Is it time to relax the 2m social distancing guideline? (WHO guidance is 1m)

[WelshBluebird]

It was the government that came up with the messaging about saving lives, they came up with the 2 metre rule, so yeah. I really do think you can.

Maybe I am too optimistic in thinking that people have brains and can think for themselves then!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The 2m rule is being drummed into everyone it will be hard to get some people out of that mindset.

Supermarkets are covered in signs and tape with queues round the car park.

Railway stations have constant recorded announcements to stay 2m apart to help save lives, topped up with posters everywhere and now huge numbers of seats on trains all taped off so as not to use them.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Relax to 1.5metres in say the middle of June.

 

[yorkie]

Relax to 1m on 1st June I say

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52702067

Denmark’s cafes, restaurants and pubs are reopening, after two months of lockdown.

It’s the latest chapter in Denmark’s phased easing of restrictions.

Social distancing has been scaled back from 2m (6.5ft) to 1m. It means more customers can be seated, making it more viable for restaurants to reopen.

“The two metres was a big issue because it didn't allow us to have enough revenue,” says Jacob Niebuhr, Chairman of Denmark’s Restaurant and Cafe Association.

Denmark is being sensible.

It's madness for us not to fall into line.

 

[carlberry]

I agree and perhaps would go even further. I would reduce the social distancing measure to 1 metre outdoors and in shops but would give pubs and bars the freedom to decide whether to impose social distancing at all. Those that prefer not to would have to display a sign outside along the lines of "social distancing not enforced here. If this bothers you, do not enter".

There are some very small bars and micropubs that, even with a 1 metre rule, would not be able to let in enough customers to be viable. To enable them to survive they need the freedom to set their own rules.

Equally there are some doctors and nurses who are fed up of having to work too many hours, being isolated from their families and seeing their colleagues die from hospital acquired infections and would like to be able to say 'It's OK, this person wanted to set their own rules so we dont have to bother with this one'!

 

[sheff1]

Maybe I am too optimistic in thinking that people have brains and can think for themselves then!

Some use their 'brains' to decide it is safer to jump in front of a moving vehicle than pass within 2m of a person who is (i) statistically very unlikley to have Covid-19 and (ii) even if they do, unlikely to pass it on in a 2 second encounter.

Why do they decide this - seemingly becuase of government advice.

 

[yorkie]

To discuss the wearing of masks, please use the following thread: Cloth masks, scarves and bandanas to be 'encouraged' with no compulsion

(Also please do not use this thread to propose abolishing social distancing either; this thread is purely to debate whether or not to amend the 2m guideline to 1m)

 

[Butts]

The minute they let full planes take off in any number the credibility of Social Distancing becomes untenable and in my view should be abandoned. You are not going to get 1m never mind 2m separation, so the question in reality becomes academic.

 

[yorksrob]

The minute they let full planes take off in any number the credibility of Social Distancing becomes untenable and in my view should be abandoned. You are not going to get 1m never mind 2m separation, so the question in reality becomes academic.

This is very true. They will have to move to another method of infection control.

I was listening to a radio discussion programme yesterday and some journalist was saying "The science tells us that 2m is safe, whereas 1m isn't" which just about illustrates the amount of drivel that has been ingrained in peoples brains.

 

[C J Snarzell]

I have had quite a few different discussions about social distancing and how different scenarios make it impossible to enforce the two metre rule. The London Underground is a prime example of why social distancing is impossible.

The main one I have raised is public houses, bars, restaurants - obviously these places are closed anyway until July at least. Like I have said previously, can the safe two metre rule really work in a Weatherspoons? These places are designed to be social/meeting grounds and many folks will want to interact with others. The problems comes with intoxication when people let their guard down and social distancing goes out of the window.

Another regular sight is the long queues of people you see outside supermarkets and shops. As a short term measure people are adhering to this process but the problem comes in Winter months during times of adverse weather - can people really be expected to queue up in sub zero conditions just to maintain the two metre rule?

