Is MK1 carriage stock on mainline excursions going to need central door locks and retention tanks after march 2023

[Dave S 56F]

I just pose this question on this new thread about the use of MK1 T.S.O. carriage stock used on charter trains on National U.K. Rail network supposedly a order by O.R.R. says that the MK 1 or 2 carriages will have to be fitted with retention toilet tanks and central door locks which S.R.P.S. and W.C.R.C tour operaters both are fitting out their stock with retention tanks on some of their MK.1 coaches but how do they get round the old secondary lock system been a big bolt on the old slam doors and stewards to police the vestibules so no passengers only going to the buffet bar or toilets are allowed through and not to hang near the droplight windows in the vestibule according to tour operater rules, but what I'm asking is on rail forums to any members who may know more about this O.R.R. order for march 2023 basically will there still be a market for steam and diesel charters or will all MK .1 and 2 stock have to be fitted with central locks to comply with N.R. and O.R.R. Rules and regulations or is this the end of mainline steam diesel charters after March 2023?
But I was told by a steward that the MK 1 coaches would be retrofitted out with the new features to comply anyone any thoughts on this on rail forums?

 

[JonathanH]

There is already a working design for central door locking on mark 1 coaches fitted to the London Underground 4TC unit, the Swanage 117s and, at one point, the 121s used by Chiltern and Arriva Trains Wales.

 

[StephenHunter]

There is already a working design for central door locking on mark 1 coaches fitted to the London Underground 4TC unit, the Swanage 117s and, at one point, the 121s used by Chiltern and Arriva Trains Wales.

The Hastings DEMU as well.

 

[DanNCL]

There is already a working design for central door locking on mark 1 coaches fitted to the London Underground 4TC unit, the Swanage 117s and, at one point, the 121s used by Chiltern and Arriva Trains Wales.

The Hastings DEMU as well.

Was also fitted to the pair of 421s that were retained for the Lymington branch up until 2010.

 

[Cowley]

Was also fitted to the pair of 421s that were retained for the Lymington branch up until 2010.

It’s a case of adapt and change to carry on operating isn’t it?
It might cost a fair chunk of money but I think we all knew that it would have to happen eventually didn’t we?
This is the way that things go, and I’m sure that a lot of operators will have seen this coming and planned for it hopefully.

 

[Nym]

There is already a working design for central door locking on mark 1 coaches fitted to the London Underground 4TC unit, the Swanage 117s and, at one point, the 121s used by Chiltern and Arriva Trains Wales.

I would put a lot of money on this not being workable or acceptable today, there has been a lot of obsolescence since then and now, and a lot of changes to and less willingness to bend standards.

So likely to be a new design, or WCRC doing one of their usual 'things'.

 

[NSEFAN]

I would put a lot of money on this not being workable or acceptable today, there has been a lot of obsolescence since then and now, and a lot of changes to and less willingness to bend standards.

So likely to be a new design, or WCRC doing one of their usual 'things'.

Out of interest, what makes you say that the existing solutions wouldn't be allowed onto other Mk 1 stock? If any solution is to be found then it would surely need some form of exemption, given that these days you would never build a public transport vehicle like a Mk 1.

 

[Mat17]

Couldn't they use (convert to vacuum brake etc.) Some loco hauled mk3s? Surely there must be plenty available? Or have their ranks been totally decimated?

I will note of course that a MK3 really doesn't give the same experience as a MK1 not by a long chalk.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Couldn't they use (convert to vacuum brake etc.) Some loco hauled mk3s? Surely there must be plenty available? Or have their ranks been totally decimated?

I will note of course that a MK3 really doesn't give the same experience as a MK1 not by a long chalk.

You could easily operate the bolts using vacuum, the observation saloons which were vacuum hauled had vacuum operated steps to allow dignitaries a graceful exit from the vehicles when not at a platform.

 

[JonathanH]

Couldn't they use (convert to vacuum brake etc.) Some loco hauled mk3s? Surely there must be plenty available?

No

Or have their ranks been totally decimated?

Yes

 

[43096]

Couldn't they use (convert to vacuum brake etc.) Some loco hauled mk3s? Surely there must be plenty available? Or have their ranks been totally decimated?

Vacuum brake Mark 3s? That’s just hilarious. Better off putting some proper brakes (air) on the vac brake kettles. High time that the vacuum brake was removed from the mainline.

 

[Mat17]

Fair point then.

 

[AM9]

Couldn't they use (convert to vacuum brake etc.) Some loco hauled mk3s? Surely there must be plenty available? Or have their ranks been totally decimated?

Don't all Mk3s have eth, air conditioning (hence non-opening windows so difficult to ventilate when pulled by a kettle)?

 

[swt_passenger]

There is already a working design for central door locking on mark 1 coaches fitted to the London Underground 4TC unit, the Swanage 117s and, at one point, the 121s used by Chiltern and Arriva Trains Wales.

…and also the SWT Lymington units. In service 15 years ago, so as you say there shouldn’t be any need to reinvent it…

 

[Nym]

Out of interest, what makes you say that the existing solutions wouldn't be allowed onto other Mk 1 stock? If any solution is to be found then it would surely need some form of exemption, given that these days you would never build a public transport vehicle like a Mk 1.

