Is it just me, or is this wording confusing?

[flitwickbeds]

I've been back and forth with Thameslink on Twitter a few times on this issue and it seems they are confused about their own ticketing rules. 50% of the time I get stopped at the barriers with the operator saying my ticket in invalid, other times (with other gate operator) they let me through.

So, two questions:

(1) Is my ticket valid for travel departing Farringdon at 17:13 heading to Flitwick?
(2) Is it just me, or is the description on Thameslink's site incredibly confusing and contradictory?

Here's my ticket:

Here's what Thameslink says on their website:

And the zonal map from the website:

And here is a poster on the platform at Farringdon, which has a completely different zonal map:

Pretty hard to read, but it says:

EVENING RESTRICTIONS
On Mondays to Fridays, restrictions apply to northbound trains operating during the evening peak period from London King's Cross, London St Pancras International or Moorgate as follows:

- The return portion of Off-Peak Day Return, Off-Peak Day Travelcard and DaySave tickets are not valid for travel where the return journey starts at any station in areas B or C (see map) and ends at a station in area F on trains that depart from King's Cross, London St Pancras International or Moorgate between 16:30 and 19:01

- The above restriction also applies if you join a train in areas D and E with a ticket that is for a journey from a station in areas B or C to a station in area F

- In addition to this, the return portions of Off-Peak Return tickets are not valid for the above journeys on services which depart between 17:30 and 18:30.

These restrictions do not apply when the ticket covers:

- Any journey from area A
- Journeys wholly within areas A, B, C, D and E
- Journeys wholly within areas D, E, F and G
- Any journey to area G
- Any southbound journey (although restrictions may apply to the return portion of certain off-peak tickets issued by other train operators)

So, I am travelling on an Off-Peak Return (NOT Off-Peak Day Return) from Zone B to Zone D in the first map, or Zone C to F in the second map. None of the "restrictions do not apply when the ticket covers..." clauses apply to me, so all of that can be disregarded. I guess my main issue is with the wording "in addition to this" - does this mean that when holding an Off-Peak Return (NOT day return) all the off-peak restrictions apply? If so, why even bother listing the 17:30-18:30 restrictions on this ticket? Under what circumstances would this apply but not the 16:30-17:30 and 18:30-19:01 restriction?

On the ticket is printed restriction 5J (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/5J). This states (quoting relevant bits only):

Not valid on any services which are timed to depart London Kings Cross, London St Pancras International, Moorgate or pass through London St Pancras International after 17:29 and before 18:31, regardless of where you join or leave the service.

I am joining at Farringdon at 17:13, and the train passes through St Pancras at 17:17 (departs 17:18).



As a further point, Thameslink have this week revamped their website. The off-peak page now only says this:

Which doesn't mention Off-Peak Return (NOT day return) tickets at all, suggesting that all off-peak tickets are restricted 16:30-19:00 and there are no special cases for Off-Peak Return tickets...



CONFUSED! (As are Thameslink, apparently).

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the need for such complexity? Why not just bar all Off Peak (Day) tickets to/from London or anywhere nearby on trains that depart or pass through any station in the core between 1630 and 1900, which is roughly what is done at London termini?

The answer to your question, though, is that if the 1713 departs St Pancras before 1730 (I don't know if it does or not), yes it is valid. If after, no it is not.

This, from brfares.com, is what applies to your ticket (see the bottom bit):

RETURN TRAVEL:

Valid on any train EXCEPT
those timed to Depart between
04.30 and 09.30, except:

Arlesey Dep 0925
Ashwell & Morden _____Dep 0921
Bedford_______________Dep 0924
Foxton Dep 0905
Meldreth Dep 0911
Peterborough Dep 0919
Sandy Dep 0916
Shepreth Dep 0908

Not valid on any services
which are scheduled to depart
London Kings Cross, London St
Pancras Intl or Moorgate or
pass through London St Pancras
Intl between 1729 and 1831
(inc), regardless of where_you
join or leave the service.