CJ

 

[nedchester]

I have had quite a few different discussions about social distancing and how different scenarios make it impossible to enforce the two metre rule. The London Underground is a prime example of why social distancing is impossible.

The main one I have raised is public houses, bars, restaurants - obviously these places are closed anyway until July at least. Like I have said previously, can the safe two metre rule really work in a Weatherspoons? These places are designed to be social/meeting grounds and many folks will want to interact with others. The problems comes with intoxication when people let their guard down and social distancing goes out of the window.

Another regular sight is the long queues of people you see outside supermarkets and shops. As a short term measure people are adhering to this process but the problem comes in Winter months during times of adverse weather - can people really be expected to queue up in sub zero conditions just to maintain the two metre rule?

CJ

Simple answer is no. Along with the fact that people won’t put up with it for much longer.

 

[NorthOxonian]

The main one I have raised is public houses, bars, restaurants - obviously these places are closed anyway until July at least. Like I have said previously, can the safe two metre rule really work in a Weatherspoons? These places are designed to be social/meeting grounds and many folks will want to interact with others. The problems comes with intoxication when people let their guard down and social distancing goes out of the window.

Wetherspoons is one of the few sorts of pubs where it could work - because they're huge. You can also enforce use of the app which minimises queuing at the bar, which is probably the main area you'd come into really close contact with others. I'd also contend that Wetherspoons isn't quite so much of a meeting place - I wouldn't strike up a conversation there the same way I might in a smaller pub with a more pleasant ambience. If any pub can avoid significant transmission, it's probably 'spoons.

My worry (if social distancing remains at 2m) is for the smaller pubs which don't have that degree of space, or that level of technology.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My worry (if social distancing remains at 2m) is for the smaller pubs which don't have that degree of space, or that level of technology.

Would the risk be that much higher if staff did traditional table service with a mask on?

 

[Bantamzen]

Would the risk be that much higher if staff did traditional table service with a mask on?

Table service is definitely a way forward, in fact I'd welcome it.

 

[C J Snarzell]

Table service is definitely a way forward, in fact I'd welcome it.

I do reckon table service is a cautious idea to maintain social distancing - put the problem is with licenced venues is that people always want to interact with one another. For example, you go to a pub with your partner or family, take a seat and while in the pub you see friends/acquaintances/distant family, etc. Are you seriously going to sit at your respective table and not approach people you have not seen for the last few months?

Again, if you do insist on table only service - somewhere like Weatherspoons would have to have a strict entrance policy - customers would only be able to go in if tables were free & remain seated all the time. That would mean having regular door staff and devising a planning strategy to keep everyone segregated and to ensure the whole place does not exceed too many customers. This would be a logistical nightmare to say the least!!!

Weatherspoons were doing table service using phone apps which could keep customers from the bar. Again the issue here is that the older generation, particular people in their 70s & 80s do not use mobile phones or hand held internet devices. Therefore - how would they be served if they could not approach the bar? They would have to have regular table service (employing more staff) or be given a bell to ring!!!

CJ

 

[Bantamzen]

I do reckon table service is a cautious idea to maintain social distancing - put the problem is with licenced venues is that people always want to interact with one another. For example, you go to a pub with your partner or family, take a seat and while in the pub you see friends/acquaintances/distant family, etc. Are you seriously going to sit at your respective table and not approach people you have not seen for the last few months?

Again, if you do insist on table only service - somewhere like Weatherspoons would have to have a strict entrance policy - customers would only be able to go in if tables were free & remain seated all the time. That would mean having regular door staff and devising a planning strategy.

Weatherspoons were doing table service using phone apps which could keep customers from the bar. Again the issue here is that the older generation, particular people in their 70s & 80s do not use mobile phones or hand held internet devices. Therefore - how would they be served if they could not approach the bar? They would have to have regular table service (employing more staff) or be given a bell to ring!!!

