Is it fair to save money by looking for legitimate anomalies?

[jednick]

I was playing around with ticket prices from Worcester a few months ago, looking for places to visit.

There is one particular station on the rail network which I can get to from Worcester by either changing at Smethwick Galton Bridge or Birmingham New Street. (The journey time is almost identical, to within a couple of minutes, by changing at either station).

An off-peak day return from Worcester to this particular station is approximately 15 to 20% less then the same ticket from Worcester to either Smethwick Galton Bridge or Birmingham New Street.

My first question is - why does this anomaly exist? It's just this one particular station, I'm sure (I tried playing around with prices of tickets to loads of stations and it's just that one.) Could it be that they forgot to raise the price for a few years with just that one station? Or some other reason?

So, I'm probably going to buy a return to this station, change at New Street, cut my journey short there and save £1.50 on my trip to Birmingham. National Rail enquiries says it's a valid route and I know I can break my journey on an off-peak day return, so I'm definitely allowed to do this. But for some reason I feel a bit guilty that I'm doing something wrong, even though I know I'm not. Or, I'm thinking that somebody is going to realise what I'm doing and say I should be paying the higher price like everbody else.

What does everybody think? If anomolies like this exist, is it acceptable to save money in this way?

 

[londonbridge]

Why not? If it exists, it's valid, and it saves you a few bob then you might as well take advantage of it until such time as it's no longer available. Thanks to these forums I found a nice little loophole which I use when visiting my mother for the weekend, based on the increased 2020 prices it will save me £7.60 per visit next year, so why shouldn't I use it?

 

[gray1404]

You do realise that by posting such anomalies on here, it is the fast track way to getting it shut down. In other words, quite a silly action.

 

[yorkie]

If anomolies like this exist, is it acceptable to save money in this way?

It's valid.

You are asking if it's morally acceptable to use a valid ticket to start or finish short, when permitted to do so? It's subjective!

I consider it to be morally acceptable to use any valid ticket, but not everyone will agree with me. I did enquire at a ticket office a few months ago about travelling to Stafford via Manchester at just before 0930. I consider the price set by XC for that journey to be morally unacceptable, but I wouldn't deny that it is legal. The ticket office behaved in a morally acceptable way by offering a combination of tickets without me having to ask. However they did so against the instructions of the rail industry. Some people would say the ticket office behaved immorally by acting in my interests instead of the instructions the rail industry gives its staff, but I would disagree.

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...hat-are-the-implications.170529/#post-3663293 for some interesting discussion; I created this thread after noticing a lot of people referring to anomalies/loopholes.

Another interesting discussion from 10 years ago can be found at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ticketing-anomalies-starting-a-journey-short.28645 ; in this thread a member called 'Old Timer' made some incorrect statements, suggesting starting/finishing short was not allowed if this undercut the fare. However any such rule was abolished well over a decade before that thread was created a decade ago. As you can see from his posts, he was pretty unhappy that people were able to obtain a cheaper fare by starting or finishing short. So there are some people out there who believe it is not morally acceptable to use a ticket for starting/finishing short if it undercuts the fare.

You do realise that by posting such anomalies on here, it is the fast track way to getting it shut down....

It's not always possible for them to be shut down, but you are quite right that many of them can be, and it has happened before.

A good example of that is this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/mirfield-to-leeds-via-sowerby-bridge.115077/ ; @TUC exposed the anomaly before he had the chance to purchase the ticket! Fortunately @strowger did spot the thread and purchased an annual Season just before it was fixed

The way I see it is that the loophole fares are often at the appropriate rate for the journey; by paying those fares you are paying a sensible amount that is possibly at the limit of what is morally acceptable for train companies to charge. The higher fares (eg. York to Leeds, which is ludicrous and easily undercut) are morally unacceptable fares and it is not immoral to use fares that are valid for the journey, but priced at a more appropriate rate.

 

[bb21]

What does everybody think? If anomolies like this exist, is it acceptable to save money in this way?

"Why would it not be acceptable?" would be my question. If it is valid then it is valid.

I don't get into discussions about what is moral and what is not in regard to rail fares. It inevitably leads to some people getting on their high horses and the whole thing ends up in finger-pointing and nastiness, as seen before numerous times on this forum.

If you find something that undercuts what you would otherwise pay, and you are 100% certain it is valid, then fair play and enjoy your savings. If you are not sure whether it is 100% valid and experienced forum members cannot agree, then it depends on your appetite for potential disputes and how much you value your time which you may have to devote to resolving said dispute versus the saving. The operators set the fares, so they need to up their games if their pricing contain errors or anomalies and these undermine their own business cases.

There is no right or wrong about things like this, and certainly no need to feel guilty about having made a legitimate saving. As with all walks in life, if you spent some time and effort and did your research, you would likely pay less than other people in the long run. Such is the way life works. (No, I am not prepared to discuss whether it is right or not for a public service to be charging different people different rates in this thread in case some of you want to go down that route. You may do so in a separate thread.)

 

[xotGD]

What I find morally questionable is that a minority who are 'in the know' get to pay less than the ignorant majority.

 

[yorkie]

What I find morally questionable is that a minority who are 'in the know' get to pay less than the ignorant majority.

morally questionable on whose part?

also how do you define 'pay less'? are you just talking in the context of "anomalies" or are you also including using combinations of tickets, Railcards, slower trains/routes, or what?

 

[neilmc]

My attitude is that many TOCs are out to scam the unsuspecting customer wherever possible by charging exorbitant prices for many journeys, especially into large cities at peak, so if the canny traveller can hit back that's fair game.

