Is it time to relax the 2m social distancing guideline? (WHO guidance is 1m)

[Bletchleyite]

I think you're right about both, however there are also limits to both. I'm already quite bored of my own kichen.

I agree, people are likely to want a couple of days a week in the office, but if that is just a couple of days they might well accept a (potentially much) longer journey.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree, people are likely to want a couple of days a week in the office, but if that is just a couple of days they might well accept a (potentially much) longer journey.

I even miss the commute (although not so much squashed on a 150).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I haven't seen much of that here, in fact walking home from the local Co-op is still quiet an eerie experience with very few people or cars about compared to pre-covid, and not even the sound of kids playing out in their gardens. And judging by some of the local social media groups this is probably not a surprised as many around here are in that 30-something group, and seem grimly determined to hide their entire families away until the every single occupant of the globe has been vaccinated. Still it does have a positive, once the pubs open again it won't be hard to get a table....

Very different round here - people aren't out in droves like London, but definitely more than usual. Though MK is rather a "drive everywhere" type of place given its design, so seeing people walking around is more of a novelty - I wonder will it stick? Definitely plenty of kids playing in gardens, and some out in the "streets" too. (I say "streets"...I live in a 1970s area where houses front onto wide, tree-lined footpaths with the cars hidden away at the back of the houses, and as a result kids play in the "street" like they did before cars were even invented, and I think that's great, to be honest).

The one thing that's really noticeable is reduced background road noise.

Home / flexible working is definitely the way forward in the long run. New Zealand seem to be at least thinking in the right direction, with suggestions of a 4 day week. I'd happily stick in extra hours over 4 days to get an extra day of leisure.

That's an interesting idea, I've sort of done it when weekly commuting (sort of 2/3 day Monday/Thursday to allow travel at more civilised times, longer Wednesday and Thursday to make it up, Friday from home). I can definitely see the attraction.

 

[yorkie]

There are some really interesting and excellent points being made in this thread but...

Can I just remind people this thread is about 'Is it time to relax the 2m social distancing guideline?' (it also has a poll, if anyone is interested in that; see the top of page 1) and there are loads of other threads in this section to discuss other aspects of the current situation

Some threads that cover topics that have cropped up recently in this thread include:

• Coronavirus: How scared should we be?
• Long term social distancing: Impact on public life & public transport?
• My opinion: children are safer if they are attending school
• Remote working preferences (in the longer term)

....and many more! If anything is not covered by an existing thread, feel free to create a new one

 

[Jamesrob637]

I think what we will end up with is having effectively advanced the communication side of tech by between 5-10 years - that is, the home working genie won't go back in the bottle (and that could cause some evening of house prices as people in the SE realise they don't have to live there any more and move somewhere cheaper and nicer, and those SE jobs become available remotely to people elsewhere too), and there may well be a "bonfire of the chain stores" as people buy online instead (and provided people find alternative work I can't really see anything all that bad in either of those two things). Other than that, yes, I'd expect most of the "old normal" to return.

Oh no we don't want the SE folk crowding the SW - having second homes is bad enough they're starting to fill up the bigger Northern cities in the past decade too!

1 meter from June for me. If the WHO says it's acceptable, who am I to argue. It's hard enough keeping your distance when walking/running/cycling along woodland paths/some pavements anyway!

 

[BJames]

1 meter from June for me. If the WHO says it's acceptable, who am I to argue. It's hard enough keeping your distance when walking/running/cycling along woodland paths/some pavements anyway!

Quite - although in the same manner as some have already said (I live zone 5 London), there are a few people diving out of the way at all costs, with others no longer appearing quite so worried. My vote has gone for 1 metre from June too. I always get a little bit irritated when I hear people like Chris Whitty saying that social distancing will probably be needed until the end of the year. Good luck with that.

 

[Bikeman78]

I think you're right about both, however there are also limits to both. I'm already quite bored of my own kichen.

I'll be back to work in the office the first day I'm allowed. Get some peace from the kids fighting whilst I'm trying to work and get to talk to other adults as well.

 

[yorksrob]

I'll be back to work in the office the first day I'm allowed. Get some peace from the kids fighting whilst I'm trying to work and get to talk to other adults as well.

Indeed. I live in hope that they suddenly have some urgent task that can't be done from home, forcing me back for a day !

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Indeed. Particularly as "the old normal" is effectively the product of thousands of years of human evolution, so I expect we'll be heading back to it at some stage.

Agreed but human beings are not rational.

 

[BJames]

Indeed. Particularly as "the old normal" is effectively the product of thousands of years of human evolution, so I expect we'll be heading back to it at some stage.