Like I said. Obsolescence or changes to standards.

 

[Deepgreen]

I just pose this question on this new thread about the use of MK1 T.S.O. carriage stock used on charter trains on National U.K. Rail network supposedly a order by O.R.R. says that the MK 1 or 2 carriages will have to be fitted with retention toilet tanks and central door locks which S.R.P.S. and W.C.R.C tour operaters both are fitting out their stock with retention tanks on some of their MK.1 coaches but how do they get round the old secondary lock system been a big bolt on the old slam doors and stewards to police the vestibules so no passengers only going to the buffet bar or toilets are allowed through and not to hang near the droplight windows in the vestibule according to tour operater rules, but what I'm asking is on rail forums to any members who may know more about this O.R.R. order for march 2023 basically will there still be a market for steam and diesel charters or will all MK .1 and 2 stock have to be fitted with central locks to comply with N.R. and O.R.R. Rules and regulations or is this the end of mainline steam diesel charters after March 2023?
But I was told by a steward that the MK 1 coaches would be retrofitted out with the new features to comply anyone any thoughts on this on rail forums?

Everything else aside, that must be the longest sentence I have ever read on this forum!

 

[stj]

Maybe First/Dining Trains will be the future of Rail Charters not aimed at people who may hang out of windows.

 

[JonathanH]

Maybe First/Dining Trains will be the future of Rail Charters not aimed at people who may hang out of windows.

The regulator doesn't want people near open windows on trains - that doesn't mean the only market is for first / dining trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fitting bars solves the leaning out issue. The South East TOCs did it years ago.

 

[Fincra5]

Fitting bars solves the leaning out issue. The South East TOCs did it years ago.

Even before that NSE did it on EPBs for the NLL!

 

[JonathanH]

Even before that NSE did it on EPBs for the NLL!

...and British Rail even before that in the 1970s on routes around Newcastle and the northern Cumbrian Coast.
https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/9777

DMS(L) E50632 is most prominent, with its first class yellow stripe having been crudely painted over in rail blue. Newcastle, 06/10/1976

The picture clearly shows a 101 and 108 unit fitted with window bars.

 

[2392]

The North Yorkshire Moors is in the process of adapting their MK1s toilets with retention loos/tanks. Network Rail are also involved both financially with a grant and designing the fixtures and fitting. Some of those being adapted are the "Fuss Free" disabled access vehicle they're in the process ofdoing about a dozen so far a a semi experimental bases to develop the design.

 

[blackfive460]

Don't all Mk3s have eth, air conditioning (hence non-opening windows so difficult to ventilate when pulled by a kettle)?

Indeed they do which is why you either have a generator vehicle in the set or have a diesel attached to provide electrical power.

 

[Mat17]

501s had bars on the windows too.

 

[Sm5]

Liverpool and Manchester Railway had bars on windows for Chinese coaches since 1831

File:Coaches etc employed on the Railway, from Bury's Liverpool and Manchester Railway, 1831 - artfinder 8928.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

not sure about internal door lock mechanisms, but being without toilet, and quite definitely some had coachmen to act as steward, they probably arent that far from a mk1 exemption…even has 2 barrier vehicles at the rear.

oh and for other standards.. even in 1831 Yellow was first class.

 

[73128]

Don't all Mk3s have eth, air conditioning (hence non-opening windows so difficult to ventilate when pulled by a kettle)?

most rakes have a generator in a brake vehicle somewhere in the fornation already, to provide power when freight locos without ETH are powering the train.

 

[colchesterken]

What about the system fitted to GA mk3s. they had a bolt at the top of the door sounded like it was operated by a solenoid
Could they buy the 2nd hand equipment from the scrappers ?

 

[43096]

What about the system fitted to GA mk3s. they had a bolt at the top of the door sounded like it was operated by a solenoid
Could they buy the 2nd hand equipment from the scrappers ?

It's a) a bit late for that as vehicles have gone, b) in any case many of the vehicles were sold/donated for re-use and c) the likes of Sims aren't interested in re-selling such bits, it's not what they're set up to do.

 

[BigB]

Various operators are looking at this, and however it is eventually done, interoperability is key here. You need to ensure that the controls work throughout the entire train, especially important if you are considering ever hiring in a few coaches from another operator.

The locks and controls also need to work with steam/diesel/electric traction, and when stationary e.g. if locos are changed outwith a station such as at Bescot Yard. Not all operator sets run with a generator so either they are solenoid operated using low current so batteries can hold them on, or operators need to start adding generators. Or another way we are yet to draw up on the back of an envelope..
Oh and they need to automatically release (or be released) in the event of an accident too.

And the agreed design needs to be ORR/NR approved too. They are both quite open that there is no point trying to obtain and fit redundant parts, the costs for new components will probably be cheaper, though design and fitting are the "real" costs.
It is highly unlikely that Mk3 parts - even if available - would fit into Mk1 body shells, so that idea is probably a non-starter, even if available.

And finally... unlike toilet tanks, there is not the same funding available, which adds another challenge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With regard to standardisation, given the number of CDL Mk2 and Mk3 stock about it would surely make sense to follow that in terms of the communications protocols.