Is McDonald's deserting the high street?

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I was surprised to see it at Berlin Hbf recently. I don't remember Germany having scrambled egg in the past.

They’ve done it for years. I used to be a fan of the old “Häm änd Eggs” which in a great piece of misinterpretation was literally that (not bacon) but was lovely.

 

[richw]

Yes, it is a definite strategy of theirs, partly driven by their franchising model. Lower rents/rates, better able to fit to their new style of restaurant, parking availability is a big issue, and the ability to offer drive thru improves turnover a lot (although I don't know why!)

When I was a manager for mcds the 3 stores I worked in, each had around 65% of trade through the drive thru.

My franchisee shut one store due to high rent and rates making it unprofitable for him.
My original franchisee sold to another due to mcds hq telling him he had to spend nearly a million per store on their new style refurbishments. He was approaching 60 and decided it was unviable. Had another franchisee not come forward it’s likely his branches would have closed.

The vast majority are actually company owned. There's surprising few that are franchises. It's also not unknown for the company to buy a franchise out.

In the uk around 70% are franchised. The company only keep the most lucrative for themselves.

 

[cactustwirly]

Here in Leicester both high street branches are busy, they are very useful for a bite to eat after a nights clubbing.

 

[Welly]

And Guy's Hospital lost its branch to a Science Gallery attraction.

I should think so! I cannot imagine a less apt site than a hospital for a McD outlet (apart from a crematorium...) ! Yes, I know several major NHS hospitals actually have fast food outlets in their foyers!

 

[Ianno87]

Chorley is another one that lost its High Street branch (replaced by an edge of town drive thru 10-15 years ago).

I guess it comes down to:
-Increasing town centre rents
-McDs seem to be pushing the 'all-day- market much more with McCafé (i.e. stop by in the car to pick up a coffee mid morning/mid afternoon), whereas town centres are traditiobally more lunchtime oriented but fairly dead the rest of the day
-Related to previous, the abundance of chains like Costa Coffee offering town centre lunch alternatives (with a better public image - although I do think McDs crap/unhealthy reputation is a little unfair, IMHO)

 

[Qwerty133]

Here in Leicester both high street branches are busy, they are very useful for a bite to eat after a nights clubbing.

Although the Market Street branch can often be full of office workers sharing a cup of tea between 6 while eating their packed lunches.
The Fosse Park branch however seems to have shake and Mcflurry machines that are broken 99% of the time...

 

[Busaholic]

Nice rant. Pity you don’t understand the basics of business rates.

Rates are a central taxation on business premises. Central Government set the rules (including empty property rates), local Councils implement the rules, collect the money and send it to HM Treasury, Treasury then give some of it back to the collecting authority.

This is due to change in 2020, but thats a long time away. I agree the system is a mess, every Government says they will review it, but its an easy tax so they won’t.

I understand the basis well, having paid business rates for nearly thirty years; the more the individual council collects the more they will get back, as a generalisation, and many councils/finance officers/individual councillors are very happy to go along with the system. One prominent councillor in my area was caught on tape telling a business owner that they preferred empty shops to ones run by individuals, as the individual could get into financial difficulties whereas most commercial properties were owned by large companies who would continue paying. Actually, much more of a problem are the planners who allow the out-of-town developments with their free parking; plenty of opportunity for corruption, as detailed by 'Private Eye' ad nauseam over decades, but there are seemingly no votes in it, so on we go. Rateable Values are an absolute scandal too, with the likes of Amazon paying peanuts because they don't have plate glass windows to display their wares.

 

[Iskra]

To some extent is Wetherspoons damaging them on the high street? Proper plates, proper cutlery, similar price, similar standard of food - and a pint?

Different markets if you ask me. Wetherspoons is not exactly fast food.

I wonder if city centre locations attracted more anti social behaviour, kids buying a drink between 5 etc. It's why a lot of them close seating areas early too

I work in management for a large coffee company. Our high street stores suffer a lot more anti-social behaviour than other stores but, it's not usually 'kids' that are the problem. It's more usually drunk people, substance abusers and people with mental health conditions that cause damage or crime within our stores. The 'kids' are generally polite and respectful- any issues (usually making too much noise) with them are easily solved with a quick word and it usually works.

It's worth noting that the majority of Maccy D's are franchises, not owned by the global fast-food giant. Whilst unlike Burger King they manage to get the food very consistent between outlets, you'll notice big differences in the quality of service between restaurants run by different operators. The Dewsbury one closed down due to the franchisee deciding that the unused 2nd floor would make an ideal cannabis farm, though a combination of crappy service, poor hygiene, anti-social behaviour and competition from the drive-thrus at Heckmondwike and Birstall didn't help. Nor did the fact that Dewsbury as a town at the time was dying on its arsenal even more than it is now.
That same subsidiary also ran the old Burger King in Huddersfield, which was famous around the county for terrible and slow service!