CJ

Table service isn't going to be as big as a problem as you might imagine. The UK is fairly unique as a country in that bars here are generally bar service, although as you note Wetherspoons had launched an at-table app (which I've used a few times). However as many people have travelled aboard to places where table service is the norm, I'm fairly confident that most people would adapt pretty quickly. The technological solution will help, but that's not to say it will be the only one employed, you'll note at said chain's pubs that staff are regularly moving around the premises and so the simple addition of a mobile device to their hands will allow them to be able to take orders. Problem solved.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Table service is definitely a way forward, in fact I'd welcome it.

Which would surely put the staff more at risk than if they were stood behind the bar?

 

[Bantamzen]

Which would surely put the staff more at risk than if they were stood behind the bar?

Not really, if anything it would be less as they would only be at a table for a few moments whereas customers at the bar could be there for far longer.

 

[Yew]

Not really, if anything it would be less as they would only be at a table for a few moments whereas customers at the bar could be there for far longer.

Perhaps, but it would probably be easier to add perspex shields to a bar

 

[Bantamzen]

Perhaps, but it would probably be easier to add perspex shields to a bar

But table service would help maintain some distances instead of people crowding at the bar, which would be the point of it in the first place.

 

[BJames]

As people have been talking about wetherspoons, just a couple of hours ago they laid out their potential plans to reopen on July 4th: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/may/22/jd-wetherspoon-pubs-reopen-lockdown-staff-goggles

A couple of key points from the article:

It outlined a series of precautionary measures including:

• Gloves, masks and goggles for staff.
• Protective screens at the till and between tables.
• Ten hand sanitiser bottles per pub.
• Staff told to hold glasses at the base.
• Daily health checks on employees.
• Condiments will come in disposable sachets rather than reusable containers.

The £11m plan will include two staff members per pub, or more in bigger venues, specifically tasked with disinfecting surfaces such as door handles, handrails and card payment machines.

Dedicated staff will also monitor the pub to ensure physical distancing is being maintained, while customers will be encouraged to use one of 10 hand sanitiser points in each pub.

It's interesting but as above, there's a limit to how long this can work before people just say enough. And on the point of intoxication, from speaking to various people this is exactly what happened on quite a few of the VE Day street parties - a few pints or glasses and social distancing was forgotten.

Secondly and more broadly, there's discussion today on whether we should actually consider reducing it to 1 metre. See: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-could-change-to-allow-closer-contact-2-metre
The first bit of the article is interesting:

Britain’s physical distancing advice to stay 2 metres from other people is a “precautionary approach” and could change to allow closer contact, top officials from Public Health England (PHE) have said.

The guidance is out of line with advice in most other countries and with recommendations from the World Health Organisation, which says people should stay just one metre apart.

“We have taken a precautionary approach to say 2 metres apart, full stop,” said Yvonne Doyle, medical director of PHE in evidence to a hearing of the science and technology committee of MPs. “We are still learning about the virus.”

But, she said, the safe distance is still, being discussed and evidence amassed as the end of lockdown restrictions approaches. Doyle said she was aware that a reduction to 1 metre or 1.5 metres could make the difference between businesses re-opening or not.

I am in agreement with others that it will soon be time to start moving to a reduction in distance - that's the best way out of social distancing itself and the absolute best way to allow more businesses to start up and get the economy moving again. I wouldn't be surprised if PHE attempt to drip-feed this to the public in an attempt to reassure people that 2 metres can't work for anything more than the short term.

 

[AM9]

Table service isn't going to be as big as a problem as you might imagine. The UK is fairly unique as a country in that bars here are generally bar service, although as you note Wetherspoons had launched an at-table app (which I've used a few times). However as many people have travelled aboard to places where table service is the norm, I'm fairly confident that most people would adapt pretty quickly. The technological solution will help, but that's not to say it will be the only one employed, you'll note at said chain's pubs that staff are regularly moving around the premises and so the simple addition of a mobile device to their hands will allow them to be able to take orders. Problem solved.

