Is it fair that Advance tickets have no value when the train is missed?

[DaveNewcastle]

What is all this about fair or unfair.

. . . .

You buy the cheap ticket knowing the Ts and Cs. If you don't like them then don't buy the ticket. If you can't trust yourself to get to the station in time to catch the train via suicidal people on the tube or missing buses or road accidents then don't buy the ticket.
Yes things go wrong and if the railway is at fault you will be OK. If it isn't then why should the railway be held responsible.
Some people just want the cheap tickets but want flexibility. Sorry you can't have both . . . .

Oh dear!
I'm so sorry XCDriver if we've expressed ourselves badly.

You see, I have no doubt about the T&Cs of an Advance. But I do buy a lot of them (as well as Off-peaks, Anytimes etc.). But living in the world that I do, I can decide that I'd like to change my plans and (as I think I have made clear in all my posts on this thread), fully expect to resolve those changes of plans or circumstances by buying an Anytime.
My Anytime for the journey home is £143 and I'll pay it.
No excuses, no complicated blame, no burden on the guard or the TOC.
That is NOT the point under question here.

So, where has all this 'can't trust myself to get to the station on time' stuff come from? I quite clearly illustrated the question with an example (quite common) in which I am over 30mins early for my journey home, and then seeing a colleague heading for an earlier service, we want to travel together. Not planned, but not trying to exploit anything that seems to be threatening your view. What has the 'sorry you can't have it both ways' got to do with anything I've posted?
Eh?

I am asking in a very polite and informed manner, that if I would like to to travel back home with that colleague who, like me, has an Advance on EC but on services 30 mins appart, then while I accept that it will cost one of us £143 to change our ticket (reluctantly but understanding the T&Cs), what I am asking, and what the thread's title makes quite clear, is: may I use some of the residual value of my unwanted £40 Advance when now buying a second Anytime ticket for that same journey home costing £143, only 30 mins earlier or later?
That's all I'm asking.

So Please, there's no need for this 'can't get to the station on time' or 'don't understand the condidtions attached'. You have brought all that into this thread yourself - its not in the question; it doesn't belong in the answer.

 

[sheff1]

So explain how the TOCs could afford to offer flexible tickets at advance fare prices then. The simple answer is they can't

Interesting that you are now refering to something different to the statement I said wasn't true ! Your original statement was The reason the fares are as cheap as they are is that there is no flexibility

A simple example shows that for some journeys the cheapest fares are the most flexible. Take Sheffield to Burton on Trent travelling between 1030 & 1200 on Fri 20th May.

Cheapest walk on fare (as per National Rail Enquiries) £8.90 - valid on any train departing after 0900. This is also a return fare should you wish to come back the same day

Advance single fares offered on Cross Country site, all limited to one specific time:

Dep 1054 - £17.50
Dep 1127 - £11.50
Dep 1154 - £14.50

The dearest fare above is almost twice the cheapest walk on fare. On occasions I have even seen Advance fares as high as £22 on this journey, although you can also, at times, get an Advance for £6.50.

 

[Zoe]

Interesting that you are now refering to something different to the statement I said wasn't true ! Your original statement was The reason the fares are as cheap as they are is that there is no flexibility

That is why they are so cheap though. Your example is also more complicated as it is a regional journey with a Day Return/Single fares available and a I really don't know why the Advance fares for this journey are on offer at all. You can get some absolute rock bottom fares for long distance intercity journeys and the reason they are so cheap is that they are so restricted.

 

[yorkie]

That is why they are so cheap though. Your example is also more complicated as it is a regional journey with a Day Return/Single fares available and a I really don't know why the Advance fares for this journey are on offer at all. You can get some absolute rock bottom fares for long distance intercity journeys and the reason they are so cheap is that they are so restricted.

okay, so your argument only works with long distance flows where the original AP fares are 'rock bottom'? But if you're talking about my York-London £10 fares (which I have a lot for this Summer!) which I agree are rock bottom, then it actually makes no difference under the '£10 admin fee + excess' system or your system of charging for a new ticket!

Can you look at the £97 example now please?

 

[sheff1]

Your example is also more complicated as it is a regional journey with a Day Return/Single fares available.

I thought it was straightforward, but there you go..

I really don't know why the Advance fares for this journey are on offer at all.

Quite, my view exactly.

You can get some absolute rock bottom fares for long distance intercity journeys and the reason they are so cheap is that they are so restricted.

I agree, and I often purchase them. My point is that it is not a universal given that the cheaper fares are the most restricted although very often that is, indeed, the case.