To get decent BK it needs to be cooked fresh, the food deteriorates very quickly and is supposed to be served within 4 (I think, or it might be 8) minutes of being cooked. Sadly, a lot of their staff don't seem to adhere to these rules and it sits there for a lot longer and then gets served in a sub-standard condition. I nearly always ask for them to cook my food fresh, which they usually don't mind doing.

 

[Mojo]

I reckon that the average spend at out-of-town McDonalds is probably higher than those in town centres; note how almost all of the vouchers that they flood the market with (£1.99 for burger and chips, etc. that you see in the Metro, on the back of bus tickets, handed out on the street etc.) isn't valid in outlets with a drive through. In my experience the clientele in town centre branches seems to be a bit more rough and ready as well.

To get decent BK it needs to be cooked fresh, the food deteriorates very quickly and is supposed to be served within 4 (I think, or it might be 8) minutes of being cooked. Sadly, a lot of their staff don't seem to adhere to these rules and it sits there for a lot longer and then gets served in a sub-standard condition. I nearly always ask for them to cook my food fresh, which they usually don't mind doing.

For breakfast, I prefer McDonalds but lunch/dinner Burger King is definitely a better offer though. I didn't use to go there very often due to the prices, but they always have deals on their app as well as vouchers you can print off the internet that makes them very competitive price-wise with their rivals. I find the quality of Burger King to be very variable though, in terms of standards and ambience of their stores definitely worse than McDonalds, for instance the branches are often dirty with litter strewn across the tables, damaged furniture, staff with limited social skills, slow-moving queues, variable drink offering (some branches have self-service drink machines with numerous flavoured drink options whereas others have the fizzy drink-only which are operated by staff behind the counter), different card acceptance, and opening hours that differ between different sources which differ with reality. Went into one branch of BK near a major Underground station at about 1.45am in the summer - the website says it's open 11am-11pm Mon-Sun, the App says it's open 9am-2am Mon-Sun, and the sign on the door says 9am-Midnight Sun-Thu and 9am-2am Fri-Sat (the latter is correct) - the chairs were on the tables, half the lights were off and the staff were vacuuming with a power cable trailing across the floor, but they were happy to serve me. McDonalds seems much better with opening hours that (generally) reflect reality and a more consistent product whichever branch you visit.

 

[Tetchytyke]

North Shields switched to become a Burger King. It's the same restaurant in the same unit, just with a different sign over the door. Presumably BK offered a better deal for the franchisee.

Durham shut about ten years ago, and became a branch of RBS.

 

[Lrd]

Is there still a Wimpy down at Clarence Pier in Southsea? Must be the only one left by now...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Is there still a Wimpy down at Clarence Pier in Southsea? Must be the only one left by now...

There is! There was one left in Swanage last year and I have seen another elsewhere recently, though I forget exactly where.

 

[D365]

Is there still a Wimpy down at Clarence Pier in Southsea? Must be the only one left by now...

There is! There was one left in Swanage last year and I have seen another elsewhere recently, though I forget exactly where.

Peterborough

In fact, there's still a fair number trading.

 

[tbtc]

Different markets if you ask me. Wetherspoons is not exactly fast food

True, but there's so much more "High Street" competition now than pre-millennium.

Greggs have become commonplace reasonably far south (and Pound Bakery etc in some places).

We have a dozen coffee shops in most large city centres.

Pretty much every pub does food now - and Wetherspoons etc are good at advertising a "beer and a burger" (it costs more and it takes longer but it's an actual "meal" rather than something to fill you up for ten minutes).

Supermarkets have "local" branches in a lot of High Streets offering snacks.

You can get a sandwich / "meal deal" in loads of places - Boots/ Tesco etc can offer a cheap sandwich as a loss leader, to entice you in to buy other things.

Since McDonalds can't be making huge profits on a £1.29 double cheeseburger, it's not too surprising that some become uneconomic. We lost a reasonably large one at the top of the Moor in Sheffield City Centre, but it's not as if any other "burger" place opened to compensate (we lost our only "High Street" Burger King a few years ago too - there's a tiny one in the train station but not one in the actual city centre).

 

[Iskra]

True, but there's so much more "High Street" competition now than pre-millennium.

Greggs have become commonplace reasonably far south (and Pound Bakery etc in some places).

We have a dozen coffee shops in most large city centres.

Pretty much every pub does food now - and Wetherspoons etc are good at advertising a "beer and a burger" (it costs more and it takes longer but it's an actual "meal" rather than something to fill you up for ten minutes).

Supermarkets have "local" branches in a lot of High Streets offering snacks.

You can get a sandwich / "meal deal" in loads of places - Boots/ Tesco etc can offer a cheap sandwich as a loss leader, to entice you in to buy other things.