Actually a very good point. It's why I can't see all these investments e.g. in cycling and walking infrastructure changing after the crisis is over. People won't change their ways if it's more inconvenient for them. Which is exactly why those who are religiously sticking to 2m or more when they are in a very low risk group will, at some point, have to stop doing it - because once society around them gets going and they're still diving across the road every 10 metres to avoid all human life, they're going to find themselves in an unnecessarily difficult position. I really do hope it's relaxed to 1 metre sooner rather than later - it's the logical next step to restoring services and the economy while still retaining caution in society.

 

[Llanigraham]

Here in England, the message coming across from the Scottish (and Welsh) governments is that they do not want English people crossing the border at all. People in my social circle are commenting that, when tourist and hospitality places start to reopen across the UK, they will be looking to visit areas which have been a bit apologetic about asking people to stay away and avoiding areas which have been basically telling people to f-off. One would hope MSPs who represent areas heavily dependant on tourism are, indeed, raising concerns .... but I see no obvious evidence of it.

As a Proud Welshman I would disagree with that.
What we want and what we have been saying is that we want to people to acknowledge that Wales (and Scotland) have different laws made by their own Parliaments, which are more stringent than those in England, and that we want people to abide by those. The biggest problem has been that Boris and his Ministers have kept saying "the UK" in their briefings about the change in lock-down proceedures and not that they only applied to England.

 

[yorksrob]

Actually a very good point. It's why I can't see all these investments e.g. in cycling and walking infrastructure changing after the crisis is over. People won't change their ways if it's more inconvenient for them. Which is exactly why those who are religiously sticking to 2m or more when they are in a very low risk group will, at some point, have to stop doing it - because once society around them gets going and they're still diving across the road every 10 metres to avoid all human life, they're going to find themselves in an unnecessarily difficult position. I really do hope it's relaxed to 1 metre sooner rather than later - it's the logical next step to restoring services and the economy while still retaining caution in society.

Indeed. Although I do think that the cycling and walking infrastructure is a good idea. Some of our towns and cities have become rather unliveable due to traffic, so anything that helps people move around under their own steam is to be welcomed.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed but human beings are not rational.

Perhaps not. But human nature will out. Eventually.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Quite - although in the same manner as some have already said (I live zone 5 London), there are a few people diving out of the way at all costs, with others no longer appearing quite so worried. My vote has gone for 1 metre from June too. I always get a little bit irritated when I hear people like Chris Whitty saying that social distancing will probably be needed until the end of the year. Good luck with that.

Whitty has got on my nerves since the start. A few others have too. Some are fine though. I'll go with the WHO - a body rather than one (seemingly clueless in that department) individual.

 

[Enthusiast]

My local Tesco Express has ticked all the boxes as far as 2m distancing is concerned. It makes you queue outside when the shop becomes about 25% full; they have arrows painted on the floor; they have Perspex screens at the checkouts. What it doesn't have is a building where it is possible, when there are more than two or three people in it, to remain 2m apart. The aisles are not even 2m wide; they insist on filling the shelves opposite the newspapers between 8 and 9 in the morning making it impossible to pick up a paper and abide by the guidance; they keep goods outside (mainly firewood, charcoal and disposal barbecues) along the same wall as they ask you to queue to get in; the exit from the storeroom is between two of the most popular shelves. Yesterday I saw two members of staff gather round a customer at the checkout to sort out a till malfunction (the third, actually operating the till, could not cope with the problem). They were not even 20cm from the customer, never mind 2m. Basically it's a nonsense and "social distancing" has never been exercised there (and they are not alone). No doubt they have a checklist which they send to Head Office every day demonstrating their compliance, so that's alright then.

I've voted for the abolition of "Social Distancing" from June 1st because there are so many situations where it is simply not possible and it's just not happening. It should be replaced with advice such as "Try not to remain close to others for too long. Don't cough or sneeze over them, just try to be sensible."

 

[underbank]

Indeed. Particularly as "the old normal" is effectively the product of thousands of years of human evolution, so I expect we'll be heading back to it at some stage.

I've been fascinated about the end of empires such as Aztec, Roman, Egyptian, etc. Centuries of development, technology etc seem quite easy to forget.

 

[northernchris]

I voted to reduce to 1m from July 1st. Gives the Government chance to rethink their comms and get the R number down across the country as it's apparently close to 1 in Yorkshire and the North East. It really does need to change though to 1m to ensure viability of many businesses

Home / flexible working is definitely the way forward in the long run. New Zealand seem to be at least thinking in the right direction, with suggestions of a 4 day week. I'd happily stick in extra hours over 4 days to get an extra day of leisure.

