself to get to the station in time to catch the train via suicidal people on the tube or missing buses or road accidents then don't buy the ticket.
Yes things go wrong and if the railway is at fault you will be OK. If it isn't then why should the railway be held responsible.
Some people just want the cheap tickets but want flexibility. Sorry you can't have both

All the above is my own personal opinion !! One formed by listening to too many crazy excuses as to why a particular train can't be caught. And selling AP tickets to people who blatantly have no intention of catching that train but blagging it on another

 

Shouldn't the real question here be why these TOCs are offering advance fares at minimul difference to the walk-on fare?

 

OK cheaper. Better ?
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But once again I point to the fact that you know the Ts and Cs before you buy the ticket. If you don't want to comply with them then don't buy the ticket

 

That would depend on every train having a ticket inspector/vendor who patrols the length of the train between every stop. Very labour intensive to avoid abuse and chance-taking. Why wouldn't I buy the £13 10.30 AP ticket when I'd actually rather travel on the 11.15 but that only has £23 tickets available?

 

Why do so many people apparently believe this line ?

 

Minimal is 1p difference (because money is in discrete 1p quanta). In the example you quoted there is a £19 difference which I would hardly call minimal.

It is up the individual to ask for the correct fare, if an advance seems high then ask how much the walk-up is before purchasing. The £223 is unfair but it's not wrong and the customer should have been well aware of this when purchasing the advance tickets

 

It's quite simple. How do you think the TOCs would be able to afford to offer these fares if they were flexible.

 

Why shouldn't they?

 

If the fare is over 100 then £19 is less than 20% of the fare. £19 isn't going to make much difference to some of the very expensive fares. You say the onus is on the customer to ask before they purchase the ticket but how many people would know all the different fares?

 

Because it isn't true.

 

So explain how the TOCs could afford to offer flexible tickets at advance fare prices then. The simple answer is they can't

 

Yep I get it now (I think). I must have missed the bit about the Admin fee.

It's all starting to get rather confusing lol. Think I'd better re-read this thread from the beginning tomorrow.

 

Indeed it is but £19 is still £19 whether it's the difference between £97 and £116, £2 and £21 or £31452 and £31471 (I hope fares never get that high!)

I can understand that someone would be more willing to pay for a walk up because the extra £19 represents less than a 20% difference in price.

What I'm trying to say is that if you know you're going to get that train, be willing to be bound by it's T&Cs and get there in good time then why not save the £19 and spend it elsewhere? If not, get the walk up. IMO it's up the potential customer to decide whether to buy the advance and save £19 sacrificing flexibility, buy the walk up and get flexibility at the cost of £19 or decide not to travel at all and not the TOCs responsibility to knock down the price based solely on the reason it's too close
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If it isn't true it should be easy to explain why it's not true.

My apologies, I thought it was common knowledge (perhaps it's just the good folks on this forum being so wise ) but after a cursory check of Virgin's website it doesn't clearly state than an anytime single must be bought in the case of getting the wrong train.