Since McDonalds can't be making huge profits on a £1.29 double cheeseburger, it's not too surprising that some become uneconomic. We lost a reasonably large one at the top of the Moor in Sheffield City Centre, but it's not as if any other "burger" place opened to compensate (we lost our only "High Street" Burger King a few years ago too - there's a tiny one in the train station but not one in the actual city centre).

I agree completely, the competition is intense at the moment. Greggs are a huge part of that new competition IMO.

McDonalds won't be making much profit on the burgers, it's the sides and especially drinks where they will make most of their profit. Drinks especially; they fill half a cup with ice, then a small amount of postmix syrup and a bit of water probably costs about 15p. A coffee sold at £1.39 will probably cost less than 30p to produce. That £1.29 cheeseburger offer is primarily to draw people in, in the hope that they spend more than that £1.29 which I'm guessing most folk will do.

'Casual dining restaurants' are probably taking a large share of McDonalds and BK's market too at the moment. There are lots of 'fancy/posh' burger places opening everywhere plus restaurants like Nando's where you can spend not too much more than you would at a traditional fast food outlet (unless you start consuming alcohol) and get a better product in a better environment. McDonald's seem to be reacting to this by doing table service.

I've only been living in Sheffield for about 10months and I don't go to the centre apart from work normally, so I'm not able to comment on the specifics, apart from: the train station BK charges outrageous prices!

 

[Starmill]

I guess Manchester city centre is a rather bigger market than most of the places listed, which are mostly small or medium sized towns, but a new one opened a couple of years ago so there are now three there, although one is inside Manchester Arndale. I have never seen any without large crowds and one is 24h.

 

[Iskra]

I reckon that the average spend at out-of-town McDonalds is probably higher than those in town centres; note how almost all of the vouchers that they flood the market with (£1.99 for burger and chips, etc. that you see in the Metro, on the back of bus tickets, handed out on the street etc.) isn't valid in outlets with a drive through. In my experience the clientele in town centre branches seems to be a bit more rough and ready as well.
For breakfast, I prefer McDonalds but lunch/dinner Burger King is definitely a better offer though. I didn't use to go there very often due to the prices, but they always have deals on their app as well as vouchers you can print off the internet that makes them very competitive price-wise with their rivals. I find the quality of Burger King to be very variable though, in terms of standards and ambience of their stores definitely worse than McDonalds, for instance the branches are often dirty with litter strewn across the tables, damaged furniture, staff with limited social skills, slow-moving queues, variable drink offering (some branches have self-service drink machines with numerous flavoured drink options whereas others have the fizzy drink-only which are operated by staff behind the counter), different card acceptance, and opening hours that differ between different sources which differ with reality. Went into one branch of BK near a major Underground station at about 1.45am in the summer - the website says it's open 11am-11pm Mon-Sun, the App says it's open 9am-2am Mon-Sun, and the sign on the door says 9am-Midnight Sun-Thu and 9am-2am Fri-Sat (the latter is correct) - the chairs were on the tables, half the lights were off and the staff were vacuuming with a power cable trailing across the floor, but they were happy to serve me. McDonalds seems much better with opening hours that (generally) reflect reality and a more consistent product whichever branch you visit.

My observations are similar and I think there are two very different approaches to staffing in BK and McDonalds. BK: bare minimum staff who multi-task and are trained in all aspects of the job. McDonalds: loads of staff, but each job is broken down into each individual task and one staff member sticks to one mind-numbingly boring task and probably doesn't understand the task that the person next to them does (production line). But, the McDonalds approach seems to deliver a better product and environment.

 

[radamfi]

Crawley bucks the trend with three in the town centre. Although one of them is in Asda and another is in a car-based leisure park, although still close to the town centre. If that wasn't enough, there is drive-through one about 10 minutes walk away from the leisure park.

I guess Manchester city centre is a rather bigger market than most of the places listed, which are mostly small or medium sized towns, but a new one opened a couple of years ago so there are now three there, although one is inside Manchester Arndale. I have never seen any without large crowds and one is 24h.

There are four in the city centre. The new Piccadilly one, Arndale, Oxford Street and St Ann's Square. The one in Victoria station closed recently.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I only use Burger King for breakfasts now,

Is there still a Wimpy down at Clarence Pier in Southsea? Must be the only one left by now...

There's still one in Huddersfield town centre on Cloth Hall Street, there were two for a while until the newer, larger one became the now-closed Burger King. There was one by the bridge in Taunton when I lived there but I have no idea if it's still going.
EDIT: Apparently not, according to the link posted by D365.