Before Covid struck I was working a 9 day fortnight which was great, hoping to go back to it once things settle down

 

[yorksrob]

I've been fascinated about the end of empires such as Aztec, Roman, Egyptian, etc. Centuries of development, technology etc seem quite easy to forget.

I think the instinct for humans to gather and socialise is ingrained far beyond any particular civilisation.

I'm not sure whether teleconferencing etc will last a thousand years though !

 

[infobleep]

Germany has gone for 1.5m so could we follow that instead of 1m?

 

[MikeWM]

I’ve said 1m from next week, to offer some reassurance to those still nervous, though it should go entirely *very* shortly afterwards (2 or 3 weeks after, at the latest).

Having just made my first train journey in 2 months (!) and spent the afternoon in Cambridge - it seems pretty much over anyway. Very few people seem to be paying the 2m thing any attention. Let’s get everything going again, as soon as possible, in as normal a way as possible.

 

[yorkie]

Germany has gone for 1.5m so could we follow that instead of 1m?

I don't think it's worth the upheavel just to gain 50cm; 1.5m would have been adequate earlier but it needs to go down to 1m as soon as practicable, and abolished entirely at some point this Summer, otherwise many businesses are going to be unviable and many more people are going to lose their livelihoods.

 

[underbank]

1.5 metres isn't something that Joe Public can recognise easily. I think we'd be far better to forget about specific distances and just say don't get within touching distance of anyone else, i.e. the length of your arm. It approximates to a metre for the average person and is very simple which is clearly what Joe Public wants. Just a matter of respecting personal space.

 

[northernchris]

but it needs to go down to 1m as soon as practicable, and abolished entirely at some point this Summer, otherwise many businesses are going to be unviable and many more people are going to lose their livelihoods.

I'd like to think that would be the case, but I can see the social distancing lasting for months

 

[Bletchleyite]

1.5 metres isn't something that Joe Public can recognise easily. I think we'd be far better to forget about specific distances and just say don't get within touching distance of anyone else, i.e. the length of your arm. It approximates to a metre for the average person and is very simple which is clearly what Joe Public wants. Just a matter of respecting personal space.

"Don't get within arms length of somebody" is not a bad way of putting it, though I suppose you'd need to explain it's *both* of your arms.

I dislike people being within 1m of me anyway, it means I have to crane my neck down at them to have a conversation. Really grates when I step back and they step closer!

 

[yorkie]

I'd like to think that would be the case, but I can see the social distancing lasting for months

Loads of businesses would go bust; I don't think people will tolerate it when they realise the huge impact on many peoples livelihoods.

 

[northernchris]

Loads of businesses would go bust; I don't think people will tolerate it when they realise the huge impact on many peoples livelihoods.

I hope public opinion does change as I fully agree on the impact to businesses. But I wouldn't be surprised if come September there's still queues to get in to Asda, Costa are takeout only and LNER won't allow travel without a reservation

 

[The Ham]

Loads of businesses would go bust; I don't think people will tolerate it when they realise the huge impact on many peoples livelihoods.

Which was why I suggested the expansion of the use of bubbles (like the schools are using), it would make the ability to track and trace easier than a full reopening, but would allow many more businesses to function well enough to survive.

As an example sitting inside in a pub counts as one of your bubbles as long as you install the pub's app to order drinks (and it's not just the likes of Wetherspoon who are able to do this) if the pub has capacity for more than 10 people and the travels are less than 2m apart and people should be say more than 1m apart. For those pubs who can't justify an app they could take orders by phone as the numbers trying it would be fairly small, alternatively you could have to email your number and then the pub calls each table in turn or as they see the glasses getting low. Payment could even be by online services (such as Pay Pal).

Now that's probably not enough to allow some to survive, and so they will probably have to diversify (such as offering take out or acting as a local shop).

Whilst there'll be many who will need their second bubble for work and for other uses, there will be still quite a few working from home for whom they could use their second bubble for going to the pub.

Larger pub buildings could have a mix of bubble drinking and social distancing drinking in different areas to maximise the numbers they can serve without needing to be someone's second bubble.

In time you increase the number of bubbles people can have and even set rules for changing bubbles (probably waiting 2 weeks between being in one bubble and another).

You could have staying in accommodation (hotel, holiday let, etc.) counting as a bubble where there's a need to interact in a way which isn't possible by social distancing.

If we start schools off as a trail from the 1st June, everyone else gains a second bubble from the 22nd June and a third bubble from the 17th July that would allow many to be able to go on holiday during the summer or go and do day trips, go out for meals and the like.