 

[AeroSpace]

I am asking in a very polite and informed manner, that if I would like to to travel back home with that colleague who, like me, has an Advance on EC but on services 30 mins appart, then while I accept that it will cost one of us £143 to change our ticket (reluctantly but understanding the T&Cs), what I am asking, and what the thread's title makes quite clear, is: may I use some of the residual value of my unwanted £40 Advance when now buying a second Anytime ticket for that same journey home costing £143, only 30 mins earlier or later?
That's all I'm asking.

Before the time of departure of the unwanted ticket:

You can amend your Advance to any ticket, including Anytime tickets, paying only the fare difference + £10. So yes, you can use 75% of the residual value of the Advance ticket.

After the time of departure of the unwanted ticket:

The Advance ticket no longer has any value, since you have 'missed the first train on which you are booked'. So no, you can't use the Advance ticket to offset the cost of the new ticket.
(this latter situation is what I was talking about when I mentioned banknotes earlier.)

That all seems fair to me.

 

[YorkshireRider]

DaveNewcastle, to take your example your advance ticket is still worth £30 (£40-admin fee) as you could go to the ticket office and change your ticket before your 1900 service has left, so not sure what your point is? it does still have some value! If you miss your booked train through late running of a connecting train or underground problems for that matter this can be checked by guards and ticket office staff and a free excess issued. Advance ticket allocation in the main works well and is based on average passenger loadings, to start giving an hour flexibility is a nonsense and could lead to more overloading on certain services. It works fine for 99% of passengers, and provides good value on the early allocations.

 

[jon0844]

If you start allowing flexibility with advance fares though the TOC will lose revenue and the fares would have to be a bit more expensive. The reason the fares are as cheap as they are is that there is no flexibility.

How will they lose revenue? You pay MORE money to them, and have now lost your seat reservation too. My suggestion is that you pay more, but a fixed and more manageable sum, or you get everyone to voluntarily pay extra 'just in case' to effectively up the ticket price without actually increasing it (rather like Ryanair bolting something on, which doesn't count as part of the advertised price).

Only if it's a service so crowded that you going on a later service means someone misses their train and goes to get a refund, does the TOC lose money.

Nothing has to change, but there's nothing to stop the industry wanting to do so in order to make the railway more attractive and fair. I don't think that a fixed £10 or £20 fee, or whatever, would be a big issue as long as it was stated at the time of buying the ticket. It would never be as flexible as an anytime ticket as you would only have a set time where the fixed surcharge would be offered. Go beyond that and it would be the normal full-price fare as sold now, unless you can prove there was a delay.

Sadly, a meeting that finishes early is a totally different story. I don't see being early as worthy of allowing travel, as it can't disrupt you in any way (other than you being bored). You would have expected to get home at nn:nn, so you haven't lost anything.

 

[bb21]

I do not wish to barge into your debate, however I will point out the following:

Interesting that you are now refering to something different to the statement I said wasn't true ! Your original statement was The reason the fares are as cheap as they are is that there is no flexibility

A simple example shows that for some journeys the cheapest fares are the most flexible. Take Sheffield to Burton on Trent travelling between 1030 & 1200 on Fri 20th May.

Cheapest walk on fare (as per National Rail Enquiries) £8.90 - valid on any train departing after 0900. This is also a return fare should you wish to come back the same day

Advance single fares offered on Cross Country site, all limited to one specific time:

Dep 1054 - £17.50
Dep 1127 - £11.50
Dep 1154 - £14.50

The dearest fare above is almost twice the cheapest walk on fare. On occasions I have even seen Advance fares as high as £22 on this journey, although you can also, at times, get an Advance for £6.50.

The £8.90 ticket is the Derbyshire Wayfarer and is not a TOC product. Like you said, it is the cheapest ticket for travelling between the two stations mentioned, and allows unlimited travel on both the railway and a large range of buses. Trouble is, if you go to Sheffield station and ask for a single ticket to Burton on Trent, without specifically mentioning this ticket in particular, would they ever suggest the ticket to you? I highly doubt it. Instead they'll more than likely sell you the Off-Peak Single for £22.10. This in a way explains why there are Advance fares for this flow priced at as high as £19. This is purely wrong in my opinion, very much along the same lines as when some TOC's were spotted selling two Advance tickets for a return journey which cost more in total than a walk-on flexible return ticket.

Carry on.

 

[yorkie]

Trouble is, if you go to Sheffield station and ask for a single ticket to Burton on Trent, without specifically mentioning this ticket in particular, would they ever suggest the ticket to you?

I believe they are obliged to offer it, as it is the cheapest ticket.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Some interesting perspectives on what is 'fair' and what is not.