That isn't really relevant as the 'many people who have travelled to places where table service is the norm', are unlikely to see anybody outside their own group who they know in those places. Indeed, a large proportion of UK visitors have very little conversational skills in those countries, so they aren't really getting the opportunity there to get their inhibitons sufficiently dampened by liquid intoxication.

 

[Bantamzen]

That isn't really relevant as the 'many people who have travelled to places where table service is the norm', are unlikely to see anybody outside their own group who they know in those places. Indeed, a large proportion of UK visitors have very little conversational skills in those countries, so they aren't really getting the opportunity there to get their inhibitons sufficiently dampened by liquid intoxication.

As I said, people will adapt. You don't have to circulate much outside your social circles to understand sitting at a table and having your orders taken, especially if it means being able to get out again after months of lockdown. Indeed prior to it, my local Wetherspoons saw a huge uptake in the number of people using the app to order drinks at their table, so in a way for some people it is already becoming the norm.

 

[greyman42]

As I said, people will adapt. You don't have to circulate much outside your social circles to understand sitting at a table and having your orders taken, especially if it means being able to get out again after months of lockdown. Indeed prior to it, my local Wetherspoons saw a huge uptake in the number of people using the app to order drinks at their table, so in a way for some people it is already becoming the norm.

What do you mean by 'social circle'?

 

[AM9]

As I said, people will adapt. You don't have to circulate much outside your social circles to understand sitting at a table and having your orders taken, especially if it means being able to get out again after months of lockdown. Indeed prior to it, my local Wetherspoons saw a huge uptake in the number of people using the app to order drinks at their table, so in a way for some people it is already becoming the norm.

My comment was on the likelihood of many UK drinkers being used to table service on their holidays being good training for any new regime here. That ignores the fact that most drinkers go to pubs/bars on their holidays for different reasons as they go to their local. If it was just to consume alcohol, - they would get it at the supermarket and drink it at home, (saving money as well). Many on here are saying that they want the convivial atmosphere that a pub means to them.
Personally, I don't get much satisfaction from drinking alcohol in a pub surrounding, so it is unlikely to be a vector of infection for me anyway, but this pub thing is being blown up out of all proportion, - uinless British society has a much bigger problem with drink consumption than is admitted.

 

[yorksrob]

I like the change of scene of being in a nice pub and having a few drinks and a read. I'm perfectly happy in a corner on my own.

 

[Bantamzen]

What do you mean by 'social circle'?

The circle of people that folk socialise with.

My comment was on the likelihood of many UK drinkers being used to table service on their holidays being good training for any new regime here. That ignores the fact that most drinkers go to pubs/bars on their holidays for different reasons as they go to their local. If it was just to consume alcohol, - they would get it at the supermarket and drink it at home, (saving money as well). Many on here are saying that they want the convivial atmosphere that a pub means to them.
Personally, I don't get much satisfaction from drinking alcohol in a pub surrounding, so it is unlikely to be a vector of infection for me anyway, but this pub thing is being blown up out of all proportion, - uinless British society has a much bigger problem with drink consumption than is admitted.

So you are not much of a fan of drinking in a pub, fair enough. But you'll forgive me for not agreeing with your assessment as a result.

 

[greyman42]

The circle of people that folk socialise with.

These are unlikely to be all members of the same household. They are much more likely to be friends / workmates from different households so you might as well just forget about 'social distancing'.

 

[Bantamzen]

These are unlikely to be all members of the same household. They are much more likely to be friends / workmates from different households so you might as well just forget about 'social distancing'.

Which pretty soon we will have to do.

 

[AM9]

The circle of people that folk socialise with.



So you are not much of a fan of drinking in a pub, fair enough. But you'll forgive me for not agreeing with your assessment as a result.

As a result of what?