Back to McDonald's, my main purchases there are coffees, though I'll sometimes have a wrap or a double cheeseburger (always without ketchup- seriously, try it. You're welcome!). I keep seeing the "posh" burgers they've started doing and they look pretty good, but if I'm going to a Maccys I'm generally wanting something quick and cheap. If I wanted a proper, sit-down type thing I'd go somewhere with a better ambience than a fast-food outlet. They're in danger of falling between two stools with the "gourmet" stuff!

Greggs are absolutely awful for food, stuff that claims to be warm but isn't. Their coffees are nice though. If I'm getting a pasty or something I'll use an independent bakery if possible, or failing that Pound Bakery are far better than Greggs, as the food is actually hot!

 

[Mojo]

Greggs are absolutely awful for food, stuff that claims to be warm but isn't.

I'm not sure why so many people obsess over Greggs, I don't find most things they sell particularly cheap, or good value. Having said that, their breakfast offer is very well priced, £3 for a midi-baguette with your choice of bacon, egg (omelette) and/or sausage and a hot drink.

 

[Mag_seven]

I'm not sure why so many people obsess over Greggs, I don't find most things they sell particularly cheap, or good value. Having said that, their breakfast offer is very well priced, £3 for a midi-baguette with your choice of bacon, egg (omelette) and/or sausage and a hot drink.

Funnily enough I tried breakfast in Greggs in Harrow the other week (I was actually looking for a spoons but couldn't find one). The bacon baguette was surprisingly tasty!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

...a double cheeseburger (always without ketchup- seriously, try it. You're welcome!).

I always have my cheeseburgers plain ( no pickle or mustard either - just the burger, the cheese, the roll ) even the ones I make at home.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I always have my cheeseburgers plain ( no pickle or mustard either - just the burger, the cheese, the roll ) even the ones I make at home.

That's just throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

 

[Parallel]

The one in Shrewsbury's town centre has closed in recent years too.

The one in Bath city centre is still going strong, and has security present on Friday and Saturday nights!

 

[Iskra]

Greggs... Their coffees are nice though.

Sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree. Cheap, yes. Nice, no. Observations at Wakefield Westgate: Greggs and Costa right next to each other. People get their food from Greggs and then go next door to Costa for a decent coffee.

I don't get their food either, it's okay but not particularly good value anymore and yes, often cold.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

There was a news story in the papers a couple of days ago about Wimpey looking to expand. Thier Bournemouth branch closed and became a Burger King branch, probably over 20 years ago. Don't know off-hand if their Poole branch still exists.

Just taking a walk through my local shopping centre and high street the number of fast food, cafes and coffee shops there are I have to wonder how they all make enough profit for them to survive

 

[xc170]

McDonalds breakfasts are okay if you're after something fast and cheap, wouldn't bother with anything else though.

In Tamworth, our town centre McDonalds is now a Costa, the Mcdonalds moved to an industrial estate on the outskirts of the town opposite Wilnecote station.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree. Cheap, yes. Nice, no. Observations at Wakefield Westgate: Greggs and Costa right next to each other. People get their food from Greggs and then go next door to Costa for a decent coffee.

I don't get their food either, it's okay but not particularly good value anymore and yes, often cold.

On reflection, what I should've said was "Their coffees are the only thing that's palatable, and even then only if there's nothing better- such as in Dewsbury town centre."...

 

[SteveP29]

In Bournemouth there is, well at least was a McDonald's in the ADSA store, occupying what used to be the ASDA cafe

I can confirm it was still there in July, we had an hour layover between trains at Bournemouth and at half 9 at night, it was the only place open in the vicinity

 

[Antman]

I only use Burger King for breakfasts now,

There's still one in Huddersfield town centre on Cloth Hall Street, there were two for a while until the newer, larger one became the now-closed Burger King. There was one by the bridge in Taunton when I lived there but I have no idea if it's still going.
EDIT: Apparently not, according to the link posted by D365.

Back to McDonald's, my main purchases there are coffees, though I'll sometimes have a wrap or a double cheeseburger (always without ketchup- seriously, try it. You're welcome!). I keep seeing the "posh" burgers they've started doing and they look pretty good, but if I'm going to a Maccys I'm generally wanting something quick and cheap. If I wanted a proper, sit-down type thing I'd go somewhere with a better ambience than a fast-food outlet. They're in danger of falling between two stools with the "gourmet" stuff!

Greggs are absolutely awful for food, stuff that claims to be warm but isn't. Their coffees are nice though. If I'm getting a pasty or something I'll use an independent bakery if possible, or failing that Pound Bakery are far better than Greggs, as the food is actually hot!

According to the manager at my local Greggs they explain on their website why they don't keep food hot although I've never bothered to check. I find their products generally ok although I find Percy Ingle bakers in the London area much better.

As for McDonalds drive throughs seem the in thing now, occasionally I might have breakfast at a McDonalds but otherwise never use them.