A trip to a theme park should be possible, numbers in the park would need to be much lower, but again you could be given a set time to join a queue (with queues of only a few people at a time to allow reasonable gaps between people). The likes of Merlin already have Q-bot systems to allow you to go on the most rides without standing in queues so much, so it would just be a case of expanding that to everyone.

Many zoos (and other similar animal based attractions) could still maintain social distancing however upon entry you would need to provide contact details so that contact teaching would be fairly easy for everyone who attended on any given day. Again numbers would need to be lower and they'd need consider how to limit spread between staff members and the public so that keepers can remain in their bubbles without being put at significant risk from a visitor (this may require the closing of some paths to the public and/or the division of wider paths between staff and public).

 

[NorthOxonian]

Which was why I suggested the expansion of the use of bubbles (like the schools are using), it would make the ability to track and trace easier than a full reopening, but would allow many more businesses to function well enough to survive.

As an example sitting inside in a pub counts as one of your bubbles as long as you install the pub's app to order drinks (and it's not just the likes of Wetherspoon who are able to do this) if the pub has capacity for more than 10 people and the travels are less than 2m apart and people should be say more than 1m apart. For those pubs who can't justify an app they could take orders by phone as the numbers trying it would be fairly small, alternatively you could have to email your number and then the pub calls each table in turn or as they see the glasses getting low. Payment could even be by online services (such as Pay Pal).

Now that's probably not enough to allow some to survive, and so they will probably have to diversify (such as offering take out or acting as a local shop).

Whilst there'll be many who will need their second bubble for work and for other uses, there will be still quite a few working from home for whom they could use their second bubble for going to the pub.

Larger pub buildings could have a mix of bubble drinking and social distancing drinking in different areas to maximise the numbers they can serve without needing to be someone's second bubble.

In time you increase the number of bubbles people can have and even set rules for changing bubbles (probably waiting 2 weeks between being in one bubble and another).

You could have staying in accommodation (hotel, holiday let, etc.) counting as a bubble where there's a need to interact in a way which isn't possible by social distancing.

If we start schools off as a trail from the 1st June, everyone else gains a second bubble from the 22nd June and a third bubble from the 17th July that would allow many to be able to go on holiday during the summer or go and do day trips, go out for meals and the like.

A trip to a theme park should be possible, numbers in the park would need to be much lower, but again you could be given a set time to join a queue (with queues of only a few people at a time to allow reasonable gaps between people). The likes of Merlin already have Q-bot systems to allow you to go on the most rides without standing in queues so much, so it would just be a case of expanding that to everyone.

Many zoos (and other similar animal based attractions) could still maintain social distancing however upon entry you would need to provide contact details so that contact teaching would be fairly easy for everyone who attended on any given day. Again numbers would need to be lower and they'd need consider how to limit spread between staff members and the public so that keepers can remain in their bubbles without being put at significant risk from a visitor (this may require the closing of some paths to the public and/or the division of wider paths between staff and public).

That just sounds like a huge faff. How would I know exactly who is in my bubble? What if I'm a regular at more than one pub (or heaven forbid want to visit a new one!)? The whole administration of it seems like a nightmare and most people would just break the rules without realising.

 

[nedchester]

That just sounds like a huge faff. How would I know exactly who is in my bubble? What if I'm a regular at more than one pub (or heaven forbid want to visit a new one!)? The whole administration of it seems like a nightmare and most people would just break the rules without realising.

Completely unenforceable and impractical.

1 m from 1/6 and then normal from July. We need to get back to normal.

 

[The Ham]

That just sounds like a huge faff. How would I know exactly who is in my bubble? What if I'm a regular at more than one pub (or heaven forbid want to visit a new one!)? The whole administration of it seems like a nightmare and most people would just break the rules without realising.

You wouldn't need to know who was in your bubble, just what you're bubble was. In the case of pubs the pub would just need to advise those who were within their bubble that they've had a case.

If we don't have a system which allows pubs to have more than just social distancing drinking then there's a good chance that many will close, potential closing both you wish to visit. If you wish to use more than one then one then you can be within the bubble of one and do social distancing in the other, until such time as you are aloud enough bubbles to go to both.

This would be a short term thing, as I explained we could be up to 3 before the school summer holidays and therefore maybe 5 by the restart of school in September. That should be enough to allow those who wish to frequent two pubs, work close to others and visit parents. Of course if the infection rate starts to grow then we'd have to lockdown again, however with the ability to define bubble numbers more locally if there's a problem in any given area.

Yes there going to be people who break the rules and it'll be hard to enforce, that's going to be accepted unless we have a police state, however it's about easing from where we are without increasing the risk too fast whilst limiting the work needed to track and trace.