 

[hangus78]

Both NRE and Thameslink's own website will allow this fare and service combination.

This service leaves St Pancras at 17:18 but is this not the original posters Outward journey? Thus meaning that restriction does not apply.

 

[flitwickbeds]

What is the need for such complexity?

Agreed!

Why not just bar all Off Peak (Day) tickets to/from London or anywhere nearby on trains that depart or pass through any station in the core between 1630 and 1900, which is roughly what is done at London termini?

Off-Peak *day* tickets are restricted in this way. There's nothing I've read which puts into any doubt these are all restricted between 16:30 and 19:01.

The ticket in question is an Off-Peak Return ticket, the outward portion of which is valid on the day of purchase, but the return can be used any day up to a month later without having to specify which day when you buy it. There are hints these are only restricted between 17:30 and 18:30 but then it contradicts itself by saying this is "in addition to" the other off-peak restrictions (16:30-19:01)

 

[flitwickbeds]

This service leaves St Pancras at 17:18 but is this not the original posters Outward journey? Thus meaning that restriction does not apply.

No, this is a return journey using the return portion of the Off-Peak Return ticket. I didn't make that clear in my original post, apologies!

 

[furlong]

For the official answer look at NRE 5J (see 5J printed near the bottom right of the ticket) and check what time the train passes through St. Pancras, which is 17.18 and so before 17.29.

 

[furlong]

If you're having problems, politely point to the 5J on the ticket and remind them what this means. If the advertising/website is incorrect, you can escalate this to the ORR by asking them to investigate the company for a breach of the consumer regulations. If you're ever denied travel on a valid ticket, you can escalate the matter to the DfT as a breach of the franchise agreement.

 

[talldave]

The phrase "In addition to this,..." is superfluous and could just be deleted, which would help reduce the ambiguity.

The second bullet point starting "The above restriction..." is not really a bullet point at all and could be merged into the first bullet point as "This restriction....".

Then the restrictions for the different categories of ticket are clearly segregated.

 

[Muzer]

For the official answer look at NRE 5J (see 5J printed near the bottom right of the ticket) and check what time the train passes through St. Pancras, which is 17.18 and so before 17.29.

+1 to this; as much as I love the site, the restriction code text on BRFares is (IMHO) not to be trusted as the source data is often wrong. National Rail Enquiries is the best way to get the official data.

 

[furlong]

BRFares is (IMHO) not to be trusted as the source data is often wrong.

Because the industry still wants 5-figure licensing fees for access to up-to-date data.

 

[me123]

It's quite clear that the ticket is valid on said train. In the future, politely direct their attention to restriction 5J. The updated website is almost certainly wrong, and even if it isn't can't be enforced because restriction 5J is perfectly clear.

The whole situation is not very clear, but that seems to be because of the similarities in the names of the two tickets. Talldave also makes good points about superfluous words.

 

[Ediswan]

(2) Is it just me, or is the description on Thameslink's site incredibly confusing and contradictory?

Believe it or not, the current version is an improvement on that used by the previous franchisee.

 

[AnkleBoots]

The original post here must be the best researched ever!

 

[Haywain]

The ticket is, without doubt, valid for the services mentioned by the OP. However, it is no surprise that the London Underground staff at Farringdon are not aware of the differences in the tickets types that affect validity. They just don't get National Rail tickets.

 

[talldave]

The original post here must be the best researched ever!

Agree! There should be some payment from GTR for highlighting their muddled communications!! Why create two maps with different zones to impart the same message?!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Off-Peak *day* tickets are restricted in this way. There's nothing I've read which puts into any doubt these are all restricted between 16:30 and 19:01.

Yes there is (which was the root of my present argument with GTR) - the *outward* portion of these tickets (i.e. a return *from* London to e.g. Bedford, or a single in that direction) is valid in the evening peak.

Example:
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=4452&dest=FLT&tkt=CDR