A friend from Macclesfield had to make occasional journeys to Birmingham and I told him to split ticket via Stoke - as he has to change trains at Stoke anyway this is a 100% guaranteed and simple saving, hardly an anomaly even, just the result of XC attempting to change a ridiculous fare which can be avoided by buying two "local" tickets, and the "loophole" can only be closed by XC adopting a fair and sensible pricing policy.

Sadly one needs to do the research to save money on "anomalies" in the same way as one saves money on internet or phone deals or good rate mortgages or even knowing the best times to buy reduced items in the supermarket, it's a question of how much it matters to the customer and how much time and effort they are prepared to put in to make that saving.

It's not a moral issue unless there is any lies, deception or actual fraud taking place which is not the case in starting or finishing short on a ticket which permits this.

 

[A Challenge]

I'm writing this with the knowledge that next month I have a ticket that cost less than 6% of the 'market value' (the appropriate return date for the class and time of travel) and less that 15% of twice the cheapest tier of advance single for the journey, but I don't see anything wrong with it, even if it was obviously a mistake in the booking engine, which has now been rectified (so you can't buy more tickets to do the same journey at the price).

 

[xotGD]

morally questionable on whose part?

also how do you define 'pay less'? are you just talking in the context of "anomalies" or are you also including using combinations of tickets, Railcards, slower trains/routes, or what?

On the part of the industry primarily, since it is the lack of fare transparency that creates the situation. However, if those making the saving as a result of an anomaly are doing so with smugness, and inwardly laughing at the mugs sat around them who are paying full price, then I'd include them too.

 

[yorkie]

My attitude is that many TOCs are out to scam the unsuspecting customer wherever possible by charging exorbitant prices for many journeys, especially into large cities at peak, so if the canny traveller can hit back that's fair game.

A friend from Macclesfield had to make occasional journeys to Birmingham and I told him to split ticket via Stoke - as he has to change trains at Stoke anyway this is a 100% guaranteed and simple saving, hardly an anomaly even, just the result of XC attempting to change a ridiculous fare which can be avoided by buying two "local" tickets, and the "loophole" can only be closed by XC adopting a fair and sensible pricing policy.

The good news is that no prior knowledge is needed to obtain this: all someone has to do is use an accredited ticket splitting site (they can even use an online seat selector to get a decent seat as part of the booking process)!

XC won't adjust the cost of Macclesfield to Birmingham to match the cheaper fares because an important part of their income is the additional payments made by people who are not aware of split ticketing sites.

If they reduced the price to match, their income would reduce. The DfT is not prepared to pay the difference between the price that people would pay on split ticket sites and the price that unsuspecting people currently pay on train company's own websites. Therefore the DfT is considering increasing the cost of the cheaper fares and using that money to decrease some of the highest fares. As most journeys by rail are short distance day return fares, the price for most people would rise if this was to occur. However this is unlikely to be politically acceptable. Every so often plans are drawn up to do this, and they are then (rightly) rejected.

Sadly one needs to do the research to save money on "anomalies" in the same way as one saves money on internet or phone deals or good rate mortgages or even knowing the best times to buy reduced items in the supermarket, it's a question of how much it matters to the customer and how much time and effort they are prepared to put in to make that saving.

There are all sorts of analogies that could be made; some more valid than others. It's certainly true to say that it's not a problem unique to rail. I don't see how it can ever be stopped. If people are really fussed about the cost of something, they can make comparisons with other products and see if they can make a saving.

It's not a moral issue unless there is any lies, deception or actual fraud taking place which is not the case in starting or finishing short on a ticket which permits this.

I don't disagree with this, but some people clearly do object to the use of valid tickets in this manner. But then that's their problem, not ours!

I'm writing this with the knowledge that next month I have a ticket that cost less than 6% of the 'market value' (the appropriate return date for the class and time of travel) and less that 15% of twice the cheapest tier of advance single for the journey, but I don't see anything wrong with it, even if it was obviously a mistake in the booking engine, which has now been rectified (so you can't buy more tickets to do the same journey at the price).

That's not Manchester Airport <> Piccadilly via London or something by any chance?

On the part of the industry primarily, since it is the lack of fare transparency that creates the situation.

I'm not sure how you could make fares more transparent?

For all its faults, the British rail industry makes its fares easier to access than just about any other transport industry that I can think of; the fares data is open source after all.

However, if those making the saving as a result of an anomaly are doing so with smugness, and inwardly laughing at the mugs sat around them who are paying full price, then I'd include them too.

Hmm...

(for anyone who can't see images: Image shows Kryten from Red Dwarf with caption "Smug mode engaged")

In all seriousness, I really don't think anyone who gets a good value rail fare goes out with the intention to inwardly laugh at other people; but equally you can't deny people feeling good about finding a bargain, can you?!

On a recent journey from York to Birmingham I was able to provide assistance to someone who had paid more than the cost of valid tickets, but was told his ticket was invalid and would have to pay more, and it ended up with someone else being keen to hear about how to save money for future journeys, so that's two people who will not be overpaying for their XC journeys any more.

 

[Western Sunset]

Is it morally acceptable for certain TOCs to use TIL to pursue people for (so-called) ticketing irregularities?

 

[bb21]

This is getting wildly off topic and I think we are done.

As I mentioned earlier, anyone wishing to discuss a related but off-topic issue feel free to start a separate thread in a suitable area, provided it isn't one which we have already discussed repeatedly before.