If the Advance was changed to allow a change of time upto two hours after departure of the first train, the number of people who would want to buy it would increase and the the number wanting to buy the Peak fare would decrease as a result (this is not in the interest of the TOC).

Lets assume that the change happens and two people are waiting in a queue for tickets. The first can definately travel on the 1936 or 2036 train to busyville, he is unlikely to make the 1836, but this is the only train with a £90 advance fare available. However, the system now lets him get the £90 fare booked on the 1836 train and pay the excess to the open £110 fare plus an admin fee if he misses it.

The second chap has to travel on the 1836, anything later would mean he can't do what he has to do and he can't get to the station for an earlier train, the £90 fare is perfect for him. Unfortunately the chap in front has bought the last one and he is forced to pay the £110 fare.

Is it fair that the second chap misses out on the advance fare, even though the first chap probably can't make the earlier train?

If you want to say that the current system isn't fair, then you have to admit that any system put in place is unfair to someone.

My second point in this post is more to do with the premise that if you are charged for a new ticket under the current system, somehow you are paying double the fare for a journey.

In theory that sounds really unfair, but it is flawed. If I buy an Apple for 50p from my local supermarket, but before I get to eat it, it falls out of the bag I had from another shop and I can't find it after I realise it has happened. I end up having to go back to the supermarket to buy another apple. How much has that apple cost me? I'll give you a clue, it isn't £1!

The passenger may have paid for two tickets, but it was not for one journey, they paid twice because they paid for two journeys, one they missed, the other they travelled on.

That is the penalty for missing the train, the condition only seems unfair if it doesn't suit. How many contracts could that apply to? Millions I'd say. It's not like the people buying the advance fare are being forced to do so because there is no alternative. There is an alternative, they didn't buy it.

When I offer an Advance fare, I tell the passenger what the difference is to the 'open' ticket so they can make a decision based on the facts. I dare say not every clerk does this, but if the passenger knows the price difference, makes that choice, misses the train and ends up buying a new ticket, then how is it unfair?

Even if the passenger isn't told the difference initially, but are told the conditions and they are not happy with them, they have a chance to find out what the open ticket would cost right there and then, once again they have a choice. Imo, fighting the cause that advances are unfair will only succeed in reducing their numbers.

 

[trainophile]

To further clarify my earlier comment about the proposed new system enabling "taking a chance", what I meant was if I buy the £13 10.30 ticket although I fully intend to travel on the 11.15 train but don't want to pay the £19 for that one, if no inspector on the 11.15 checks my ticket I am £6 up and have still travelled at the time I wanted to.

If a ticket inspector does come by, unlike under the current system I am not breaking any rules, so not subject to whatever penalty or punishment I might expect under the current system, and only have to pay the admin charge plus the difference between the ticket I have and the walk-up fare.

If the route is one where ticket inspectors are thin on the ground, or rely on the cursory glance approach, I would probably get away with it more times than not, thus making up for the odd occasion when I have to pay the extra.

Therefore I think the current system is correct (even though it is not in the passenger's favour) - at least everyone knows where they stand (or sit if they are lucky!).

 

[yorkie]

I won't reply to HHF's points, as I'd only be repeating what I said above

To further clarify my earlier comment about the proposed new system enabling "taking a chance", what I meant was if I buy the £13 10.30 ticket although I fully intend to travel on the 11.15 train but don't want to pay the £19 for that one, if no inspector on the 11.15 checks my ticket I am £6 up and have still travelled at the time I wanted to.

But, by this logic, someone not buying a ticket at all would get away with paying £0.

If a ticket inspector does come by, unlike under the current system I am not breaking any rules, so not subject to whatever penalty or punishment I might expect under the current system, and only have to pay the admin charge plus the difference between the ticket I have and the walk-up fare.

Thus under an admin fee + upgrade system you would only be saving £3 compared to the current system. I think that making you lose out on £10, rather than £13, seems more fair, appropriate and proportionate, while still being significant enough to act as a 'deterrent'.

If the route is one where ticket inspectors are thin on the ground, or rely on the cursory glance approach, I would probably get away with it more times than not, thus making up for the odd occasion when I have to pay the extra.

I would suggest that AP tickets are inappropriate on such routes! (except for the connectional leg of "& connections" tickets, where it doesn't matter, of course!).

Therefore I think the current system is correct (even though it is not in the passenger's favour) - at least everyone knows where they stand (or sit if they are lucky!).

People don't know where they stand, that's ATOC propaganda and we're haggling over £3 in this example, I really don't think losing out on £10 instead of £13 will make people chance buying the wrong ticket! But I do think that it is a little fairer, as £10 seems enough of a 'punishment' to me (it's not really a punishment, but will be perceived that way!).